Is prosecuting historic sex cases a waste of public funds?

[mercury]

There is no argument from me regarding the first part of your post: particularly when victims of crime have reported offences and been ignored without adequate investigation being carried out.

There is a very fine line indeed between justice being served and justice being abused.  You can say what you like about a dead person with impunity ... for the simple reason s\he isn't around to argue the point.

Edward Heath's diary secretary has spoken in his defence; it will be interesting if his diaries match up with times and dates remembered by his accuser.

There are always going to be chancers, (in these cases despicable IMO)  it is up to police to deal with it. You cannot just dismiss all claims and tell people just to go home just because some may be false IMO.

If evidence and proof beyond reasonable doubt is there, IMO it doesn't matter if a person is dead or not.

Diary Secretary? Fat lot of use that is.

PS Not sure why this subject is on the Madeleine board.

[sadie]

Oh for God's sake don't mention paedophile gangs and masons if Sadie's about.   

Too late

I am here ! 

[Angelo222]

Too late

I am here ! 

Greetings        

[Anna]

Edward Heath claims:
Brothel keeper denies accusing former PM


3 hours ago
From the section UK





A former brothel keeper has denied accusing ex-Prime Minister Edward Heath of involvement in child sexual abuse.
Myra Forde's ex-lawyer says she did not state that the late PM was a client, nor did she threaten to expose him if a prosecution against her was continued.
Forde says she has "no knowledge of any misconduct on his part" and recent media coverage had caused her distress.
The UK's historical child sex abuse inquiry is to examine claims about Sir Edward if "the facts justify it".
The Metropolitan, Wiltshire, Hampshire, Jersey and Kent forces are conducting separate inquiries into the late MP.
The BBC understands Wiltshire Police halted an inquiry into Forde in the 1990s.
Previous convictions
On Monday, the Independent Police Complaints Commission said it would look at whether a case was dropped by Wiltshire Police when a person involved made claims against Sir Edward.
Forde was later convicted of controlling prostitutes after a successful prosecution by the same force.
She was jailed for six years after a trial that included allegations that she had supplied children as young as 13 to her clients.




Myra Forde was convicted in July 2009 of running a brothel in a residential street in Salisbury
Fourteen years later Forde was prosecuted and jailed again for inciting prostitution.
Richard Griffiths, Forde's solicitor in 1992, has now spoken on her behalf to the Salisbury Journal.
He told the newspaper: "My former client wishes me to make it very clear that at no stage did she state that Ted Heath was a client and at no stage did she threaten to expose him as a client of hers if the prosecution was continued.
"For the avoidance of any doubt, Myra Forde wishes me to make it clear that she had no involvement with Ted Heath of any kind and has no knowledge of any misconduct on his part."
He also said that, at the time of that case, the prosecution "took what, at the time, seemed a sensible decision that they could not prove their case and offered no evidence".

Heath investigations

Operation Midland: The BBC understands Sir Edward is being looked at as part of the operation examining claims that boys were abused by a group of powerful men at locations across southern England and in London in the 1970s and 1980s. It has focused on the Dolphin Square estate in Pimlico, south-west London.
Operation Whistle: The States of Jersey Police has confirmed Sir Edward forms part of its investigation into historical allegations of abuse. It says some of the allegations relate to abuse "within institutions or by people of public prominence".
Operation Hydrant: A nationally co-ordinated exercise to collate all allegations of historical abuse involving high profile-figures. The operation has been notified of Sir Edward being named in connection with an allegation of sexual assault in the 1960s.
Historical child abuse: Key investigations

A spokesman for the UK's ongoing independent inquiry into child sexual abuse, chaired by Justice Lowell Goddard, said that although the allegations about Sir Edward fell within its terms of reference, it had not received any direct allegations.
Sir Edward, who was Conservative prime minister from 1970 to 1974, died aged 89 in 2005 at his home in Salisbury.
Wiltshire Police has declined to comment on the claims that it did not follow up accusations against him during his lifetime, but has appealed for information regarding allegations against Sir Edward.
Meanwhile, Labour MP Tom Watson said he had referred two allegations of child sexual abuse by Sir Edward to the police since 2012, with police confirming that at least one of those allegations was being investigated.
Friends of Sir Edward have dismissed the claims, saying there is not a shred of evidence to link him to abuse.
The Sir Edward Heath Charitable Foundation, which operates the museum at Arundells, his home in Salisbury, said it "wholeheartedly" believed the investigation would clear Sir Edward's name.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33794974

[jassi]

I hope that photo of her wasn't taken while within police custody   

[stephen25000]

You have to be joking jassi.

Heaths interest in boys has been on the internet for years.


And there is something else about him and what happened when he was sailing that I am not going to mention, but if true it is diabolical.

I believe unfortunately Sadie I know what you mean.

There was an unfortunate nickname for his boat by his security officers.

[Anna]

The boat? News is very busy today. You will have to follow the news link for videos, which are interesting.


Edward Heath: Five Police Forces Investigating
A fifth police force receives allegations against Sir Edward Heath - amid claims the ex-PM took boys from Jersey out on his boat.


14:31, UK, Wednesday 05 August 2015



Five police forces have confirmed they have received allegations of child sex abuse involving the former prime minister Sir Edward Heath.
Police in Jersey, Wiltshire, Hampshire, Kent and London are all investigating allegations involving the former politician.
Late last night, the Hampshire force was the latest to confirm it is looking into allegations made against the former PM.
Earlier, police in Jersey said Sir Edward was being investigated as part of their historical child sex abuse inquiry.

Sir Edward was ousted as Tory leader by Margaret Thatcher in 1975
The disclosure followed claims that he would take children from care homes for a ride in his yacht.
Wiltshire Police, meanwhile, disclosed it has received a number of calls to a helpline it set up appealing for potential victims and witnesses.
Play video "'Police Discovered Lots of Names'"
Video: 'Police Discovered Lots of Names'
Kent Police said it had received a report of a sexual assault against Sir Edward in East Kent in the 1960s.
And the Metropolitan Police is looking into accusations by a man, now aged 65. He claims he was raped at the age of 12 by Sir Edward, in Mayfair, London.
A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: "In April 2015 an allegation of rape was made to the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS).
"An officer from Operation Fairbank interviewed the complainant that same month and obtained a full account. Support services were offered.
"However, after a full assessment of the allegation there were no lines of inquiry that could proportionately be pursued by the MPS."
It is also claimed the politician was seen by a Met Police detective going into a north London property where boys were abused in the '70s.
The first allegation against Sir Edward emerged on Monday.
Wiltshire Police disclosed the force was being investigated for failing to handle an apparent allegation made against the politician in the 1990s.
A woman at the centre of the claims has been revealed to be a Filipino prostitute called Myra Ling-Ling Forde - now 67.
According to a retired detective she had been arrested on inciting prostitution charges in the mid 90s but the court case against her was dropped after she threatened to expose Sir Edward as a paedophile.
1/15

Gallery: A Life In Politics: Edward Heath
Lord Armstrong of Ilminster, Sir Edward's former principal private secretary, told Sky News the allegations were "absolute nonsense".
But since then further details of claims have emerged including those on Jersey.
In a statement, Jersey Police said: "Sir Edward Heath does feature as part of Operation Whistle, currently investigating historical allegations of abuse in Jersey."
The force says the allegations of abuse involve 13 "people of public prominence".
Many of the claims centre on the Haut de la Garenne children's home, which closed in 1986.
The home was said to have been "frequented" by Jimmy Savile, who has been accused of abusing youngsters there.
US Newsweek reporter Leah Goodman has claimed she was told of allegations against Sir Edward on Jersey in 2011.
But she says she was then thrown out of the UK for investigating them.
She told Sky News: "(Police officers investigating claims at the children's home) had heard the rumours and I know a few of the senior members of the police believed that (Heath) was at it.
"The yachting culture had long been known for bringing boys and other children out on boats into international waters ... murky legalities ... it was a place where it was understood people couldn't escape.
Play video "'There Have Been Rumours'"


Video: 'There Have Been Rumours'
"I know Edward Heath was involved in the yachting culture on the island."
Sir Edward, PM for four years in the 1970s, is the highest-profile figure to be named in historical abuse allegations against prominent figures.
An independent inquiry has been set up into claims public bodies failed to act or attempted to cover up claims against senior politicians.
The inquiry has been told by David Cameron there are no limits to their investigations and officers should "go as high as they like".
The Sir Edward Heath Charitable Foundation said: "We welcome the investigation by Wiltshire Police, which we wholeheartedly believe will clear Sir Edward's name and we will co-operate fully with the police in their inquiries."
Sir Edward, who led the Conservative government between 1970 and 1974, never married and kept his private life under wraps.
He died at his home in Salisbury aged 89 in July 2005.
:: The NSPCC helpline for the Edward Heath inquiry is 0808 800 5000.

http://news.sky.com/story/1530217/edward-heath-five-police-forces-investigating

[Brietta]

Won't really matter. You know how bad people's memory can be when it comes down to details during traumatic events

No-one is relying on a diary secretary's memory whether traumatised or not.

I think a diary with a record of official engagements contained therein ... all of which are matters of record and can be corroborated ... might carry some weight in an investigation.

If there is any real concern for the truth to be established all available evidence must be open to investigation.

[Alice Purjorick]

Edward Heath claims:
Brothel keeper denies accusing former PM


3 hours ago
From the section UK





A former brothel keeper has denied accusing ex-Prime Minister Edward Heath of involvement in child sexual abuse.
Myra Forde's ex-lawyer says she did not state that the late PM was a client, nor did she threaten to expose him if a prosecution against her was continued.
Forde says she has "no knowledge of any misconduct on his part" and recent media coverage had caused her distress.
The UK's historical child sex abuse inquiry is to examine claims about Sir Edward if "the facts justify it".
The Metropolitan, Wiltshire, Hampshire, Jersey and Kent forces are conducting separate inquiries into the late MP.
The BBC understands Wiltshire Police halted an inquiry into Forde in the 1990s.
Previous convictions
On Monday, the Independent Police Complaints Commission said it would look at whether a case was dropped by Wiltshire Police when a person involved made claims against Sir Edward.
Forde was later convicted of controlling prostitutes after a successful prosecution by the same force.
She was jailed for six years after a trial that included allegations that she had supplied children as young as 13 to her clients.




Myra Forde was convicted in July 2009 of running a brothel in a residential street in Salisbury
Fourteen years later Forde was prosecuted and jailed again for inciting prostitution.
Richard Griffiths, Forde's solicitor in 1992, has now spoken on her behalf to the Salisbury Journal.
He told the newspaper: "My former client wishes me to make it very clear that at no stage did she state that Ted Heath was a client and at no stage did she threaten to expose him as a client of hers if the prosecution was continued.
"For the avoidance of any doubt, Myra Forde wishes me to make it clear that she had no involvement with Ted Heath of any kind and has no knowledge of any misconduct on his part."
He also said that, at the time of that case, the prosecution "took what, at the time, seemed a sensible decision that they could not prove their case and offered no evidence".

Heath investigations

Operation Midland: The BBC understands Sir Edward is being looked at as part of the operation examining claims that boys were abused by a group of powerful men at locations across southern England and in London in the 1970s and 1980s. It has focused on the Dolphin Square estate in Pimlico, south-west London.
Operation Whistle: The States of Jersey Police has confirmed Sir Edward forms part of its investigation into historical allegations of abuse. It says some of the allegations relate to abuse "within institutions or by people of public prominence".
Operation Hydrant: A nationally co-ordinated exercise to collate all allegations of historical abuse involving high profile-figures. The operation has been notified of Sir Edward being named in connection with an allegation of sexual assault in the 1960s.
Historical child abuse: Key investigations

A spokesman for the UK's ongoing independent inquiry into child sexual abuse, chaired by Justice Lowell Goddard, said that although the allegations about Sir Edward fell within its terms of reference, it had not received any direct allegations.
Sir Edward, who was Conservative prime minister from 1970 to 1974, died aged 89 in 2005 at his home in Salisbury.
Wiltshire Police has declined to comment on the claims that it did not follow up accusations against him during his lifetime, but has appealed for information regarding allegations against Sir Edward.
Meanwhile, Labour MP Tom Watson said he had referred two allegations of child sexual abuse by Sir Edward to the police since 2012, with police confirming that at least one of those allegations was being investigated.
Friends of Sir Edward have dismissed the claims, saying there is not a shred of evidence to link him to abuse.
The Sir Edward Heath Charitable Foundation, which operates the museum at Arundells, his home in Salisbury, said it "wholeheartedly" believed the investigation would clear Sir Edward's name.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33794974

A Time Lord no less!

[Anna]

A Time Lord no less!

Yes, Alice, It does indeed read, a bit like that. 

[jassi]

No-one is relying on a diary secretary's memory whether traumatised or not.

I think a diary with a record of official engagements contained therein ... all of which are matters of record and can be corroborated ... might carry some weight in an investigation.

If there is any real concern for the truth to be established all available evidence must be open to investigation.

I was thinking of the witnesses memory, not that of the secretary.

[Eleanor]

Mr Heath's Diary is important in this case.  Was he where his accusers say he was?

[carlymichelle]

There are always going to be chancers, (in these cases despicable IMO)  it is up to police to deal with it. You cannot just dismiss all claims and tell people just to go home just because some may be false IMO.

If evidence and proof beyond reasonable doubt is there, IMO it doesn't matter if a person is dead or not.

Diary Secretary? Fat lot of use that is.

PS Not sure why this subject is on the Madeleine board.

i dont know  either isnt it off topic to boot??

[Miss Taken Identity]

Mr Heath's Diary is important in this case.  Was he where his accusers say he was?

I'm not so sure Elle.... His secretary will put in his diary official engagements only. Not whilst he is sailing or visiting 'friends'. I do not know if the allegations are true or not,  but I do believe they should be investigated.
4 Reasons

1. child abuse ruins lives
2. no one should be above the law
3. The police service are paid for by the public to serve  the public- they do not get to become judge and jury to *let people off*
4. Powerfull, influencial, political people, can be blackmailed into doing things that are detrimental to our nations moral standing and our security and safety.  MI5/6 will know for sure.  He made bad descisions as PM, we should think about what pressure was on him to do so.

[Eleanor]

I'm not so sure Elle.... His secretary will put in his diary official engagements only. Not whilst he is sailing or visiting 'friends'. I do not know if the allegations are true or not,  but I do believe they should be investigated.
4 Reasons

1. child abuse ruins lives
2. no one should be above the law
3. The police service are paid for by the public to serve  the public- they do not get to become judge and jury to *let people off*
4. Powerfull, influencial, political people, can be blackmailed into doing things that are detrimental to our nations moral standing and our security and safety.  MI5/6 will know for sure.  He made bad descisions as PM, we should think about what pressure was on him to do so.

I don't have a problem with investigating Child Sex Abuse.  But I do have a problem with investigating Dead People.  No real conclusion can be arrived at, while costing probably millions.
And then what?  Dig him up?  Put him in prison?

Let's see some investigating of these people while they are still alive.  They can't all be dead, can they?  If there were so many of them.

I suspect a bit of mass hysteria.  Find the dead guilty and then we can all go home.  That's that problem sorted.