Author Topic: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?  (Read 43136 times)

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Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #120 on: July 05, 2015, 12:22:13 PM »
If Madeleine had been taken from her bed,   then the person who took her would have shed skin cells which hold DNA.
There was no Portuguese DNA database in 2007.  The law creating it came into effect on 12 Feb 2008.  It sat empty for years.  For entries on criminals, it is restricted to convictions re serious crimes.  It currently has around 5,000 such entries.

The lady in my current avatar (Jul 2015) is Prof. Helena Machado, who (thankfully) has written many scientific articles on the development of the Portuguese DNA database, and a couple relating specifically to the McCann and Cipriano cases.

My blog has more, but the bottom line is simple.  Do not expect an SY approach to DNA existed in Portugal in 2007, as it did not.

This sheds light on why Andy took so many DNA experts to Coimbra/INML last year.
What's up, old man?

Offline Carana

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #121 on: July 05, 2015, 12:57:07 PM »
There was no Portuguese DNA database in 2007.  The law creating it came into effect on 12 Feb 2008.  It sat empty for years.  For entries on criminals, it is restricted to convictions re serious crimes.  It currently has around 5,000 such entries.

The lady in my current avatar (Jul 2015) is Prof. Helena Machado, who (thankfully) has written many scientific articles on the development of the Portuguese DNA database, and a couple relating specifically to the McCann and Cipriano cases.

My blog has more, but the bottom line is simple.  Do not expect an SY approach to DNA existed in Portugal in 2007, as it did not.

This sheds light on why Andy took so many DNA experts to Coimbra/INML last year.

Ah... I thought that was you in the avatar. LOL Yes, Helena Machado (and Felipe Santos) have written some very interesting research.


I know that there was no DNA database... and even now there aren't  that many samples.

Some cold cases, however, have been solved by the careful preservation of samples from crime scenes... even though the technology wasn't available to do much with them at the time. Conversely, some potentially useful forensic material in other cases wasn't correctly preserved (because protocols evolved and  certain procedures weren't consideered to be important at the time).

A complicating factor, as you probably know, if that the first Portuguese CSI manual was only introduced in 2009.


20 May 2009
PJ Laboratory receives 24 thousand requests per year



by Joana de Belém

The PJ’s Scientific Police Laboratory (SPL) receives one hundred and fifty requests for tests per day, which sum up to two thousand every month. Last year, the SPL received 24 thousand requests. The waiting time “is high”, admits the director of the Scientific Police National Laboratory, where approximately two hundred people work. An “activity that faces the difficulty of the lack of resources and the response within useful time”, says Carlos Farinha.

Nevertheless, the same senior official, who spoke yesterday during the 4th National Congress for Criminology, in Oporto, noted that the Portuguese lab was rated, in an international study whose results were known last week, the sixth best among a total of 71 bodies.

Carlos Farinha also mentioned that the increase in television series like CSI creates some equivocations. “We’re not as good looking as they are, but the main difference is the time notion”, not only as far as test results are concerned but also concerning the data that investigators have access to. “Nobody accesses that much information at the simple touch of a button. Apart from that, if any policeman could access information in that manner, we’d have a big brother, a society without balance between justice and freedom”, the investigator stressed.

Today, at the Polícia Judiciária’s School, in Lisbon, a crime scene practises manual is launched, establishing rules on how to enter, how to mark the investigators’ passage, how to photograph and/or draw a crime scene, among other procedures. “The potentialities in the collection of a certain type of residues are incommensurably different today from what they were years ago”, said Carlos Farinha, according to whom “nowadays the level of collection of elements on location is scarily superior”. Hence, he adds, the need to “reorganise and think about the manner to proceed on a crime scene”.

When questioned about a possible connection between the launch of this manual and the allegedly careless manner how policemen entered, two years ago, into the room of Madeleine McCann – the little English girl that disappeared in the Algarve, in 2007 -, Farrinha asserts that “it’s a reducing perspective”. “I’m not associating this to anything at all”, he concluded.

Presently, the laboratory develops efforts to improve the photofits of missing persons, namely their adjustment to physiognomic changes that take place.

Still during the congress, inspector Jorge Duarte explained the change in the profile of the computer criminal. The first protagonists, in the 90s [the so-called hackers] “weren’t seen as criminals but rather as geniuses, were between 14 and 24 years old, students, generally middle class”. The “social profile has changed, the age has stretched to 34, it includes medium level professionals and re-offenders”, the member of the PJ’s High Technology Criminal Investigation unit explained, adding that, due to the easiness in escaping justice, the number of re-offenders tends to increase over time.

Maria Carneiro, a service chief at the Forensics Medicine Institute, mentioned the few cases of homicidal women. “Women are not as criminal in violent terms as men and the cases where they kill for pleasure are extremely rare”. When that happens, “those are cases of serious psychopathology and generally not imputable”, she concludes.


source: Diário de Notícias, 20.05.2009

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #122 on: July 05, 2015, 05:17:30 PM »
Ah... I thought that was you in the avatar. LOL Yes, Helena Machado (and Felipe Santos) have written some very interesting research.


I know that there was no DNA database... and even now there aren't  that many samples.

Some cold cases, however, have been solved by the careful preservation of samples from crime scenes... even though the technology wasn't available to do much with them at the time. Conversely, some potentially useful forensic material in other cases wasn't correctly preserved (because protocols evolved and  certain procedures weren't consideered to be important at the time).

A complicating factor, as you probably know, if that the first Portuguese CSI manual was only introduced in 2009.


20 May 2009
PJ Laboratory receives 24 thousand requests per year



by Joana de Belém

The PJ’s Scientific Police Laboratory (SPL) receives one hundred and fifty requests for tests per day, which sum up to two thousand every month. Last year, the SPL received 24 thousand requests. The waiting time “is high”, admits the director of the Scientific Police National Laboratory, where approximately two hundred people work. An “activity that faces the difficulty of the lack of resources and the response within useful time”, says Carlos Farinha.

Nevertheless, the same senior official, who spoke yesterday during the 4th National Congress for Criminology, in Oporto, noted that the Portuguese lab was rated, in an international study whose results were known last week, the sixth best among a total of 71 bodies.

Carlos Farinha also mentioned that the increase in television series like CSI creates some equivocations. “We’re not as good looking as they are, but the main difference is the time notion”, not only as far as test results are concerned but also concerning the data that investigators have access to. “Nobody accesses that much information at the simple touch of a button. Apart from that, if any policeman could access information in that manner, we’d have a big brother, a society without balance between justice and freedom”, the investigator stressed.

Today, at the Polícia Judiciária’s School, in Lisbon, a crime scene practises manual is launched, establishing rules on how to enter, how to mark the investigators’ passage, how to photograph and/or draw a crime scene, among other procedures. “The potentialities in the collection of a certain type of residues are incommensurably different today from what they were years ago”, said Carlos Farinha, according to whom “nowadays the level of collection of elements on location is scarily superior”. Hence, he adds, the need to “reorganise and think about the manner to proceed on a crime scene”.

When questioned about a possible connection between the launch of this manual and the allegedly careless manner how policemen entered, two years ago, into the room of Madeleine McCann – the little English girl that disappeared in the Algarve, in 2007 -, Farrinha asserts that “it’s a reducing perspective”. “I’m not associating this to anything at all”, he concluded.

Presently, the laboratory develops efforts to improve the photofits of missing persons, namely their adjustment to physiognomic changes that take place.

Still during the congress, inspector Jorge Duarte explained the change in the profile of the computer criminal. The first protagonists, in the 90s [the so-called hackers] “weren’t seen as criminals but rather as geniuses, were between 14 and 24 years old, students, generally middle class”. The “social profile has changed, the age has stretched to 34, it includes medium level professionals and re-offenders”, the member of the PJ’s High Technology Criminal Investigation unit explained, adding that, due to the easiness in escaping justice, the number of re-offenders tends to increase over time.

Maria Carneiro, a service chief at the Forensics Medicine Institute, mentioned the few cases of homicidal women. “Women are not as criminal in violent terms as men and the cases where they kill for pleasure are extremely rare”. When that happens, “those are cases of serious psychopathology and generally not imputable”, she concludes.


source: Diário de Notícias, 20.05.2009

Thanks for this.  I was (blissfully) ignorant of this until now.
 
I don't think the DNA database had a single entry at that time (May 2009).

So DNA capability, CSI manuals, good stuff.  But how many requests to INML.  My source is 23, yours is 24,000 per year.  Is one of these right?  My source goes ludicrously small.  Yours goes ludicrously large.

Can we work out the truth?
What's up, old man?

Offline Lace

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #123 on: July 06, 2015, 06:35:59 PM »
There was no Portuguese DNA database in 2007.  The law creating it came into effect on 12 Feb 2008.  It sat empty for years.  For entries on criminals, it is restricted to convictions re serious crimes.  It currently has around 5,000 such entries.

The lady in my current avatar (Jul 2015) is Prof. Helena Machado, who (thankfully) has written many scientific articles on the development of the Portuguese DNA database, and a couple relating specifically to the McCann and Cipriano cases.

My blog has more, but the bottom line is simple.  Do not expect an SY approach to DNA existed in Portugal in 2007, as it did not.

This sheds light on why Andy took so many DNA experts to Coimbra/INML last year.


Thank you for that    8((()*/

Offline pegasus

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #124 on: July 07, 2015, 11:47:08 AM »
The closest unused land to the apartment should have been by NPIA investigated IMO.


Offline Carana

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #125 on: July 21, 2015, 10:34:12 AM »
Thanks for this.  I was (blissfully) ignorant of this until now.
 
I don't think the DNA database had a single entry at that time (May 2009).

So DNA capability, CSI manuals, good stuff.  But how many requests to INML.  My source is 23, yours is 24,000 per year.  Is one of these right?  My source goes ludicrously small.  Yours goes ludicrously large.

Can we work out the truth?

Sorry, I missed your post. The PJ Scientific Lab doesn't appear to be the same entity as the INML. Or is it?
The 24k per day may refer to all types of forensic requests. I'm not even sure if the PJSL is equipped to do DNA tests...
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 10:49:42 AM by Carana »

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #126 on: July 21, 2015, 07:16:45 PM »
Sorry, I missed your post. The PJ Scientific Lab doesn't appear to be the same entity as the INML. Or is it?
The 24k per day may refer to all types of forensic requests. I'm not even sure if the PJSL is equipped to do DNA tests...
I don't know how many labs there are.

The INML did all the lab forensics in the case.  The INML is the 'keeper' of the Portuguese DNA database.  The INML did all the DNA tests in the PJ Files, excepting of course the FSS ones.

I believe there is a Chinese wall around DNA results which goes as follows.  In Portugal, the authorities are not allowed to cross-reference cases, until someone has been convicted of a crime and given a sentence of 3 years or more.

The Madeleine case has no conviction.  Therefore, if someone was still carrying out 'petty' crimes where the sentence is less than 3 years, they could take that person's DNA for the petty crime case, match it to DNA in the Madeleine case, but be prevented by law from using the match.

This is my understanding of what Helena Machado has written in English, so if I have misunderstood, it is my misunderstanding.

This also sheds light on why SY might have been pushing for DNA tests within the Madeleine case.
What's up, old man?

Offline Carana

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #127 on: July 21, 2015, 09:24:57 PM »
I don't know how many labs there are.

The INML did all the lab forensics in the case.  The INML is the 'keeper' of the Portuguese DNA database.  The INML did all the DNA tests in the PJ Files, excepting of course the FSS ones.

I believe there is a Chinese wall around DNA results which goes as follows.  In Portugal, the authorities are not allowed to cross-reference cases, until someone has been convicted of a crime and given a sentence of 3 years or more.

The Madeleine case has no conviction.  Therefore, if someone was still carrying out 'petty' crimes where the sentence is less than 3 years, they could take that person's DNA for the petty crime case, match it to DNA in the Madeleine case, but be prevented by law from using the match.

This is my understanding of what Helena Machado has written in English, so if I have misunderstood, it is my misunderstanding.

This also sheds light on why SY might have been pushing for DNA tests within the Madeleine case.

That's more or less my understanding as well, except that I doubt that DNA sweps would be done for your average minor crime (e.g., theft, home burglary) as it costs too much. The suspected offence would have to be serious enough for the GNR or the PSP to call in the PJ, wouldn't it?

And there's the inherent issue that the GNR / PSP don't have the same powers as the PJ, so by the time they've assessed the potential seriousness of the case, passed it on to the PJ, and the PJ forensic team turn up, half of the potential forensics could be gone.


ETA: There's also another of her papers here:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3050.msg256816#msg256816
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 09:32:12 PM by Carana »

Offline pegasus

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #128 on: July 21, 2015, 11:55:36 PM »
Peeps will think this is a stupid question but did anyone that night search the top cupboards in the pool-side bedroom?

Offline Brietta

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #129 on: July 22, 2015, 12:03:05 AM »
Peeps will think this is a stupid question but did anyone that night search the top cupboards in the pool-side bedroom?

If the attendant GNR officers did not they were being terribly remiss ... unfortunately there is no detailed record of exactly where was searched.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pegasus

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #130 on: July 22, 2015, 12:11:53 AM »
If the attendant GNR officers did not they were being terribly remiss ... unfortunately there is no detailed record of exactly where was searched.
Again this also sounds like a stupid question.
Did anyone search the top cupboards in the south bedroom during the hour before GNR arrived at apartment?
I suppose a possible answer might be: "No because it would obviously have been a waste of valuable time"?

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #131 on: July 22, 2015, 12:21:42 AM »
Again this also sounds like a stupid question.
Did anyone search the top cupboards in the south bedroom during the hour before GNR arrived at apartment?
I suppose a possible answer might be: "No because it would obviously have been a waste of valuable time"?
I haven't seen anything other than relatively vague statements about who searched what when.

I have not seen anything that states the top of the cupboards was searched, whether before the GNR arrived or after.
What's up, old man?

Offline pegasus

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #132 on: July 22, 2015, 12:33:19 AM »
I haven't seen anything other than relatively vague statements about who searched what when.

I have not seen anything that states the top of the cupboards was searched, whether before the GNR arrived or after.
I am interested in the psychology of search, in how the searcher's subconscious applies assumptions to decide which places to search and which not.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 12:36:11 AM by pegasus »

Offline mercury

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #133 on: July 22, 2015, 12:40:00 AM »
If the attendant GNR officers did not they were being terribly remiss ... unfortunately there is no detailed record of exactly where was searched.

Not as bad as Kate McCann refusing to tell em if she did or not! You know, not answering those awfully "silly" questions, one of which was where did you search!

Offline Brietta

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #134 on: July 22, 2015, 12:41:39 AM »
I am interested in the psychology of search, in how the searcher's subconscious applies assumptions to decide which places to search and which not.

The mother looked for a child who may have been hiding.
The GNR looked for a child who may have wandered off.
The searchers were also looking for a child who had wandered.  All were working to areas they thought accessible to the child and with a thought to how much ground she may have been able to cover outside.

I suspect you think there is a possibility that Madeleine's remains may have been concealed in the top cupboards.  I think not for a variety of reasons which I shan't pursue due to the lateness of the hour.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....