Author Topic: The child gate located at the top of the steps.  (Read 49599 times)

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Offline pathfinder73

Re: The child gate located at the top of the steps.
« Reply #105 on: July 11, 2015, 01:07:20 AM »
Murat wasn't a qualified translator, to name but one.
You say that not every single word or nuance has to be exact - so why on earth was a reconstitution required & why do the sceptics hyper-analyse every single word from the Tapas 9 statements in their attempts to prove itwastheMcCannswotdunit?

Oh dear. The last witnesses to see the missing child are always investigated. Have you got a problem with that?
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline mercury

Re: The child gate located at the top of the steps.
« Reply #106 on: July 11, 2015, 01:10:51 AM »
Murat wasn't a qualified translator, to name but one.
You say that not every single word or nuance has to be exact - so why on earth was a reconstitution required & why do the sceptics hyper-analyse every single word from the Tapas 9 statements in their attempts to prove itwastheMcCannswotdunit?

Murat was probably better than a qualified translator, being naturally bilingual is better than "studied"

You are right that overanalysing every word is not helpful. Its all to do with context.

The reconstruction was something the police wanted, to iron out discrepancies and to shed more light on the night, and obviously the statements did not all match up or were incomplete, even if you look at Kate Mccanns 48 questions, there are so many things the police still had questions about, so late in the day, basic things, and not anyone's job to decline it if they had nothing to hide IMO this would be called obstructing justice


« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 01:13:54 AM by mercury »

Offline misty

Re: The child gate located at the top of the steps.
« Reply #107 on: July 11, 2015, 01:30:52 AM »
Oh dear. The last witnesses to see the missing child are always investigated. Have you got a problem with that?

Not at all. So why was it necessary to request the presence of many of the Tapas 9 in a reconstitution when they hadn't seen Madeleine since lunchtime?

Offline mercury

Re: The child gate located at the top of the steps.
« Reply #108 on: July 11, 2015, 01:52:49 AM »
Not at all. So why was it necessary to request the presence of many of the Tapas 9 in a reconstitution when they hadn't seen Madeleine since lunchtime?

Because they were all together on the night of the disappearance before and after so all their testimonies/actions from the begnning to the end of the evening are important

Goodnight Misty, keep questioning and asking, its a healthy thing to do, whatever side of the fence you sit on

 8((()*/

« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 01:56:44 AM by mercury »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The child gate located at the top of the steps.
« Reply #109 on: July 11, 2015, 02:09:46 AM »
Not at all. So why was it necessary to request the presence of many of the Tapas 9 in a reconstitution when they hadn't seen Madeleine since lunchtime?

They were all there on the night she disappeared. What they saw, what they heard, what they know.........
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline misty

Re: The child gate located at the top of the steps.
« Reply #110 on: July 11, 2015, 02:30:22 AM »
They were all there on the night she disappeared. What they saw, what they heard, what they know.........

.....as were the people who saw Madeleine at high tea, the waiters, the other diners in the Tapas Bar.....
Just exactly what would a reconstitution show other than who walked from A to B & at roughly what time? It certainly would not have shown how an intruder got into 5a or Smithman legged it to the beach clutching a cadaver, then back again.
Would the PJ have re-installed the safety gate for the reconstitution?

Offline pegasus

Re: The child gate located at the top of the steps.
« Reply #111 on: July 11, 2015, 02:52:29 AM »
Thanks Misty, previous 65 posts seem to not mention the thing at upper end of steps which is thread topic if I recall correctly.  IMO PJ probably wouldn't have thought in sufficient tiny detail to reinstall it. But it would be necessary for a realistic reenactment. If the lever was always down (locked) it might rule out the wandering (accident or abduction) theories.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 03:25:17 AM by pegasus »

Offline pegasus

Re: The child gate located at the top of the steps.
« Reply #112 on: July 11, 2015, 03:07:10 AM »
I would not rely on such a specific memory many years after the event.

Different if it had been asked at the time and refreshed later that is different ... and who knows it may well have been if statements were written down as is police practice even when not in formal interview ... not everything is documented in the files.
IMO if SY were to ask each person who checked apartment that evening:
"When you arrived did you press button and move blue lever from horizontal to vertical to unlock stairgate?"
"When you left did you move blue lever from vertical to horizontal to lock stairgate?"
they may recall even now in 2015.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 03:09:59 AM by pegasus »

Offline Brietta

Re: The child gate located at the top of the steps.
« Reply #113 on: July 11, 2015, 08:51:48 AM »
IMO if SY were to ask each person who checked apartment that evening:
"When you arrived did you press button and move blue lever from horizontal to vertical to unlock stairgate?"
"When you left did you move blue lever from vertical to horizontal to lock stairgate?"
they may recall even now in 2015.

Having read the rogatory statements I don't think the question would have been asked like that, Pegasus.  Probably more along the lines of ~
When you climbed the stair, what did you see?
Describe the gate in detail.
Take it one step at a time and describe what you did next ... (not perfect I know but I think it would be necessary to get answers without prompting ... and if someone mentioned specifics such as a description of the opening mechanism ... I am sure my brain would "remember" opening it)

Proper assessment of statements can't be concluded ... unless one knows the questions asked to elicit the response.
For example ...


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm  ... this statement being one where gentle questioning of the witness made her realise that she had got her dates mixed up.

There are no examples of Portuguese interviews taking the same tack to ensure accuracy ... with the exception of the "48 questions" we have only the statements to go on with no idea what questions were being asked.

We can assume from the number of statements which contain reference to not having seen Robert Murat that it was in answer to the question was he there and was he seen.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The child gate located at the top of the steps.
« Reply #114 on: July 11, 2015, 09:21:26 AM »
It is a fact that non verbatim twice translated statements cannot be relied upon to be accurate.

Offline Benice

Re: The child gate located at the top of the steps.
« Reply #115 on: July 11, 2015, 09:31:27 AM »
Oh those evil translators.....the ones who just plucked out the word "key" and the phrase "because it was locked" from their imaginations ...ever heard of the phrase"scraping the barrell"? Or was it a case of Gerry being wrong in his memory and correcting himself in his second statement, or of not being wrong but changing the statement?

ETA:

What you are suggesting is what was written down was NOT what the translator read back in English before beng signed ..so basically youre calling the translator a fraud, more barrell scraping.

These notes from the translator  - would strongly suggest that translating the statements was not exactly a walk in the park.

QUOTE
905 to 917 Witness statement of Matthew David Oldfield 2007.05.10
918-Consent for mouth swab for Matthew David Oldfield
TRANSLATION BY ALBYM
 
04-Processo 04 Page 905 to 917
 
[M Oldfield's  Statement 10th May Again, there were several omissions from, and errors in, the original Portuguese. I corrected those that I found. Also, much of the Portuguese statement is written with a convoluted 'future + past' verb construct that attributes an 'uncertainty' to the words, whereas I have translated much of it in a non-literal manner to make it read more definitively. Hence, the reader must understand that neither the Portuguese nor my translation necessarily constitute the exact words spoken by Oldfield.

If you read MO's Rogatory Letter testimony you will get a sense of the difficulty the Portuguese interpreter faced when listening to this man.]
End quote
 
Translators note - -

I must make it clear that this officer, while doing his clear professional duty, was, of necessity, couching much of his statement in a very diplomatic manner. Some of his phrasing I have managed to keep word-for-word, whereas other parts I have had to cut directly to the chase because it is simply too tortuous for me to convert word-for-word into English.
As usual my inline explanatory comments are in square brackets.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBERT-MURAT.htm
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline pegasus

Re: The child gate located at the top of the steps.
« Reply #116 on: July 11, 2015, 11:04:57 PM »
It is a fact that non verbatim twice translated statements cannot be relied upon to be accurate.
"2130: ... the child gate on the stairs up to the patio is possibly open".
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_890.jpg
That is a scan of the original English typed page handed to PJ. There is no possibility of translation error.

Offline pegasus

Re: The child gate located at the top of the steps.
« Reply #117 on: July 11, 2015, 11:19:08 PM »
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_890.jpg
"possibly open" - There is certainly no translation or transcription error in this
 
- it is the original 3-page english timeline document composed by the group of 9 adults themselves, not by the PJ.
"that was a timeline that was made purely by the nine of us"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm (about halfwaydown)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 11:34:29 PM by pegasus »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The child gate located at the top of the steps.
« Reply #118 on: July 11, 2015, 11:45:17 PM »
Madeleine was moved out before 9:30 and Eddie told you it was on that side.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: The child gate located at the top of the steps.
« Reply #119 on: July 11, 2015, 11:54:05 PM »
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_890.jpg
"possibly open" - There is certainly no translation or transcription error in this
 
- it is the original 3-page english timeline document composed by the group of 9 adults themselves, not by the PJ.
"that was a timeline that was made purely by the nine of us"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm (about halfwaydown)

It also states quite clearly that the patio door was closed but unlocked.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....