The Quality of Witnesses in the Case.

[DCI]

Furthermore, there were heavy floor length blue curtains in front of the white net ones.

Yes zoom in and the blue curtain is also raised!

[G-Unit]

Furthermore, there were heavy floor length blue curtains in front of the white net ones.

Which were open though. No wind, no whoosh, no slamming doors;

At around 10pm, the interviewee went to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before. She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm

[Lace]

Firstly Martin Smith agreed with his claim to be 80% sure it was Gerry.

Yvonne Smith's evidence wasn't dismissed. It was simply thought nothing useful could be gleaned from it which would to the investigation forward.

If you were not there how can you have any idea which one of the Gaspar's starement is the most accurate ?

And there is not one independent witness starement that puts Gerry inthe tapas bar just before Kate's alert.

Over to you.

The waiter stated all of the Tapas friends were seated at the table when he took the orders for dinner.

He served all the dinners apart from one.

When the alert was raised,   Kate came back and said 'Gerry Madeleine's gone'   or similar,   if Gerry wasn't there then who was she talking to?

The waiter said when they all left all the dinners had been eaten apart from a piece of steak left on one plate.

[Benice]

Only the dossier question was aimed at you.. do you dislike those people as you do anonymous letter writers?

The second part was in keeping with the topic not aimed at you specifically.

I can understand why the compilers would not want to be identified.   But I also assume they did identify themselves to the police.     

Are you willing to identify yourself with your own personal details on here - or in fact anywhere publicly on the internet that's connected to the McCann case?    If the answer is 'No' then you should need no further explanation.

However, with regard to Yvonne Martin's decision to write an anonymous letter.   What dangers would identifying herself have posed?

[ShiningInLuz]

I have no idea. It was up to the PJ to verify and cross-check.

Mrs Fenn's testimony, for example, could have been important and shouldn't have been that difficult to verify and cross-check, but it doesn't seem to have been. A bit late now.

Pamela Fenn's statement is dated 20 Aug 2007.  How does one verify a crying incident from 1 May 2007 nearly 4 months later?

This aspect was followed up in Rachael Oldfield's rog statement.  She was in 5B looking after a sick child on 1 May 2007.  Did she hear crying, she was asked.  Her reply was that that she had gone to bed around 9 PM and did not hear crying.

You can still cross-check on this story today.  Kate McCann's phone records show that she was busy answering her phone on 1 May 2007, after leaving the Tapas, and somewhat earlier than the crying incident, so if Madeleine cried that night for 75 mins, Kate is one heartless bitch.

Tweak Mrs Fenn's statement to 2nd May 2007, and everything fits.  Kate's book says Madeleine put it as that night.  I believe some of the other rogs cover Madeleine's comment re crying on 2nd May.  And 2nd May was the stop-out night, as attested by all and sundry. (OK by quite a few people!)  The phone records support this (but do not prove it).

Let me see - what are the options?

Pamela Fenn was talking tosh.  That does not seem right as statements and Kate's book alike refer to a crying incident.

It happened, and it happened on 1st May. Kate's phone record disagrees.  Rachael Oldfield might have slept well.  Mrs Fenn was right.  So Kate is cruel beyond belief.

It happened, but on 2 May.  So Pamela Fenn was one day out 4 months later.  The phone records match.  There was no sick child right next to 5A.  The overall timings match the T9 statements, and the waiters serving them.  And Kate has Madeleine saying it the next morning.  (By the way, the Pamela Fenn info surfaced quite some time before her statement date.)

Note that if Madeleine cried for an extended period, whether it was 1st May, or 2nd May, then it does not paint the McCanns as caring parents running frequent checks. 

In fact, the whole 'frequent checks' reported by the T9 simply falls over.  How can you visit 5B, frequently, and not hear kids in 5A crying?

Having dug that lot out of the files, let me return to my original question.  How would the PJ have verified that in Aug 2007?  I can guess at it, but neither the phone records, Mrs Fenn's statement, Kate's book, or the rog statements prove what happened.

For that, I would need an independent witness who heard the crying, remembers the date, remembers the length of crying, and can locate it to 5A or nearby.  Or one who can, unequivocally, trash the crying incident.

The reality is we have real life witnesses.  And quite a lot of obfuscation on top.

[Lace]

Pamela Fenn's statement is dated 20 Aug 2007.  How does one verify a crying incident from 1 May 2007 nearly 4 months later?

This aspect was followed up in Rachael Oldfield's rog statement.  She was in 5B looking after a sick child on 1 May 2007.  Did she hear crying, she was asked.  Her reply was that that she had gone to bed around 9 PM and did not hear crying.

You can still cross-check on this story today.  Kate McCann's phone records show that she was busy answering her phone on 1 May 2007, after leaving the Tapas, and somewhat earlier than the crying incident, so if Madeleine cried that night for 75 mins, Kate is one heartless bitch.

Tweak Mrs Fenn's statement to 2nd May 2007, and everything fits.  Kate's book says Madeleine put it as that night.  I believe some of the other rogs cover Madeleine's comment re crying on 2nd May.  And 2nd May was the stop-out night, as attested by all and sundry. (OK by quite a few people!)  The phone records support this (but do not prove it).

Let me see - what are the options?

Pamela Fenn was talking tosh.  That does not seem right as statements and Kate's book alike refer to a crying incident.

It happened, and it happened on 1st May. Kate's phone record disagrees.  Rachael Oldfield might have slept well.  Mrs Fenn was right.  So Kate is cruel beyond belief.

It happened, but on 2 May.  So Pamela Fenn was one day out 4 months later.  The phone records match.  There was no sick child right next to 5A.  The overall timings match the T9 statements, and the waiters serving them.  And Kate has Madeleine saying it the next morning.  (By the way, the Pamela Fenn info surfaced quite some time before her statement date.)

Note that if Madeleine cried for an extended period, whether it was 1st May, or 2nd May, then it does not paint the McCanns as caring parents running frequent checks. 

In fact, the whole 'frequent checks' reported by the T9 simply falls over.  How can you visit 5B, frequently, and not hear kids in 5A crying?

Having dug that lot out of the files, let me return to my original question.  How would the PJ have verified that in Aug 2007?  I can guess at it, but neither the phone records, Mrs Fenn's statement, Kate's book, or the rog statements prove what happened.

For that, I would need an independent witness who heard the crying, remembers the date, remembers the length of crying, and can locate it to 5A or nearby.  Or one who can, unequivocally, trash the crying incident.

The reality is we have real life witnesses.  And quite a lot of obfuscation on top.

No it doesn't all fit if you change the crying incident to the 2nd of May,  Kate spent the night in with the children on the 2nd.

Children get days mixed up,  she probably meant as I have stated earlier the crying on the 1st of May when Amelie was crying and woke Sean and Madeleine,  but it was later than Mrs. Fenn said in her statement,  I think she could have got the timing wrong.

[G-Unit]

The waiter stated all of the Tapas friends were seated at the table when he took the orders for dinner.

He served all the dinners apart from one.

When the alert was raised,   Kate came back and said 'Gerry Madeleine's gone'   or similar,   if Gerry wasn't there then who was she talking to?

The waiter said when they all left all the dinners had been eaten apart from a piece of steak left on one plate.

This waiter or another?

He remembers there being about 9 people in total. He states that he received the food orders from the group.

Later, between 22.00 and 22.30, when the witness was in the kitchen, he was informed by a colleague that in the meantime a client had entered the restaurant shouting and that afterwards the whole English had left in a panic. The witness' colleague told him that this individual had said that a child had disappeared. A few minutes later the witness noticed great agitation, with many people everywhere searching for the child.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAQUIM-J-M-BAPTISTA.htm

He also said this during an informal discussion with the PJ;

The first to leave was about 40/45 years old (tall, skinny, white complexion, with large [a full head of] hair of color gray) and the period of his absence was about 15 minutes, being that they had to [re-]heat his food, which had cooled;
- The second to leave (about 40/45 years of age, having the physical characteristics of the first, but having less bulky hair) did so for about 30 minutes, and that shortly after he returned, all left the table, except for an elderly person, who told him that a child had disappeared, the daughter of a member of the group, due to which he thought that the second person to leave could have been the father of the child;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAPAS-EMPLOYEES.htm

[Lace]

This waiter or another?

He remembers there being about 9 people in total. He states that he received the food orders from the group.

Later, between 22.00 and 22.30, when the witness was in the kitchen, he was informed by a colleague that in the meantime a client had entered the restaurant shouting and that afterwards the whole English had left in a panic. The witness' colleague told him that this individual had said that a child had disappeared. A few minutes later the witness noticed great agitation, with many people everywhere searching for the child.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAQUIM-J-M-BAPTISTA.htm

He also said this during an informal discussion with the PJ;

The first to leave was about 40/45 years old (tall, skinny, white complexion, with large [a full head of] hair of color gray) and the period of his absence was about 15 minutes, being that they had to [re-]heat his food, which had cooled;
- The second to leave (about 40/45 years of age, having the physical characteristics of the first, but having less bulky hair) did so for about 30 minutes, and that shortly after he returned, all left the table, except for an elderly person, who told him that a child had disappeared, the daughter of a member of the group, due to which he thought that the second person to leave could have been the father of the child;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAPAS-EMPLOYEES.htm

The waiter who took the order for dinner stated that the whole group was sat at the table when he took the order.

The only meal he held back was the steak as Russell had gone to his apartment when Jane came back.   When they all left the table all the meals had been eater apart from some steak,  Russell hadn't had time to eat all of his.

Dianne Webster stated in her statement that Kate came screaming back to the table and said 'Gerry Madeleine's gone'    now unless it had been agreed that Dianne said that in her statement,   and that she was in on some sort of plan,  can't think for one moment why anyone of them would be,   then Kate was talking to Gerry.


edited to change Matthew to Russell.

[G-Unit]

The waiter who took the order for dinner stated that the whole group was sat at the table when he took the order.

The only meal he held back was the steak as Russell had gone to his apartment when Jane came back.   When they all left the table all the meals had been eater apart from some steak,  Russell hadn't had time to eat all of his.

Dianne Webster stated in her statement that Kate came screaming back to the table and said 'Gerry Madeleine's gone'    now unless it had been agreed that Dianne said that in her statement,   and that she was in on some sort of plan,  can't think for one moment why anyone of them would be,   then Kate was talking to Gerry.


edited to change Matthew to Russell.

Sorry. Which waiter? Name? Statement link? The one I quoted said he took the orders.

[ShiningInLuz]

No it doesn't all fit if you change the crying incident to the 2nd of May,  Kate spent the night in with the children on the 2nd.

Children get days mixed up,  she probably meant as I have stated earlier the crying on the 1st of May when Amelie was crying and woke Sean and Madeleine,  but it was later than Mrs. Fenn said in her statement,  I think she could have got the timing wrong.

What?  Kate spent the night in with the children on the 2nd.  Where does this come from?

Gerry went home (late) before Kate.  Kate arrived (even later) and slept in the spare bed in the children's bedroom.

[DCI]

Sorry. Which waiter? Name? Statement link? The one I quoted said he took the orders.

Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira saw Madeleines parents both arrive for dinner at 8.45pm and this corroborates Gerry himself when he stated that he and Kate left their apartment at 8.35pm

Ricardo recalls that only one of the Tapas 9 had his meal held back and this is something that a waiter never gets wrong.  That person was Russell O'Brien who was on bedroom duty looking after his ill daughter until relieved by partner Jane tanner at 9.40.  Ricardo confirms his return to the table at 9.45pm.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm

[faithlilly]

Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira saw Madeleines parents both arrive for dinner at 8.45pm and this corroborates Gerry himself when he stated that he and Kate left their apartment at 8.35pm

Ricardo recalls that only one of the Tapas 9 had his meal held back and this is something that a waiter never gets wrong.  That person was Russell O'Brien who was on bedroom duty looking after his ill daughter until relieved by partner Jane tanner at 9.40.  Ricardo confirms his return to the table at 9.45pm.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm

Seems a bit of a mish mash of half remembered details and while the waiter claims one of the group returned about 9.45 he doesn't specify who.

[G-Unit]

Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira saw Madeleines parents both arrive for dinner at 8.45pm and this corroborates Gerry himself when he stated that he and Kate left their apartment at 8.35pm

Ricardo recalls that only one of the Tapas 9 had his meal held back and this is something that a waiter never gets wrong.  That person was Russell O'Brien who was on bedroom duty looking after his ill daughter until relieved by partner Jane tanner at 9.40.  Ricardo confirms his return to the table at 9.45pm.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm

He also says;

When asked, he says that he does not remember whether the parents arrived together or whether they were the first or last to arrive at the table.
When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45.
When asked, he says that he does not remember anyone having been absent from the table for a few instants.
Dinner would end at about 21.45, a few minutes later the witness looked at the table and saw that there was nobody there and one of his colleagues told them that all the guests had left the table in a hurry.
The witness was asked to keep Russell?s meal warm. After a certain amount of time (he is not able to be exact), he was asked to serve Russell, who had returned to the table. He remembers that the rest of the group had practically finished their main courses. Asked if he remembers having seen all the elements of the group at this time, he cannot remember exactly. He also cannot state the length of time Russell was away from the table. The witness states that he had already served all the clients of the bar and for this reason, believes that Russell was away for some time.

[G-Unit]

Whooshing like this, when Rebelo opened window

I can see no nets on 3rd May 2007;

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_16_small1.jpg

[ferryman]

Any word, yet, on who commented on Gerry's absence from the restaurant at the point of Kate's alert

(if, indeed, he wasn't there)?

An extra ordinary omission that no one should comment (if he wasn't there).