Author Topic: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?  (Read 180739 times)

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Offline DCI

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #270 on: May 04, 2015, 03:36:34 PM »
Do you think the Welsh ones came much cheaper? They didn't find anything either, as I recall.

Eddie would have been £10 per day supplied by Yorkshire police.
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Offline Eleanor

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #271 on: May 04, 2015, 03:40:09 PM »
2006 definitely.

30 December 2005

PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. "She can detect minute quantities of blood that cannot be seen with the human eye," he said. "She is used at scenes where someone has tried to clean it up. If blood has seeped into the tiles behind a bath where a body has been, she can find it."

Mr Ellis and Mr Grimes came up with a special training regime to focus on Keela's remarkable skills. It has proved so successful that the FBI has inquired about it. "The FBI is very interested in how we work because they don't have this sort of facility in-house and they are looking at setting up their own unit," Mr Ellis said.
 
Paul Ruffell, of K9 Solutions, a security firm specialising in dog units, said he was amazed at Keela's abilities. "I've been working in this business for 25 years and I've never heard anything like it," he said.

ANIMAL MAGIC
 
£200,000 DOG
 
Keela crime scene investigation dog, South Yorkshire Police
 
Pay none. Charges £530 a day plus expenses for services. Earned almost £200,000 last year.

Maddie hunt: Send in dogs The Sun
 
By Ian Hepburn and John Askill
Published: 23 May 2007
 
Stubborn Portuguese police chiefs are refusing to let the world's best sniffer dogs join the hunt for Madeleine McCann.
 
Senior British cops last night urged officers leading the inquiry to accept help from UK dog teams before it is too late.
 
Two dogs attached to Britain's National Policing Improvement Agency have developed such powerful tracking skills they can follow a scent for miles, even one up to 28 days old.
 
By sniffing an item of Maddie's clothing, they could trace a trail that might finally unlock the mystery of the four-year-old's disappearance.
 
Police in the Algarve appear no nearer to finding Maddie 20 days after she was snatched from her bed in the family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz. But the sniffer dogs are still being snubbed.
 
A senior UK police source said: "It is an absolute scandal, time is fast running out for this little girl.
 
"These dogs have immense capability. Their tracking skills are among the finest in the world.
 
"The dogs were put on standby to go to the Algarve within days of Madeleine’s disappearance.
 
"You would expect the Portuguese to make use of the best resources available to them, but they repeatedly ignore the offers of assistance."
 
The dogs include a spaniel whose sense of smell is so keen she can sniff traces of blood on a weapon even after it has been scrubbed clean.
 
But the source warned: "They work most effectively within a 28-day time frame. After that the scent becomes much weaker."
 
Other British dog-handling teams did join the initial search for Maddie, and local cops later reported that dogs found a scent, but the trail was lost after 250 yards.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

So are you telling me that two British Police Dogs were allowed to go to America and train in a way that is forbidden in UK?

I don't think so somehow.

Alfred R Jones

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #272 on: May 04, 2015, 03:43:55 PM »
2006 definitely.

30 December 2005

PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. "She can detect minute quantities of blood that cannot be seen with the human eye," he said. "She is used at scenes where someone has tried to clean it up. If blood has seeped into the tiles behind a bath where a body has been, she can find it."

Mr Ellis and Mr Grimes came up with a special training regime to focus on Keela's remarkable skills. It has proved so successful that the FBI has inquired about it. "The FBI is very interested in how we work because they don't have this sort of facility in-house and they are looking at setting up their own unit," Mr Ellis said.
 
Paul Ruffell, of K9 Solutions, a security firm specialising in dog units, said he was amazed at Keela's abilities. "I've been working in this business for 25 years and I've never heard anything like it," he said.

ANIMAL MAGIC
 
£200,000 DOG
 
Keela crime scene investigation dog, South Yorkshire Police
 
Pay none. Charges £530 a day plus expenses for services. Earned almost £200,000 last year.

Maddie hunt: Send in dogs The Sun
 
By Ian Hepburn and John Askill
Published: 23 May 2007
 
Stubborn Portuguese police chiefs are refusing to let the world's best sniffer dogs join the hunt for Madeleine McCann.
 
Senior British cops last night urged officers leading the inquiry to accept help from UK dog teams before it is too late.
 
Two dogs attached to Britain's National Policing Improvement Agency have developed such powerful tracking skills they can follow a scent for miles, even one up to 28 days old.
 
By sniffing an item of Maddie's clothing, they could trace a trail that might finally unlock the mystery of the four-year-old's disappearance.
 
Police in the Algarve appear no nearer to finding Maddie 20 days after she was snatched from her bed in the family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz. But the sniffer dogs are still being snubbed.
 
A senior UK police source said: "It is an absolute scandal, time is fast running out for this little girl.
 
"These dogs have immense capability. Their tracking skills are among the finest in the world.
 
"The dogs were put on standby to go to the Algarve within days of Madeleine’s disappearance.
 
"You would expect the Portuguese to make use of the best resources available to them, but they repeatedly ignore the offers of assistance."
 
The dogs include a spaniel whose sense of smell is so keen she can sniff traces of blood on a weapon even after it has been scrubbed clean.
 
But the source warned: "They work most effectively within a 28-day time frame. After that the scent becomes much weaker."
 
Other British dog-handling teams did join the initial search for Maddie, and local cops later reported that dogs found a scent, but the trail was lost after 250 yards.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html
So, you are citing the Sun to back up your claims?  Then we can both agree that the Sun is an acceptable source of information, and that Amaral is indeed a monster.  Glad that's sorted then!

Offline DCI

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #273 on: May 04, 2015, 03:45:06 PM »
So are you telling me that two British Police Dogs were allowed to go to America and train in a way that is forbidden in UK?

I don't think so somehow.

Before release of his main report, John Lowe of the Forensic Science Service wrote a long email to Stuart Prior of Leicestershire Police about a particular result from the boot of the McCanns’ hire car, where some markers from a mixed DNA sample were the same as markers from the control DNA profile of Madeleine. 6 words from that email are key: “too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion”. In his main report, Lowe summarises that result without mention of Madeleine by name, repeating: “too complex for meaningful interpretation”. No contradiction at all.
 
I shan’t name and shame, but I have actually debated with people that think what was too complex for John Lowe, a forensic expert, to interpret could nevertheless be interpreted by a judge, or even a jury. The forum myth is one some people are loath to let go of.
 Certain claims of Martin Grime in his profile raise an eyebrow.
 
As a full-time Police Constable with South Yorkshire Police (SYP) (the most junior rank of serving officer in the British Police Force), he claims to have been also an advisor to the FBI and the US Department of justice. He claims to have been instrumental in training programmes in the US, and to have introduced swine cadavers/cadaver scent into training in the States. In some States of America, as everywhere in Britain, use of human cadaver or human cadaver scents is not acceptable, and in those States, as in Britain, swine cadavers are used to train dogs. It is surprising that Martin Grime should have taught the Americans anything new about that.
 
Grime claims that in a 6 year period in Britain, Eddie was deployed over 200 times. This disclosure under Freedom of Information (FOI) indicates just 37 deployments in the 5 year period 2003-2007.
Either Eddie must have had one very busy year or Grime has got his sums wrong.
 
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/disclosurelog/20090062
 
Some States in America use human cadavers to train cadaver dogs on what are known as ‘body farms’. Grime claims that Eddie has been trained on such a farm in the States. An FOI answer to a question I have submitted cited parts of a Personal Development review for the Year 2005-6 when it was stated that Eddie (then aged 5 or 6, and close to retirement) had been to the States for that training. The cited justification was, not that it would improve Eddie’s performance, but that it would “generate some income potential”.
 
Until his last day of service, the daily cost of hiring Eddie was just £10. And no documention confirming this apparent trip was ever received by SYP.
 
Still, Grime describes both Eddie and Keela as the only “assets” (as he describes them) of their type in the world. Clearly Eddie’s apparent training on a body farm in America wouldn’t make him that, because many dogs in America are trained the same, so what would?
 Whatever it is, perhaps that is why there are no references to the “Enhanced” Victim Recovery dog status outside Eddie and Grime?
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Offline slartibartfast

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #274 on: May 04, 2015, 04:35:42 PM »
So are you telling me that two British Police Dogs were allowed to go to America and train in a way that is forbidden in UK?

I don't think so somehow.

What you think is immaterial as whether the dogs went to the U.S.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #275 on: May 04, 2015, 04:44:49 PM »
What you think is immaterial as whether the dogs went to the U.S.

As is what you think.  But we don't have any hard evidence, do we.

Offline jassi

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #276 on: May 04, 2015, 04:47:40 PM »
As is what you think.  But we don't have any hard evidence, do we.


Do we need it?
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

OxfordBloo

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #277 on: May 04, 2015, 05:04:31 PM »

Do we need it?

Only if people continue to insist that they did go to the US.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #278 on: May 04, 2015, 05:43:50 PM »
Specialized K-9 to Aid in Ga. Search todaysthv.com
 
Monika Rued
Updated: 9/14/2007 11:19:53 AM
 
A dog trained to detect tiny bits of blood evidence has been brought to Georgia from the UK to help search for a missing woman.
 
The FBI, the GBI and Walker County, Georgia, Sheriff's investigators have some new and potentially powerful help in solving the seemingly unsolvable disappearance of Theresa Parker, the Walker County 911 dispatcher. A world-renowned police dog and his handler from England just arrived in Georgia.
 
The FBI considers them -- Martin Grime and his 7-year-old, English Springer Spaniel, Eddie -- two of the best in the law enforcement specialty of canine forensics, able to find evidence everyone else missed.

Sniffer dog used in search for Madeleine McCann found missing Orkney man's body Daily Record

Feb 17 2010

A SNIFFER dog used in the search for missing Madeleine McCann found a man buried in sand dunes in Orkney, a court heard yesterday.

FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow he and his springer spaniels Eddie, Keela and Morse were called in by police in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on the island of Sanday last June.

Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies and was used in the McCann case and the Soham murders inquiry, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24.

Mr Grime said: "His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig."

The body of "Black Bob" Rose was later found at the spot.



Comprehensive Characterization of Commercially Available Canine Training Aids, Christopher A. Tipple, Patricia T. Caldwell, Brian M. Kile, Douglas J. Beussman, Blake Rushing, Natalie J. Mitchell, Christian J. Whitchurch, Martin Grime, Rex Stockham, Brian A. Eckenrode; Forensic Science International, 2014, September, Vol 242, pp 242–254. E-published 7/5/2014. DOI: 10.1016/j.forsciint.2014.06.033

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/scientific-analysis/counterterrorism-forensic-science-research/research-citations
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

OxfordBloo

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #279 on: May 04, 2015, 05:49:29 PM »
Specialized K-9 to Aid in Ga. Search todaysthv.com
 
Monika Rued
Updated: 9/14/2007 11:19:53 AM
 
A dog trained to detect tiny bits of blood evidence has been brought to Georgia from the UK to help search for a missing woman.
 
The FBI, the GBI and Walker County, Georgia, Sheriff's investigators have some new and potentially powerful help in solving the seemingly unsolvable disappearance of Theresa Parker, the Walker County 911 dispatcher. A world-renowned police dog and his handler from England just arrived in Georgia.
 
The FBI considers them -- Martin Grime and his 7-year-old, English Springer Spaniel, Eddie -- two of the best in the law enforcement specialty of canine forensics, able to find evidence everyone else missed.

Sniffer dog used in search for Madeleine McCann found missing Orkney man's body Daily Record

Feb 17 2010

A SNIFFER dog used in the search for missing Madeleine McCann found a man buried in sand dunes in Orkney, a court heard yesterday.

FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow he and his springer spaniels Eddie, Keela and Morse were called in by police in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on the island of Sanday last June.

Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies and was used in the McCann case and the Soham murders inquiry, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24.

Mr Grime said: "His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig."

The body of "Black Bob" Rose was later found at the spot.



Comprehensive Characterization of Commercially Available Canine Training Aids, Christopher A. Tipple, Patricia T. Caldwell, Brian M. Kile, Douglas J. Beussman, Blake Rushing, Natalie J. Mitchell, Christian J. Whitchurch, Martin Grime, Rex Stockham, Brian A. Eckenrode; Forensic Science International, 2014, September, Vol 242, pp 242–254. E-published 7/5/2014. DOI: 10.1016/j.forsciint.2014.06.033

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/scientific-analysis/counterterrorism-forensic-science-research/research-citations



So he took Eddie to the USA  in mid September 2007?

I wonder whether Grime was the sole source of the information about the skills of the dog.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #280 on: May 04, 2015, 05:52:11 PM »


So he took Eddie to the USA  in mid September 2007?

I wonder whether Grime was the sole source of the information about the skills of the dog.

The Development of FBI Forensic Canine Program
Starting April 2005

https://uk.linkedin.com/pub/martin-grime/8/4a7/972
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

OxfordBloo

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #281 on: May 04, 2015, 05:58:53 PM »
An expert here says that EVRDs cannot distinguish between dead pig and dead humans because their odour is so similar.

"When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the
 animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet
 cadaver not processed food for human consumption). The result from
 scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of
 human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train'
 the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be
 possible in the future."

So the assertion that Eddie does not react to pig flesh is false.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #282 on: May 04, 2015, 06:16:09 PM »
An expert here says that EVRDs cannot distinguish between dead pig and dead humans because their odour is so similar.

"When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the
 animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet
 cadaver not processed food for human consumption). The result from
 scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of
 human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train'
 the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be
 possible in the future."

So the assertion that Eddie does not react to pig flesh is false.

Has anyone asserted this on this thread?
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Carew

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #283 on: May 04, 2015, 06:20:18 PM »
On a permanent state of alert, is Eddie.......what with blood of all ages and stages of decomposition and pig flesh..........non-stop head- in- the -air and woofing.

Or is it only if the handler suspects, consciously or unconsciously that one or both may be present and directs him to alert?


Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #284 on: May 04, 2015, 06:20:59 PM »
Has anyone asserted this on this thread?

I lost track, but we seem to be playing a game of previously rehearsed set pieces.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey