Author Topic: The Sun claims Madeleine McCann was kidnapped during a botched burglary.  (Read 270234 times)

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Offline mercury

You are familiar with "inside job"?  It happens when employees use information gained in the course of their employment to commit a crime ... and it happens a lot.

Normally bank robberies

when was the last "inside job abduction" ?

Offline Brietta

Normally bank robberies

when was the last "inside job abduction" ?

Exactly the same principle ... someone whose position working on the inside enables information to be passed to others enabling the crime ... whatever that crime may be ... to take place.

That stretches to providing information about the best time to grab someone's passport as in the Sun's 'botched' robbery theory.

Or planning a home invasion to grab something of more value.  Exactly the same difference.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Brietta

Well it has been like pulling teeth but let's flesh that out a bit also in the light of Brietta's following post to yours.

1.Mrs and Mrs Plutocrat wanted to purchase a bootleg child to a particular spec. for whatever reason. ..... &%+((£

2.Mr Abductor wanted to abduct a child to play with or sell on......... &%+((£

You can play tunes with a and b versions of the same themes but essentially that's it.
Without one of those there is no prime mover for a planned abduction.

So from 1 and 2  Lay on Macduff.
How does it go from there and why? We will not be so ungentlemanly as to ask why the so and so Mr and Mrs Plutocrat want a bootleg child when the likes of Tom Cruise and Elton John find adoption no problem.


Shining bears no responsibility for anything I may post, my opinions are my own. 

The 'botched' burglary may be a theory only because other lines of inquiry were not pursued at the time ... or were pursued asking the wrong questions.

One of those lines was the bookings trail leading from Britain to the Ocean Club.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline mercury

Exactly the same principle ... someone whose position working on the inside enables information to be passed to others enabling the crime ... whatever that crime may be ... to take place.

That stretches to providing information about the best time to grab someone's passport as in the Sun's 'botched' robbery theory.

Or planning a home invasion to grab something of more value.  Exactly the same difference.

The principle may match but as i asked any inside job abductions to cite?


Edited to remove reference to another member.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 12:59:14 AM by Brietta »


Offline pegasus

If a burglar opened the child's bedroom window and shutter from outside, and the child fled to the parents' bedroom, found they were out, and decided to hide in a wardrobe, which wardrobe would a child choose to hide in, left or right?

Offline Brietta

If a burglar opened the child's bedroom window and shutter from outside, and the child fled to the parents' bedroom, found they were out, and decided to hide in a wardrobe, which wardrobe would a child choose to hide in, left or right?

If such a thing did happen, Pegasus, I doubt very much if it would have been the shelved cupboard.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pegasus

If such a thing did happen, Pegasus, I doubt very much if it would have been the shelved cupboard.
Yes that is what I have just realised Brietta, a child would choose the wardrobe on the right, without shelves.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Well it has been like pulling teeth but let's flesh that out a bit also in the light of Brietta's following post to yours.

1.Mrs and Mrs Plutocrat wanted to purchase a bootleg child to a particular spec. for whatever reason. ..... &%+((£

2.Mr Abductor wanted to abduct a child to play with or sell on......... &%+((£

You can play tunes with a and b versions of the same themes but essentially that's it.
Without one of those there is no prime mover for a planned abduction.

So from 1 and 2  Lay on Macduff.
How does it go from there and why? We will not be so ungentlemanly as to ask why the so and so Mr and Mrs Plutocrat want a bootleg child when the likes of Tom Cruise and Elton John find adoption no problem.
You are now asking for sheer speculation, given that I have made it plain I have no evidence upstream of the point at which the MW system was dropped in situ.

It is clear you have still not gone through the files to identify who had the capability, otherwise you would not be asking the questions you are asking.
What's up, old man?

Offline G-Unit

You are now asking for sheer speculation, given that I have made it plain I have no evidence upstream of the point at which the MW system was dropped in situ.

It is clear you have still not gone through the files to identify who had the capability, otherwise you would not be asking the questions you are asking.

You have not been able to show that the MW booking system was different to the Thomas Cook booking system. Until you can do that there's no reason to suppose it made a difference.

I have identified at least 12 people who could access the computer systems.

I have identified at least 8 people who could access the apartment keys held by reception.

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Offline ShiningInLuz

You have not been able to show that the MW booking system was different to the Thomas Cook booking system. Until you can do that there's no reason to suppose it made a difference.

I have identified at least 12 people who could access the computer systems.

I have identified at least 8 people who could access the apartment keys held by reception.
I have had another look because I did all this months back and memory is a tricky beast.

It is Thomas Cook, so at least I got that one right.  Now try their web site.  The TC split is 0-2, 2-18, 18+. There isn't info beyond that.  Madeleine would have appeared as 2-18, with no indication she was 3.

Your list of 12 people who could access the IT sounds big to me, so I'm not sure in what sense you mean access.  Various people worked from printed records, but otherwise had no access, and would not have known of the booking until 27 Apr or 28 Apr.

The ones who had early access (as soon as the booking was made) I put at 4 but then stopped counting.

However, who controlled allocation of the T9 to block 5?  Allocating the T9 to a block or apartments near the Tapas area is what tilts in favour of use of the Tapas Restaurant, as opposed to the Millennium.

That element of control is what increases the possibility.

And I repeat again, whilst this information is in the files or on the net, I cannot prove it happened this way.
What's up, old man?

Offline G-Unit

I have had another look because I did all this months back and memory is a tricky beast.

It is Thomas Cook, so at least I got that one right.  Now try their web site.  The TC split is 0-2, 2-18, 18+. There isn't info beyond that.  Madeleine would have appeared as 2-18, with no indication she was 3.

Your list of 12 people who could access the IT sounds big to me, so I'm not sure in what sense you mean access.  Various people worked from printed records, but otherwise had no access, and would not have known of the booking until 27 Apr or 28 Apr.

The ones who had early access (as soon as the booking was made) I put at 4 but then stopped counting.

However, who controlled allocation of the T9 to block 5?  Allocating the T9 to a block or apartments near the Tapas area is what tilts in favour of use of the Tapas Restaurant, as opposed to the Millennium.

That element of control is what increases the possibility.

And I repeat again, whilst this information is in the files or on the net, I cannot prove it happened this way.

I looked at the Thomas Cook website and the ages are less specific. Nevertheless ages and associated extras became known at some point because cots and high chairs were placed in the apartments in advance.

As far as I can ascertain all reception staff plus all bookings staff would have been able to access the computer systems. They performed check-in and check-out procedures, some of which would require knowledge of extras owing. I can see no reason why access to certain areas of the system would have been restricted.

I don't see the relevance of controlling where the group were housed. It was near the Tapas, so what? Unless it was known at the time of booking that children were going to be left home alone every evening?

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Offline Alice Purjorick

You are now asking for sheer speculation, given that I have made it plain I have no evidence upstream of the point at which the MW system was dropped in situ.

It is clear you have still not gone through the files to identify who had the capability, otherwise you would not be asking the questions you are asking.

They are all perfectly straightforward questions which need to be answered in the broad term if you wish your theory to stand up to scrutiny.
So take it from my earlier post where I said Lay on Macduff.

At present your main thrust seems to be that in your opinion I have not read the files therefore what would I know about anything (a gross assumption which may or may not be right but you have no way of knowing for sure so why say so). Coupled with the the whole kin schmeer being run from the middle by a couple of opportunistic people who had access to things you deem essential for a planned abduction.
As an exercise in logistics, which is what it is when boiled down, so far your theory is unconvincing.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline ShiningInLuz

I looked at the Thomas Cook website and the ages are less specific. Nevertheless ages and associated extras became known at some point because cots and high chairs were placed in the apartments in advance.

As far as I can ascertain all reception staff plus all bookings staff would have been able to access the computer systems. They performed check-in and check-out procedures, some of which would require knowledge of extras owing. I can see no reason why access to certain areas of the system would have been restricted.

I don't see the relevance of controlling where the group were housed. It was near the Tapas, so what? Unless it was known at the time of booking that children were going to be left home alone every evening?
Let's see if we can clarify a bit.  Are you working under the assumption that reception staff at the Tapas and Millennium had computer access?  Under such circumstances there was no need for them to get paper reports.  ditto the cleaning supervisors.  I'm seeing paper reports printed the evening before to control these activities.  Therefore I am assuming the OC did not have a distributed network.  I do not know if you are counting those in your 12, but I'm excluding them.

The only ones with a legitimate need to update the booking system are those making bookings, those producing control reports, and the IT bod.  I can't remember if there was a bookkeeper, who might or might not have access to reservations.

As to why allocation is important.  First, from memory, that was done the evening before.  No one who had access could know the location in advance of that, with exception of those who would do the allocation. 

Second, why is location important.  I have yet to see any evidence of those guests located 100m plus from one of the two restaurants doing a listening check.  The Carpenters in Fiji Palms took their children to Tapas, as did other guests.  Others put their children in the crèche or hired nannies.

If the T9 had been 100m plus away as the crow flies, or out of eyesight, would they have used a listening scheme?  Or would they have thought it too risky and picked any of the alternatives, including take-aways (Berry+Balu), crèche, nanny, take kids to restaurant.

Blocks 4 and 5 look visually safe, in the sense that the apartments being above the Tapas can be seen.  I am not arguing how much the McCanns could see, merely that there is a false sense of security in being able to see the rear of one's apartment.

I don't think you get a decent view of block 6 from the Tapas restaurant, but I cannot be certain.  And I know very little about the layout of the Millennium.

I don't know the working range of the Payne's baby monitor, but I suspect it to would fail at much over 100m, due to obstacles in the way.

Plonk the T9 wherever in the OC is farthest from those 2 restaurants and the T9 would have been forced to scrap the listening idea.  The myth of the visit to Chaplins fails for that reason (and others).

It's not those who make the bookings or produce reports that have control.  They have knowledge, but not control.  It is those who determine the allocation of customers to locations that are important.  They have control.

Let me repeat.  I do not have proof of this happening that would stand up in a civil or criminal court.  I am merely pointing out a major weakness in the OC system, that a major change in 2007 was the MW booking info, and that Madeleine's disappearance happened relatively shortly after this change.
What's up, old man?

Offline ShiningInLuz

They are all perfectly straightforward questions which need to be answered in the broad term if you wish your theory to stand up to scrutiny.
So take it from my earlier post where I said Lay on Macduff.

At present your main thrust seems to be that in your opinion I have not read the files therefore what would I know about anything (a gross assumption which may or may not be right but you have no way of knowing for sure so why say so). Coupled with the the whole kin schmeer being run from the middle by a couple of opportunistic people who had access to things you deem essential for a planned abduction.
As an exercise in logistics, which is what it is when boiled down, so far your theory is unconvincing.
May I ask you, politely, if you read and absorb what I say?

If I could dot every i and cross every t, would I be putting this on the Internet?

When I say the total probability of all alternatives adds up to 40% rather than 100%, and the main deduction to be made from this is that my understanding is miles off being complete, is that unclear to you?

You are asking for speculation about 2 massive areas - paedophilia and child kidnap.  I do not have to spout about these, and I choose not to spout about these.

The reason I am saying you do not seem to have read the files using the information I have supplied is simple.  It gets you to names and potential motive.  You have neither.  Ergo you haven't gone back and looked.
What's up, old man?