Is there any hard evidence whatsoever in the Madeleine McCann case?

[pegasus]

Pegasus. 

You keep pushing that Madeleine ran.

I dont believe she did.


I am utterly convinced from evidence / pointers afterwards, that she was abducted .... and that she still lives.

It seems like normal behavior to me. If I was woken by noises and sights at my window I would run from that room. It fits IMO with the hard evidence in that room - 1. the window has no autolock, 2. the shutter has no lock, 3. the door is at the opposite end of the room to the window.

[misty]

Someone in another town or country probably UK had a key to 5J. The key was not available to the PJ and GNR handlers. It was not available from MW or from OC or from any of the local property management companies. So they opened a window. Not rocket science, nor is 5A where it is obvious the person who opened the window did not have a door key that's why they intended to climb in a window instead. Same at 5G, and maybe at 4A and 5L also, no key so use window.

Who, in all likelihood, would have known the owner/occupiers of 5J over the preceding 5 or so years?

[pegasus]

If she ran & hid - she would have been found.
If she ran for help - why didn't she meet a single human being who would have reunited her with her parents?

Very good point and question. But staying on topic I  can find no other explanation possible for the hard evidence in the child bedroom. Other theories of that bedroom including Mr Amaral's are collections of unlikely behavior and ridiculous lies or distractions which are IMO impossible.

[sadie]

Very good point and question. But staying on topic I  can find no other explanation possible for the hard evidence in the child bedroom. Other theories of that bedroom including Mr Amaral's are collections of unlikely behavior and ridiculous lies or distractions which are IMO impossible.

Pegasus

You have forgotten tht Madeleine returned from tea time absolutely exhausted.  She had to be carried.

And then she was too tired to go out and play, as she normally loved to do.

I think that she was already drugged at tea-time.


And furthermorwe, I think that she was drugged a second time in the apartment by the lifter.   I dont think that she knew a thing about what was going on.   She "slept" thru it all.

[pegasus]

Pegasus

You have forgotten tht Madeleine returned from tea time absolutely exhausted.  She had to be carried.

And then she was too tired to go out and play, as she normally loved to do.

I think that she was already drugged at tea-time.


And furthermorwe, I think that she was drugged a second time in the apartment by the lifter.   I dont think that she knew a thing about what was going on.   She "slept" thru it all.

Your "exhausted" is a very good argument against Mr Amaral's theory that the child woke up for no reason (as acted in his film). But here is another piece of hard evidence -
The metal shutters are noisy inside the room if the window is open while the shutter strap is operated.

[pathfinder73]

Pegasus

You have forgotten tht Madeleine returned from tea time absolutely exhausted.  She had to be carried.

And then she was too tired to go out and play, as she normally loved to do.

I think that she was already drugged at tea-time.


And furthermorwe, I think that she was drugged a second time in the apartment by the lifter.   I dont think that she knew a thing about what was going on.   She "slept" thru it all.

And the twins aswell? How extraordinary.

That was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

[misty]

And the twins aswell? How extraordinary.

That was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Do you accept FP's recollections of that night as totally honest?
Why do you think the twins did not stir?

[pegasus]

Pegasus

You have forgotten tht Madeleine returned from tea time absolutely exhausted.  She had to be carried.

And then she was too tired to go out and play, as she normally loved to do.

I think that she was already drugged at tea-time.


And furthermorwe, I think that she was drugged a second time in the apartment by the lifter.   I dont think that she knew a thing about what was going on.   She "slept" thru it all.

That would involve a very unlikely level of planning to make sure only those three drinks have something added at tapas tea time but not other childrens.

[Anna]

More and more posts are mounting up that are not on topic.
 Could we please get back on "Hard evidence" while we wait for someone to move your posts.
They are too interesting to delete, really. A lot can go on the new thread "what/where................"

[pegasus]

Hard evidence = PJ photo, taken that night, of the left cupboard in the adult bedroom.
On the floor of the cupboard is nothing visible.
On the first shelf up is a large jumbled pile of many unfolded clothes, of many colours.
On the second shelf up is a large bag/case.
On the third shelf up is nothing visible.
On the fourth shelf up is a small item.
Above that, the top doors are closed, we can not see in there.

[sadie]

Your "exhausted" is a very good argument against Mr Amaral's theory that the child woke up for no reason (as acted in his film). But here is another piece of hard evidence -
The metal shutters are noisy inside the room if the window is open while the shutter strap is operated.

I do not think that the shutters were opened from the outside.   I think that the lifters first job was to raise the shutters and open the window from inside.
-  Escape route
-  Encouragement from outside for a fearful lifter
-  To pass ?chloroform and maybe instruct on its administration
-  To throw a little light on the scene, from the poor "masked" street lighting  Maybe someone outside had a torch which they shone in to illuminate specific parts of the room?
-  To give a false impression that Madeleine had left of her own initiative .... so mess up the  search
-  To take the investigators eye of the fact that the front door was used for entry and for carrying Madeleine away.  So there must be a key involved.  To have a key, points to the likelyhood of there being a connection to someone from OC and via that to the perps.
-  Possibly to disipate fumes and other smells from the room.

At the time she was lifted, I think that Madeleine was already drugged/ sedated to some extent ... drugged at teatime or maybe just before tea, at the creche?  And that is why she was so tired that afternoon, that she had to be carried home and also was too tired to go out for her surely favourite daily play withn her friends.

Then she was further drugged before carrying her off

But I think that she had to be further drugged to ensure that she did not scream out.

So all this, Pegasus, to say that I think the shutters were opened from inside the room before opening the windows, so pretty quiet.



Additionally, I think that there are three peeps involved, altho two could have just about managed it.
I found it VERY interesting that SY were interested in three peeps.


Oh, and of course, I have multiple pointers that Madeleine was taken up to Porto.  Vila Nova de Gaia (VNG) to be precise.


But I am listening to you.

[sadie]

Pointers,pointers, pointers and not one jot of evidence.

A bit like you lot.

You have only ONE supposed pointer ... and that has no forensic backing !

ONE POINTER WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE ... the dogs..

It makes you look rather silly
... and VERY cruel, castigating The Mccanns as you do, on NO EVIDENCE.



I have a multitude of pointers, which fit together perfectly, but I share NO names despite having them.
What a shame that I cannot share them with you.

[stephen25000]

A bit like you lot.

You have only ONE supposed pointer ... and that has no forensic backing !

ONE POINTER WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE ... the dogs..

It makes you look rather silly
... and VERY cruel, castigating The Mccanns as you do, on NO EVIDENCE.






I have a multitude of pointers, which fit together perfectly, but I share NO names despite having them.
What a shame that I cannot share them with you.

You have your pointers sadie.

Which are in fact your opinions.

However, that's all they are, unless you can provide evidence to back them up.

[Alice Purjorick]

More and more posts are mounting up that are not on topic.
 Could we please get back on "Hard evidence" while we wait for someone to move your posts.
They are too interesting to delete, really. A lot can go on the new thread "what/where................"

We could do that on one quite short post I feel 

[Anna]

We could do that on one quite short post I feel 

It is more to do with discussing the hard evidence.
Fingerprints from the window, was a good discussion and Pegasus found some very interesting information on them. 
You are correct in that there is very little in Hard evidence to be found.
However, the Topic heading is what the postings should really be about and not theories.