Is there any hard evidence whatsoever in the Madeleine McCann case?

[sadie]

GNR called 10.41 arrived 11pm.

PJ called by GNR arrived 12 midnight.

Kate says she saw that Madeleine's toy Cuddle Cat had been left behind, but was careful not to touch it in case it held a clue to who took her.
 
She says: "I knew straight away a crime had been committed, we had no doubt about that. We were very conscious of not touching things."

I erred considerably on the "safe side" because I rarely look facts up any more.  Eyesight probs.

So both lots of Polkice were considerably after the alert at 10 pm.  Even the GNR did not get there for an hour and the PJ about 2 hours.  Kate and Gerry must have been in a blind panic ... almost demented I would imagine.


Kate was speaking in your extract .... and probably they both thought that the crime scene was the bedroom.

Gerry is a different person ... and a go-getter.  He has an inquisitive mind and would want to know if it were possible to raise the shutters from outside..   I bet he never thought twice about the rights and wrongs of touching anything outside



But the GNR, when they finally arrived, did not close off the crime scene.   They should have known better.

[pegasus]

I wonder if any of those inadequate prints were the forensic woman's?

That is is obviously the one person who did not make the marks. IMO the marks on the outside of the shutter are mainly by GM and DW (amateurs had who never opened a shutter from outside before), with a much smaller contribution by the earlier opener (who probably had done it before).

[pegasus]

I erred considerably on the "safe side" because I rarely look facts up any more.  Eyesight probs.

So both lots of Polkice were considerably after the alert at 10 pm.  Even the GNR did not get there for an hour and the PJ about 2 hours.  Kate and Gerry must have been in a blind panic ... almost demented I would imagine.


Kate was speaking in your extract .... and probably they both thought that the crime scene was the bedroom.

Gerry is a different person ... and a go-getter.  He has an inquisitive mind and would want to know if it were possible to raise the shutters from outside..   I bet he never thought twice about the rights and wrongs of touching anything outside



But the GNR, when they finally arrived, did not close off the crime scene.   They should have known better.

Your last point is very interesting and we do have one important bit of hard evidence about this - the fact that after the GNR commander arrived there was a long time with only one GNR man near the apartment (other two were searching the town). One man alone can't guard the front and the back - it's impossible. Anyone could have gone in and out and the lone GNR man wouldn't have seen.

[sadie]

Your last point is very interesting and we do have one important bit of hard evidence about this - the fact that after the GNR commander arrived there was a long time with only one GNR man near the apartment (other two were searching the town). One man alone can't guard the front and the back - it's impossible. Anyone could have gone in and out and the lone GNR man wouldn't have seen.

I take your point pegasus

But he could have locked the front door or the patio doors .... and altho not foolproof, that would have helped.

[pegasus]

I take your point pegasus

But he could have locked the front door or the patio doors .... and altho not foolproof, that would have helped.

IMO the hard evidence is that 3 GNR statements state that for a period there was only 1 GNR near the apartment, maybe we discuss the risks of this on a later day another thread.

[pegasus]

Sorry to go on about fingerprints and handmarks but IMO they are the most definite hard evidence in the case.
Here are some marks on the outside of the shutter.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6209.0;attach=5094;image
Have a look at the solution by the experts in the Dispatches film.
Very clever but why would anyone try to open or close the shutter from inside with their hands twisted so the thumbs are outside, when there is an strap there which opens or closes the shutter with ease?

[Anna]

Sorry to go on about fingerprints and handmarks but IMO they are the most definite hard evidence in the case.
Here are some marks on the outside of the shutter.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6209.0;attach=5094;image
Have a look at the solution by the experts in the Dispatches film.
Very clever but why would anyone try to open or close the shutter from inside with their hands twisted so the thumbs are outside, when there is an strap there which opens or closes the shutter with ease?

Yes, they do look like thumbprints and I never believed that they were made from inside.

[Angelo222]

The two plastic sticking out things at the bottom of the shutter are plastic bump stops which as Anna earlier stated prevent the shutter from rising too far.

[pegasus]

The two plastic sticking out things at the bottom of the shutter are plastic bump stops which as Anna earlier stated prevent the shutter from rising too far.

Thanks, agreed, to stop rising too far, but IMO they are probably metal like the window.

[mercury]

Wonderful

[Angelo222]

Thanks, agreed, to stop rising too far, but IMO they are probably metal like the window.

No, they are plastic and provide some protection just like a rubber bumper on a modern car.

[pegasus]

Yes, they do look like thumbprints and I never believed that they were made from inside.

On Dispatches film the experts say a person is standing inside, the shutter is high, and the person is inside "easing" it down, with hands close together, their thumbs outside and fingers inside. The bed location and the fact there is a strap there make that unlikely IMO and what would be the point?. I do not know the answer to this yet but I think the person must be outside and it is probably one of the "disbelief" tests from outside just after the alarm?   

[pegasus]

No, they are plastic and provide some protection just like a rubber bumper on a modern car.

Maybe you are right but they are hollow tube would plastic be strong enough?

[mercury]

I said that the fingerprint at exactly 45.24 and exactly 45:31 in https://youtu.be/xCKceTe1J20?t=45m19s
"was definitely not made from just inside the bedroom window, and it was definitely not made from just outside the bedroom window".
Actually the person who made that print (at 45.24 and 45:31) made it while standing either in the lounge or on the balcony.
And no it wasn't Mr or Little Ms Tickle.

This is an example of how indisputable hard evidence (a fingerprint) can be grossly misinterpreted by a crime expert to reach a false conclusion.

(edited to correct times)

Dont  believe you

[Anna]

On Dispatches film the experts say a person is standing inside, the shutter is high, and the person is inside "easing" it down, with hands close together, their thumbs outside and fingers inside. The bed location and the fact there is a strap there make that unlikely IMO and what would be the point?. I do not know the answer to this yet but I think the person must be outside and it is probably one of the "disbelief" tests from outside just after the alarm?

It is possible that someone came in the front door or balcony door and opened the blinds with the strap and passed madeleine out.
If this was the case, then all of the marks would have been from Gerry and Diane trying to open them.
However if these sticky out things were made of rubber or plastic, they probably wouldn't be strong enough to lift the shutter and they would have to revert to lifting it by the bottom. looking at all the smudges, it appears that someone tried though or they were stronger than they look.