The parents of a missing child don't matter.

[Eleanor]

I think that applies to both sides. Those with doubts struggle to understand the actions of the McCanns as this is not how they feel they would act themselves.

But they don't actually know how they would have acted, do they.  The thought of losing one of my children in similar circumstances paralyses me, my fault or not.
I simply don't believe that The McCanns harmed their daughter or disposed of her body.  So they are left in an agony of never ending grief.

[Benice]

IMO - Empathy is putting yourself in another persons shoes and looking at things from their point of view.  This leads to questions like:-

(1)  Would I allow/encourage my elderly mother to be part of a criminal cover up of the death of someone else's child - which could end up with her being arrested and imprisoned in a foreign country?

I know I couldn't do that  - and I don't believe Fiona Payne or any loving daughter could either.

Or:

(2)  'Could I and my friends casually go and publically enjoy a nice meal and exchange banter - all knowing that my daughter had just died!!   and that in an hour's time the place would be crawling with police and we were all going to have to tell a pack of lies to them?'

No I couldn't - and I don't know anyone who could.     Apart from anything else -  'eating' would be a sheer impossibility in those circumstances -  the fear of what was about to happen would see to that.

IMO anyone who thinks the McCanns and their friends could do any of the above has little or no ability to empathise.

[Alfred R Jones]

I think that applies to both sides. Those with doubts struggle to understand the actions of the McCanns as this is not how they feel they would act themselves.

So you find it difficult to have any sympathy for people who behave differently to you and who, through their own stupidity or thoughtlessness, end up suffering a terrible tragedy?  Maybe that's the difference between the two "sides"...?  One "side"  thinks "there but for the grace of God" and admits that they too could, through their own thoughtlessness and stupidity, find themselves in a similar situation, whilst the other side refuses to countenance the idea that they could ever do anything stupid or foolish and that people who do such things deserve to suffer the consequences of their actions.

[Benice]

So you find it difficult to have any sympathy for people who behave differently to you and who, through their own stupidity or thoughtlessness, end up suffering a terrible tragedy?  Maybe that's the difference between the two "sides"...?  One "side"  thinks "there but for the grace of God" and admits that they too could, through their own thoughtlessness and stupidity, find themselves in a similar situation, whilst the other side refuses to countenance the idea that they could ever do anything stupid or foolish and that people who do such things deserve to suffer the consequences of their actions.

I don't think there is any 'Maybe' about it Alfred - I think you've hit the nail on the head.

Some take the.... 'You've made your bed now lie in it' ....stance

and others  (as you say) take the ..'There for the Grace of God go I'.. stance'

For various reasons we don't all have the same levels of empathy or compassion  - and that is not a criticism it's simply a fact of life.
IMO.

 

[pathfinder73]

A very early example of something which raises questions is Kate telling us 'it felt so safe' 'I never had to think twice about leaving the chidren' then at around 11pm Gerald McCann is on the phone saying 'there's paedophile gangs in Portugal'. Who told him that? If he knew about these gangs why didn't he take more care?  Did Kate know these gangs were around?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GRAHAM-MCKENZIE.htm

Reads like a fantasy film script. How do you control people? By fear. I can't wait for the next twist 

Kate McCann: "He deserves to be miserable and feel fear."

You won't control Amaral or the dogs.

[Eleanor]

IMO - Empathy is putting yourself in another persons shoes and looking at things from their point of view.  This leads to questions like:-

(1)  Would I allow/encourage my elderly mother to be part of a criminal cover up of the death of someone else's child - which could end up with her being arrested and imprisoned in a foreign country?

I know I couldn't do that  - and I don't believe Fiona Payne or any loving daughter could either.

Or:

(2)  'Could I and my friends casually go and publically enjoy a nice meal and exchange banter - all knowing that my daughter had just died!!   and that in an hour's time the place would be crawling with police and we were all going to have to tell a pack of lies to them?'

No I couldn't - and I don't know anyone who could.     Apart from anything else -  'eating' would be a sheer impossibility in those circumstances -  the fear of what was about to happen would see to that.

IMO anyone who thinks the McCanns and their friends could do any of the above has little or no ability to empathise.

This is it, in my opinion.  "Inability to Empathise."  Not that this is anyone's actual fault.  You can either do it, or you can't.  I do it only too well.

[G-Unit]

I learned a lot about about empathy once I had children. I changed completely and understood that my wants and needs had to come second. I missed out on fun because I didn't have a baby-sitter. I missed out on new clothes because the children needed something. My number one concern was ensuring my children's needs were satisfied and they were as happy as I could make them. My reward was doing things with them, watching their personalities develop and enjoying seeing them learn new things.

So my first problem is this; had my child asked why I didn't come when she and her brother were crying I would have been upset. I would have knelt down and hugged her and said sorry straight away. Knowing I'd gone out and left them alone my guilt would have made me stop that immediately. I would have either taken the children to the night creche, hired a baby-sitter or stayed in for the rest of the holiday. That's one reason why empathy with the McCann parents is difficult for me, we're just so different.

[pathfinder73]

A great argument. I still can't believe they never went with others to watch the children sailing for the first time that morning and why they didn't go to the beach later with the others is even more strange. What was really going on that day?

[Alfred R Jones]

I learned a lot about about empathy once I had children. I changed completely and understood that my wants and needs had to come second. I missed out on fun because I didn't have a baby-sitter. I missed out on new clothes because the children needed something. My number one concern was ensuring my children's needs were satisfied and they were as happy as I could make them. My reward was doing things with them, watching their personalities develop and enjoying seeing them learn new things.

So my first problem is this; had my child asked why I didn't come when she and her brother were crying I would have been upset. I would have knelt down and hugged her and said sorry straight away. Knowing I'd gone out and left them alone my guilt would have made me stop that immediately. I would have either taken the children to the night creche, hired a baby-sitter or stayed in for the rest of the holiday. That's one reason why empathy with the McCann parents is difficult for me, we're just so different.

As Kate McCann revealed this detail to the judging world (she could have chosen not to) does this not indicate an honest rather than a deceitful nature?

[pathfinder73]

As Kate McCann revealed this detail to the judging world (she could have chosen not to) does this not indicate an honest rather than a deceitful nature?

It is not believable is it?

Relative to the allegation that Madeleine made regarding Sean's crying, I do not have any idea what possessed Madeleine to make such an affirmation and also would state that Madeleine had a very fertile imagination.  (JK)

Are you sure it's Madeleine with the very fertile imagination?

I had a conversation with Kate regarding care of the children in particular, leaving the children to cry until exhaustion. (JK)

How bloody interesting.

[G-Unit]

A great argument. I still can't believe they never went with others to watch the children sailing for the first time that morning and why they didn't go to the beach later with the others is even more strange. What was really going on that day?

The rest of the group seemed to strike a better balance during the day. Some 'me' time and some 'family' time. The fathers seemed quite keen to spend time with their children, which they didn't get the time to at home, particularly Russell O'Brien. He was a bit disappointed that his child liked the creche so much. Only one couple used every single opportunity to use the creche and showed no desire to spend any 'quality family time' with their children. I was present at most of the 'firsts' in my children's lives, and enjoyed their pleasure immensely.

[slartibartfast]

So you find it difficult to have any sympathy for people who behave differently to you and who, through their own stupidity or thoughtlessness, end up suffering a terrible tragedy?  Maybe that's the difference between the two "sides"...?  One "side"  thinks "there but for the grace of God" and admits that they too could, through their own thoughtlessness and stupidity, find themselves in a similar situation, whilst the other side refuses to countenance the idea that they could ever do anything stupid or foolish and that people who do such things deserve to suffer the consequences of their actions.

We are not talking sympathy but empathy. Putting yourself in someone else's place and trying to understand what motivates them.

[Alfred R Jones]

It is not believable is it?

Relative to the allegation that Madeleine made regarding Sean's crying, I do not have any idea what possessed Madeleine to make such an affirmation and also would state that Madeleine had a very fertile imagination.  (JK)

Are you sure it's Madeleine with the very fertile imagination?

I had a conversation with Kate regarding care of the children in particular, leaving the children to cry until exhaustion. (JK)

How bloody interesting.

Hang on, so you don't believe Madeleine DID wake up and cry nor that she said what she did to Kate?

[G-Unit]

As Kate McCann revealed this detail to the judging world (she could have chosen not to) does this not indicate an honest rather than a deceitful nature?

Some people have suggested it was an attempt to move the crying incident from Tuesday to Wednesday evening in order to suggest that the 'abductor' tried a 'dummy run' the night before, but that is just speculation. Honest? Yes indeed. Why? I can only assume that their approach to parenting was such that she could see nothing strange about her reaction to the crying incident.

[Alfred R Jones]

We are not talking sympathy but empathy. Putting yourself in someone else's place and trying to understand what motivates them.

So you can have sympathy for people who make bad decisions and suffer a tragedy but no empathy, is that what you're saying?