Author Topic: Has Martin Smith Changed his Opinion ?  (Read 292090 times)

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Alfred R Jones

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Re: Has Martin Smith Changed his Opinion ?
« Reply #285 on: February 29, 2016, 08:20:44 AM »
It would have to be hidden somewhere else away from the crime scene before being moved a second time and seen by the Smiths.
so they all rush back. to the apartment when the alarm is raised, except for one (the most important one) who instead rushes off "somewhere else"?

Offline Benice

Re: Has Martin Smith Changed his Opinion ?
« Reply #286 on: February 29, 2016, 08:42:54 AM »
so they all rush back. to the apartment when the alarm is raised, except for one (the most important one) who instead rushes off "somewhere else"?

But only after changing his clothes.   I wonder when he did that.    Or when he changed back into the clothes he was wearing at the restaurant after he'd done the deed.
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline G-Unit

Re: Has Martin Smith Changed his Opinion ?
« Reply #287 on: February 29, 2016, 09:14:12 AM »
But only after changing his clothes.   I wonder when he did that.    Or when he changed back into the clothes he was wearing at the restaurant after he'd done the deed.

What was he wearing at the restaurant then?

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Offline pathfinder73

Re: Has Martin Smith Changed his Opinion ?
« Reply #288 on: February 29, 2016, 09:18:24 AM »
so they all rush back. to the apartment when the alarm is raised, except for one (the most important one) who instead rushes off "somewhere else"?

Russ told you what then happened.

"Gerry, just said ‘Look, let’s just’, erm, ‘let’s just split up and find’, erm, you know, ‘see if we can find her, see if she’s just wandered out’."
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Has Martin Smith Changed his Opinion ?
« Reply #289 on: February 29, 2016, 09:25:24 AM »

Wandering Off Topic.  Can we get back, please.

Offline Benice

Re: Has Martin Smith Changed his Opinion ?
« Reply #290 on: February 29, 2016, 09:47:16 AM »
What was he wearing at the restaurant then?

From memory -  Blue jeans, trainers, and a polar top.     No dark jacket, gold trousers or ordinary shoes.

Anyway - we're off topic so I'll leave it at that.
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline G-Unit

Re: Has Martin Smith Changed his Opinion ?
« Reply #291 on: February 29, 2016, 11:18:02 AM »
From memory -  Blue jeans, trainers, and a polar top.     No dark jacket, gold trousers or ordinary shoes.

Anyway - we're off topic so I'll leave it at that.

Memory? I didn't realise you were there. If he was wearing completely different clothes the question arises as to why he didn't publicise the e-fits which Martin Smith was 60-80% sure were Gerry McCann. All he had to do was demonstrate that he wore the same clothes all evening on 3rd May. His PI's should have been able to find witnesses to that effect.
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Offline Eleanor

Re: Has Martin Smith Changed his Opinion ?
« Reply #292 on: February 29, 2016, 11:28:43 AM »
Memory? I didn't realise you were there. If he was wearing completely different clothes the question arises as to why he didn't publicise the e-fits which Martin Smith was 60-80% sure were Gerry McCann. All he had to do was demonstrate that he wore the same clothes all evening on 3rd May. His PI's should have been able to find witnesses to that effect.

No.  Martin Smith did not think that the E-fits were 60 to 80% Gerry.

Offline pegasus

Re: Has Martin Smith Changed his Opinion ?
« Reply #293 on: March 02, 2016, 04:04:09 AM »
Common sense dear. If they couldn't see his face clearly in the dark then they wouldn't notice her tiny eyelids.  The child's eyes would be facing down on his shoulder and in the opposite direction when he was heading towards them.
@ Pathfinder. The witness states he saw the eyes were closed.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 04:06:15 AM by pegasus »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Has Martin Smith Changed his Opinion ?
« Reply #294 on: March 02, 2016, 08:14:46 AM »
Peter was attending to his pregnant wife and not paying close attention so for him to notice closed tiny eyes and not his face is fascinating and unbelievable.

"He does not remember if he wore glasses, or had a beard or a moustache. He did not notice any other relevant details as the lighting was bad."
"He did not notice her eyes as she was asleep, having closed eyelids." PS

Aoife's statement is more believable.

"She did not see the child's face because she was lying against the individual's left shoulder in a vertical position against the individual. She appeared to be sleeping. Her arms were suspended along her body and were not around the individual's neck."
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 08:38:15 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline blonk

Re: Has Martin Smith Changed his Opinion ?
« Reply #295 on: March 02, 2016, 04:35:20 PM »
Aoife's statement is more believable.

I am not at all sure that it is, actually.

She first saw the bloke when he was about two metres in front of her.

If so, they would have crossed, at normal walking pace, about 1.0 to 1.5 seconds later.

It was dark. The lighting was described by the Smiths as 'weak'.

I question whether in the space of a maximum of 1.5 seconds in the dark she could have recalled all that she claimed to have recalled.

Relevant parts of her statement bolded:

--------------------

— Around 22H00, they left Kelly's Bar. The group headed, on foot, for their apartment.
— Questioned, she responds that she knows the time that they left because her father and her brother decided to leave early that night. There were two reasons for this: one was the fact that her sister-in-law was not feeling very well and the other was because her brother, sister-in-law, nephew and son of her sister-in-law finished their holiday the next day and had to catch the morning flight returning to Ireland.
— Upon leaving the bar, they turned right and headed along the road for 40/50 metres. At this point, they again turned to the right and ascended a small street with stairs that give access to Rua 25 de Abril. As they were a large group (four adults and five children) they travelled apart from each other along the street with some more to the front and the others more behind. She does not remember how they were divided [who was where].
— The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres.
— The deponent crossed to the other side of Rua 25 de Abril and began walking up Rua da Escola Primária in the direction of the Estrela da Luz apartment complex.
— She did not see if the referenced individual with the child descended Rua das Escadinhas or if he continued along Rua 25 de Abril.
— It was the first time she saw that man. She does not remember seeing him at any time in any location.
— She has seen photographs of Madeleine McCann and thinks that it could have been her. Asked, she said she was 60% certain.
— The description below made about the man and the female child that the witness saw was made at around 22H00, when the lighting was weak.
— Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.
Personal Description:
— (1) the individual was male, Caucasian, light-skinned, between 20/30 years of age, of normal physical build, around 1,70/1,75 metres in height. At the time she saw his face but now cannot remember it. She thinks that he had a clean-shaven face. She does not remember seeing tattoos, scars or earrings. She did not notice his ears. His hair was thick-ish, light brown in colour, short at the back (normal) and a bit longer on the top.
— His trousers were smooth "rights" along the legs, beige in colour, cotton fabric, thicker than linen, possibly with buttons, and without any other decoration.
— She did not see what he was wearing above his trousers as the child covered him almost completely at the top.
— She did not see what shoes he was wearing.
— The individual's gait was normal, between a fast walk and a run. He did not look tired, moving in a manner usual when one carries a child.
— (2) the child was female because she had straight long hair to the neck. The colour was fair/light brown.
— She is certain that the child was about four years old because her niece (who was in the group) is of the same age and they were the same size.
She did not see the child's face because she was lying against the individual's left shoulder in a vertical position against the individual. She appeared to be sleeping. Her arms were suspended along her body and were not around the individual's neck. She did not look at the child's hands and cannot state the colour of her skin. She believes she was white.
— There was nothing covering the child, a comforter/blanket or any other piece of clothing but she only saw her back.
— She was wearing light trousers, white or light pink, that may have been pyjamas. She does not remember if they were patterned as it was dark. The material was lightweight/thin and could have been cotton.
— She also had a light top, with long sleeves. She did not see it well because the individual had his arms around the child. She is not sure if the child's top was the same colour as her trousers, saying only that it was very light. The fabric was the same as the trousers.

To have deduced the fabrics of both the man's trousers and the girl's pyjamas from seeing the man and child for 1.0 to 1.5 seconds is an amazing feat of observation, if true.

As for Aoife Smith saying of the man, on 26th May in Portimao, "she saw his face but now cannot remember it", that is exactly what one would expect after encountering a strange bloke in the dark for about one to one-and-a-half seconds.

Quite why anyone at all should believe that any of the Smith family could conjure up an e-fit one whole year later (well, two e-fits, actually), utterly defeats me   

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Has Martin Smith Changed his Opinion ?
« Reply #296 on: March 02, 2016, 04:50:33 PM »
I am not at all sure that it is, actually.

She first saw the bloke when he was about two metres in front of her.

If so, they would have crossed, at normal walking pace, about 1.0 to 1.5 seconds later.

It was dark. The lighting was described by the Smiths as 'weak'.

I question whether in the space of a maximum of 1.5 seconds in the dark she could have recalled all that she claimed to have recalled.

Relevant parts of her statement bolded:

--------------------

— Around 22H00, they left Kelly's Bar. The group headed, on foot, for their apartment.
— Questioned, she responds that she knows the time that they left because her father and her brother decided to leave early that night. There were two reasons for this: one was the fact that her sister-in-law was not feeling very well and the other was because her brother, sister-in-law, nephew and son of her sister-in-law finished their holiday the next day and had to catch the morning flight returning to Ireland.
— Upon leaving the bar, they turned right and headed along the road for 40/50 metres. At this point, they again turned to the right and ascended a small street with stairs that give access to Rua 25 de Abril. As they were a large group (four adults and five children) they travelled apart from each other along the street with some more to the front and the others more behind. She does not remember how they were divided [who was where].
— The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres.
— The deponent crossed to the other side of Rua 25 de Abril and began walking up Rua da Escola Primária in the direction of the Estrela da Luz apartment complex.
— She did not see if the referenced individual with the child descended Rua das Escadinhas or if he continued along Rua 25 de Abril.
— It was the first time she saw that man. She does not remember seeing him at any time in any location.
— She has seen photographs of Madeleine McCann and thinks that it could have been her. Asked, she said she was 60% certain.
— The description below made about the man and the female child that the witness saw was made at around 22H00, when the lighting was weak.
— Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.
Personal Description:
— (1) the individual was male, Caucasian, light-skinned, between 20/30 years of age, of normal physical build, around 1,70/1,75 metres in height. At the time she saw his face but now cannot remember it. She thinks that he had a clean-shaven face. She does not remember seeing tattoos, scars or earrings. She did not notice his ears. His hair was thick-ish, light brown in colour, short at the back (normal) and a bit longer on the top.
— His trousers were smooth "rights" along the legs, beige in colour, cotton fabric, thicker than linen, possibly with buttons, and without any other decoration.
— She did not see what he was wearing above his trousers as the child covered him almost completely at the top.
— She did not see what shoes he was wearing.
— The individual's gait was normal, between a fast walk and a run. He did not look tired, moving in a manner usual when one carries a child.
— (2) the child was female because she had straight long hair to the neck. The colour was fair/light brown.
— She is certain that the child was about four years old because her niece (who was in the group) is of the same age and they were the same size.
She did not see the child's face because she was lying against the individual's left shoulder in a vertical position against the individual. She appeared to be sleeping. Her arms were suspended along her body and were not around the individual's neck. She did not look at the child's hands and cannot state the colour of her skin. She believes she was white.
— There was nothing covering the child, a comforter/blanket or any other piece of clothing but she only saw her back.
— She was wearing light trousers, white or light pink, that may have been pyjamas. She does not remember if they were patterned as it was dark. The material was lightweight/thin and could have been cotton.
— She also had a light top, with long sleeves. She did not see it well because the individual had his arms around the child. She is not sure if the child's top was the same colour as her trousers, saying only that it was very light. The fabric was the same as the trousers.

To have deduced the fabrics of both the man's trousers and the girl's pyjamas from seeing the man and child for 1.0 to 1.5 seconds is an amazing feat of observation, if true.

As for Aoife Smith saying of the man, on 26th May in Portimao, "she saw his face but now cannot remember it", that is exactly what one would expect after encountering a strange bloke in the dark for about one to one-and-a-half seconds.

Quite why anyone at all should believe that any of the Smith family could conjure up an e-fit one whole year later (well, two e-fits, actually), utterly defeats me

Totally agree with blink on this occasion

Offline G-Unit

Re: Has Martin Smith Changed his Opinion ?
« Reply #297 on: March 02, 2016, 05:31:48 PM »
Totally agree with blink on this occasion

What was DCI Redwood playing at then I wonder?
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Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
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Offline pathfinder73

Re: Has Martin Smith Changed his Opinion ?
« Reply #298 on: March 02, 2016, 05:37:51 PM »
I am not at all sure that it is, actually.

She first saw the bloke when he was about two metres in front of her.

If so, they would have crossed, at normal walking pace, about 1.0 to 1.5 seconds later.

It was dark. The lighting was described by the Smiths as 'weak'.

I question whether in the space of a maximum of 1.5 seconds in the dark she could have recalled all that she claimed to have recalled.

Relevant parts of her statement bolded:

--------------------

— Around 22H00, they left Kelly's Bar. The group headed, on foot, for their apartment.
— Questioned, she responds that she knows the time that they left because her father and her brother decided to leave early that night. There were two reasons for this: one was the fact that her sister-in-law was not feeling very well and the other was because her brother, sister-in-law, nephew and son of her sister-in-law finished their holiday the next day and had to catch the morning flight returning to Ireland.
— Upon leaving the bar, they turned right and headed along the road for 40/50 metres. At this point, they again turned to the right and ascended a small street with stairs that give access to Rua 25 de Abril. As they were a large group (four adults and five children) they travelled apart from each other along the street with some more to the front and the others more behind. She does not remember how they were divided [who was where].
— The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres.
— The deponent crossed to the other side of Rua 25 de Abril and began walking up Rua da Escola Primária in the direction of the Estrela da Luz apartment complex.
— She did not see if the referenced individual with the child descended Rua das Escadinhas or if he continued along Rua 25 de Abril.
— It was the first time she saw that man. She does not remember seeing him at any time in any location.
— She has seen photographs of Madeleine McCann and thinks that it could have been her. Asked, she said she was 60% certain.
— The description below made about the man and the female child that the witness saw was made at around 22H00, when the lighting was weak.
— Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.
Personal Description:
— (1) the individual was male, Caucasian, light-skinned, between 20/30 years of age, of normal physical build, around 1,70/1,75 metres in height. At the time she saw his face but now cannot remember it. She thinks that he had a clean-shaven face. She does not remember seeing tattoos, scars or earrings. She did not notice his ears. His hair was thick-ish, light brown in colour, short at the back (normal) and a bit longer on the top.
— His trousers were smooth "rights" along the legs, beige in colour, cotton fabric, thicker than linen, possibly with buttons, and without any other decoration.
— She did not see what he was wearing above his trousers as the child covered him almost completely at the top.
— She did not see what shoes he was wearing.
— The individual's gait was normal, between a fast walk and a run. He did not look tired, moving in a manner usual when one carries a child.
— (2) the child was female because she had straight long hair to the neck. The colour was fair/light brown.
— She is certain that the child was about four years old because her niece (who was in the group) is of the same age and they were the same size.
She did not see the child's face because she was lying against the individual's left shoulder in a vertical position against the individual. She appeared to be sleeping. Her arms were suspended along her body and were not around the individual's neck. She did not look at the child's hands and cannot state the colour of her skin. She believes she was white.
— There was nothing covering the child, a comforter/blanket or any other piece of clothing but she only saw her back.
— She was wearing light trousers, white or light pink, that may have been pyjamas. She does not remember if they were patterned as it was dark. The material was lightweight/thin and could have been cotton.
— She also had a light top, with long sleeves. She did not see it well because the individual had his arms around the child. She is not sure if the child's top was the same colour as her trousers, saying only that it was very light. The fabric was the same as the trousers.

To have deduced the fabrics of both the man's trousers and the girl's pyjamas from seeing the man and child for 1.0 to 1.5 seconds is an amazing feat of observation, if true.

As for Aoife Smith saying of the man, on 26th May in Portimao, "she saw his face but now cannot remember it", that is exactly what one would expect after encountering a strange bloke in the dark for about one to one-and-a-half seconds.

Quite why anyone at all should believe that any of the Smith family could conjure up an e-fit one whole year later (well, two e-fits, actually), utterly defeats me

It was lighter where Aoife saw the man so she would have the best view of him. You can see the light above where she was in the photo below. There was no light when he passed Peter and Martin on the side street. Aoife was on the main lit road (probably weak lighting but enough to see more) which is the crucial point. Aoife saw his face but couldn't remember it.

Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: Has Martin Smith Changed his Opinion ?
« Reply #299 on: March 02, 2016, 05:43:15 PM »
Totally agree with blink on this occasion

I think it was an impossibility for the Smith family to have given more information than they already had.  If they were unable to input a physical description to enable an efit or recognise the person from photographs in the fortnight after remembering passing him in the street ... I doubt the passage of further time would have helped them to remember what they stated they didn't actually see.

How many ways are there to carry a sleeping child?
How would the comparison of a carrier walking at normal gait on a slight slope measure up to a carrier carefully watching his footing while coming down a flight of steps.
One seen while passing almost shoulder to shoulder ... the other viewed on a television screen.

I think it is obvious that Martin Smith's worry that the man he saw might have been Madeleine's father was wrong.
The rest of his family obviously thought he was wrong.
If it had got as far as being introduced into evidence in a court (even a Portuguese one) it would have been proved to be wrong.

I think it is indicative that the Rebelo investigation did not bother to attempt to progress that particular line of inquiry.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....