Sadie's theory.

[sadie]

Joana Cipriano was murdered by her uncle and the alleged attempted abduction of Carolina Santos was a questionable event since it was broad daylight and she never left the street.  So in reality there are no confirmed abductions of very young children in this region of Portugal.

Yep, she never left the street BUT was walking hand in hand with a man who told her that he was taking her to play with some other children.  She was a pretty 3 year old.  When Carolina was called back, he loosed her hand and vanished around the corner 

Oh, and I forgot to add that according to reports, he had walked her about 300 metres when her parents spotted her being walked off   

So that is not an attempted abduction then John?   Would that have been OK had a man walked one of your boys off?

[slartibartfast]

Yep, she never left the street BUT was walking hand in hand with a man who told her that he was taking her to play with some other children.  She was a pretty 3 year old.  When Carolina was called back, he loosed her hand and vanished around the corner 

Oh, and I forgot to add that according to reports, he had walked her about 300 metres when her parents spotted her being walked off   

So that is not an attempted abduction then John?   Would that have been OK had a man walked one of your boys off?

Lucky to be able to see her at 300 metres...

[Robittybob1]

Lucky to be able to see her at 300 metres...

He had walked 300 meters, doesn't mean they saw them at 300 meters, if they called out obviously they were closer at the time of the sighting.  IMO.

[slartibartfast]

He had walked 300 meters, doesn't mean they saw them at 300 meters, if they called out obviously they were closer at the time of the sighting.  IMO.

Blue-eyed blonde Carolina Santos, three, was snatched by a Moroccan-looking man four months before Maddie vanished. Carolina’s parents Abel and Lina were working in their cafe at Fonte Louzeiros when Carolina vanished last Christmas Day. They spotted her with the stranger 300 yards away. When they caught up he fled. Lina said: “If we hadn’t come out at that moment I don’t know what would have happened

[Vertigo Swirl]

Blue-eyed blonde Carolina Santos, three, was snatched by a Moroccan-looking man four months before Maddie vanished. Carolina’s parents Abel and Lina were working in their cafe at Fonte Louzeiros when Carolina vanished last Christmas Day. They spotted her with the stranger 300 yards away. When they caught up he fled. Lina said: “If we hadn’t come out at that moment I don’t know what would have happened

Are these your words or a news report - cite please.

[sadie]

Lucky to be able to see her at 300 metres...

It is a long way.  I agree, but they had young eyes.

A standard footie pitch in the UK can be up to 130 metres long x 100metres, so without actually calculating, my guess is about about 160 metres diagonally.  Some stands are very high and deep, so my guess is that some spectators in the back corner are getting on for 300 metres away from the play in the diagonal corner.  Dont think that footie fans would pay for the seats if they couldn't see reasonably satisfactorily

[Robittybob1]

Are these your words or a news report - cite please.

From a Google search I'd say it comes from https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2015/10/26/madeleine-carolina-santos/

[Gertrude]

Looking back in the thread, Sadie seems to support her theory of abduction by talking about the other missing children cases in Portugal. As if they are linked and there is a pattern.

   They all seem to have obvious differences though. All of them missing persons or attempted abductions from outside and all but 1 were older children. Some of them are older boys, some girls.  In the case of Renne Hasee it's possible he went into the sea.

  In the case of  Rui Pedro someone was charged in relation but not for the actual abduction. This man was a friend of the family, so was not a stranger. Rui Pedro was identified as being a victim in child abuse images, so that gives a motive - and is the only one that seems to have been confirmed as 'trafficked' out of Portugal. The only one. IMO the only thing that seems to link these cases is that they are missing children in Portugal.

 I think the main difference here is that they all went missing in the day time in a public place, so what's the possible connection to the McCann case when it's a totally different M.O. ?  At night, inside a house, a young child who can't be convinced to go anywhere?

[slartibartfast]

Blue-eyed blonde Carolina Santos, three, was snatched by a Moroccan-looking man four months before Maddie vanished. Carolina’s parents Abel and Lina were working in their cafe at Fonte Louzeiros when Carolina vanished last Christmas Day. They spotted her with the stranger 300 yards away. When they caught up he fled. Lina said: “If we hadn’t come out at that moment I don’t know what would have happened

Dropped pin
near R. de Fonte Louseiros, Alcantarilha, Portugal
https://goo.gl/maps/JAt6nbeXoEu

[Vertigo Swirl]

Dropped pin
near R. de Fonte Louseiros, Alcantarilha, Portugal
https://goo.gl/maps/JAt6nbeXoEu

300 yards was reported, is that accurate or tabloid fancy?

[slartibartfast]

300 yards was reported, is that accurate or tabloid fancy?

Somebodies fantasy.

[G-Unit]

From a Google search I'd say it comes from https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2015/10/26/madeleine-carolina-santos/

Sil seems to have researched the story very thoroughly, well worth a read.

[Vertigo Swirl]

Somebodies fantasy.

Whose?  You still haven't given a cite.

[John]

Well I, for one do not believe in the validity of the court rulings on Leonor and Joao Cipriano.  It is based upon the word and thoughts of two men who are both criminals.  both of whom have been proven to be liars and both have made money on th backs of two missing children, by writing books based upon their, imo, crazy thoughts.

Then there is the small thing of having beaten Leonor half to blindness, with horrific bruising all over her face and body ... but according to Amaral, who is a perjurer, the torture was done after Leonor had confessed.
OK so what other reason was there for it?


Just a few of the crazy thoughts, with no proof attached to them by Amaral:
1.  Joana came home to find her Mum and Uncle "at it", so she had to be murdered.  No proof or pointers even.  UNBELIEVABLE !
2.   Joanas body was cut up and stuffed in a freezer, which was too small for it
3.   The body pieces were then taken to the piggery and fed to the pigs
ALL UNBELIEVABLE
4.   The accusation by Amaral that Leonor must have done it because she was wearing
black on a TV show about the case.  We were shown photos of her upper body to prove it.  Such nonsense.   
Further to that when we finally saw the video of the show, she was wearing bright red trousers with the black top.   IMO, that is fraudulent at worst and negligent at best ... and such a silly accusation anyway


and on the Madeleine case:
1.   Madeleines body was kept in a freezer (Another Freezer ... Gee Whizz!)
2.   The parents were swingers as were all the Tapas group .... nothing to indicate it, just a bland rumour, blackening the parents and groups names (to make them more vulnerable?  by influencing the publics perception of them?)


There are lots of other things, but soz, i was up too late last night and my mind is still half asleep.

John, The Joana Cipriano case is so weak that it is amazing that it found its way through Court.  It should have been thrown out before it even reached The Courts, but perhaps Leonor is safest in Prison.  With a brave woman like Leonor (name means lioness?) she might well be finished off if when she finally comes out, IMO, especially if she speaks her mind and reveals things about her treatment and the irregularities of the case and causes a furore.

Life (of the poorer citizens) seems cheap in Portugal.

I disagree Sadie, the evidence is clear imo.  Both the uncle and the mother independently admitted to accidentally killing the child so unless you believe them both to be monster-raving fruitcakes, they are equally guilty of that dreadful killing. Have another look at the João Cipriano confession video which says it all.  As for Leonor Cipriano, she got off lightly in my opinion given the monstrous deed she tried to cover up.

[John]

Yep, she never left the street BUT was walking hand in hand with a man who told her that he was taking her to play with some other children.  She was a pretty 3 year old.  When Carolina was called back, he loosed her hand and vanished around the corner 

Oh, and I forgot to add that according to reports, he had walked her about 300 metres when her parents spotted her being walked off   

So that is not an attempted abduction then John?   Would that have been OK had a man walked one of your boys off?

He was a known troublemaker who was drunk at the time and had provoked a disturbance in a coffee shop. In an attempt to get back at those he was in dispute with he thought he was being smart by walking off with the owners daughter but he didn't get far. A prize idiot by all accounts and not an international child smuggler.  I understand the GNR had words with him.