Neville Bamber and Teddy bear in master bedroom

[John]

A thought came to me last night.

Why was the teddy bear in J & N B's bed? Two adult people do not usually have a teddy bear in bed with them. My conclusion to this is that the teddy bear was one of the twins, or SC's
But the twins were in bed before JB left WHF so could it have been SC's or had she bought it back from the children's bedroom? ( access to twins room from master bedroom)

This in turn made me think that maybe SC was in the bed beside June after  the twins where put to bed. This then began to make sense of SC not having any blood on her legs and feet....she was made to get out of the bed to the area she was found. No blood in bedroom from NB ! 

I started checking out times given that night and I've come to the conclusion that NB was shot downstairs NOT upstairs. My reasons are...

1) JB asks NB to collect last tractor load of rape. This is important because it makes NB's routine later than usual i.e. walking dogs/shower before bed.

2) BW rings farm at around 9.30 pm thinks she hears argument, 3) JB states he doesn't hear phone and left farm at 9.30pm. it is 9.50 pm when he rings JM. My opinion is he left WHF later than 9.30 pm, "just after 9.30 pm" according to neighbour. JB then rings JM 9.50 pm. The timing is important as JB says he has been on the phone to JM for 17 minutes. Time now... 10.07 pm. JB states he watches TV until 11.00 pm, and then goes to bed ( JB tells JM in second phone call he hasn't slept all night) 11.00 pm coincides with NB having finished collecting rape seed ( farm worker saw NB in field at 10 00 pm.) Approx time to collect rape seed given as 20 minutes, tractor then taken to yard, approx time 10 minutes...NB walks dogs as usual and has a shower...approx time ...30 minutes. total time 11.00 pm. If NB went into field at 9.45 pm... as he was still in WHF when JB left.... he would have finished collecting rape seed by 10.05 pm without taking time to put tractor in yard.( notice the similarity in time after phone call from JB to JM)  NB then spends 30 minutes walking dogs,and showering. 10.35.00 pm.  NB was used to having a cigarette, and gin and tonic before bed. Did JB leave his cottage at 11.00 pm knowing his father would be in the kitchen relaxing at this time. Did NB let JB into the house?! I find it strange that NB was found in the position of the chair he used at the table in WHF. Was there another argument that night in the kitchen?

Proud grandad Nevill Bamber holds one of the twins as a young Jeremy Bamber eats breakfast.



We will never know for sure but quite possibly one of the twins gave granny the teddy bear earlier.

As for the shootings, the spent bullet casings in and near the master bedroom evidence the fact that both June and Nevill were shot there, the latter having escaped downstairs (blood on stairs wall) to the kitchen where he was battered and shot several times again.

[Holly Goodhead]

Thirteen shell casings in the master bedroom ? But why should the evidence get in the way of a theory ? It never has before in this case.

There was a teddy bear in the master bedroom. Surely that means Sheila slept with June. Why ? So she could be nearer her 6 year old sons who were errrr in another room !

The reason why Sheila wanted to be nearer two six year old boys (who were in another bedroom) has yet to be given.

This theory is not as sick as the suggestion that Sheila and Neville shared a bed. Which three posters on Blue previously discussed.

13 shell casings were not found in the main bedroom. 

2 casings were found close to SC and clearly relate to her two gunshot wounds (gsw's).  7 were found around June's side of the bed.  2 were found just inside the door to the main bedroom leading from the landing.  1 was found on the transition strip between main bedroom door and landing and a further 1 was found on the landing.

The 7 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 11 and clearly relate to the 7 gsw's June sustained and the 4 gsw's NB sustained upstairs.

Due to JB's useless defence (yes that's is you Paul Terzeon and Geoffrey Rivlin prepare yourselves for the fallout  )  the prosecution were able to get away with DRH/7 featuring twice inside the main bedroom and the theory that a police officer unwittingly transferred a casing under his sole from the kitchen to the landing.

Why would two casings be given the same exhibit label DRH/7?
Why did they become DRH/7 a and DRH/7 b?
Why was the exhibit bag tampered with?  It was opened and resealed, why?
Exhibits/labels didn't need to be in any sequence.  DRH/43 was found two days later hence it has a higher number.  If another casing was found later why not just give it another number?

[John]

13 shell casings were not found in the main bedroom. 

2 casings were found close to SC and clearly relate to her two gunshot wounds (gsw's).  7 were found around June's side of the bed.  2 were found just inside the door to the main bedroom leading from the landing.  1 was found on the transition strip between main bedroom door and landing and a further 1 was found on the landing.

The 7 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 11 and clearly relate to the 7 gsw's June sustained and the 4 gsw's NB sustained upstairs.

Due to JB's useless defence (yes that's is you Paul Terzeon and Geoffrey Rivlin prepare yourselves for the fallout  )  the prosecution were able to get away with DRH/7 featuring twice inside the main bedroom and the theory that a police officer unwittingly transferred a casing under his sole from the kitchen to the landing.

Why would two casings be given the same exhibit label DRH/7?
Why did they become DRH/7 a and DRH/7 b?
Why was the exhibit bag tampered with?  It was opened and resealed, why?
Exhibits/labels didn't need to be in any sequence.  DRH/43 was found two days later hence it has a higher number.  If another casing was found later why not just give it another number?

I think you have miscounted Holly, thirteen were indeed associated with the master bedroom plus one on the stairs.

To recount, Nevill was shot 4 times in bedroom, June 7 times and Sheila twice.  That makes 13.

Nevill was shot a further 3 times in the kitchen and one other location, possibly as he made his way down the stairs.

The twins were shot a total of 8 times, Daniel 5 times and Nicholas three times. 

In total this comes to 25 bullets.

[Holly Goodhead]

I think you have miscounted Holly, thirteen were indeed associated with the master bedroom plus one on the stairs.

To recount, Nevill was shot 4 times in bedroom, June 7 times and Sheila twice.  That makes 13.

Nevill was shot a further 3 times in the kitchen and one other location, possibly as he made his way down the stairs.

The twins were shot can total of 8 times.  This makes a total of 25 bullets.

I don't think so but I've just removed a hold up so I can get beyond 10 and use my toes.  I'll report back later.

[John]

I don't think so but I've just removed a hold up so I can get beyond 10 and use my toes.  I'll report back later.

Well I have every bullet casing listed and it comes to 25.

Master Bedroom = 13
Stairs = 1
Children's Bedroom = 8
Kitchen = 3

Total = 25

[Holly Goodhead]

Well I have every bullet casing listed and it comes to 25.

Master Bedroom = 13
Stairs = 1
Children's Bedroom = 8
Kitchen = 3

Total = 25

I agree with all except the main bedroom.  (You refer to 1 on the stairs whereas I believe it was on the landing). 

Main bedroom:

DRH/1 -   Near SC's body
DRH/2 -   "
DRH/3 -   Near entrance
DRH/4 -   "
DRH/6 -   ) Under, on or around June's side of the bed
DRH/7 -   ) "
DRH/8 -   ) "
DRH/10 - ) "
DRH/11 - ) "
DRH/12 - ) "
DRH/43 - ) "
DRH/13 - On transition strip

TOTAL = 12 + DRH/14 on the landing = 13:

SC = 2 GSW's
June = 7 GSW's
NB = 4 GSW's

TOTAL = 13

I am not prepared to accept 2 casings were found in the main bedroom and both had the same exhibit label DRH/7. Every individual exhbit is given its own unique exhibit number.  It seems clear to me some tampering went on hence the exhibit bag containing DRH/7 was opened and another casing popped inside.  It was then resealed and DRH/7 became DRH/7a and DRH/7b.  This does not fit with the SoC photos or DC Hammersley's trial testimony.

[Opal]

I agree with the query Holly about the two casing DRH 07 being numbered the same. I believe there were two casing near the wardrobe...as stated... in fact one was found under the wardrobe on second inspection. My understanding of this is that casing DRH 43 was found on another day i.e. the following day hence a different number. BUT...in total there were only two casings found near the wardrobe. At the end of the report the casing that was found on the second day is bought into question. I therefore think there were only 11 casings found in the bedroom, one more found on the threshold of the door, the other found at bottom of stairs, making a total of 13 casings in bedroom and on stairs.

This would also account for DRH 07 bag being opened after first casing found the day before.

[Opal]

Regarding discussion about SC being in bed with JB. It is documented that schizophrenic patients feel 'loneliness'

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12580538


SC was away from her home..... recently been in hospital......and states she has found 'God'. SC could therefore  have been studying the bible in bed with her mother before going to sleep. Plus door leading from main bedroom leads through box room to twins room.

Did JB know that SC was in bed with JB that night?.....NO.

[scipio_usmc]

13 shell casings were not found in the main bedroom. 

2 casings were found close to SC and clearly relate to her two gunshot wounds (gsw's).  7 were found around June's side of the bed.  2 were found just inside the door to the main bedroom leading from the landing.  1 was found on the transition strip between main bedroom door and landing and a further 1 was found on the landing.

The 7 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 11 and clearly relate to the 7 gsw's June sustained and the 4 gsw's NB sustained upstairs.

Due to JB's useless defence (yes that's is you Paul Terzeon and Geoffrey Rivlin prepare yourselves for the fallout  )  the prosecution were able to get away with DRH/7 featuring twice inside the main bedroom and the theory that a police officer unwittingly transferred a casing under his sole from the kitchen to the landing.

Why would two casings be given the same exhibit label DRH/7?
Why did they become DRH/7 a and DRH/7 b?
Why was the exhibit bag tampered with?  It was opened and resealed, why?
Exhibits/labels didn't need to be in any sequence.  DRH/43 was found two days later hence it has a higher number.  If another casing was found later why not just give it another number?

13 spent cases were indeed found in the bedroom. 2 cases side by side were called DRH7 because they were practically touching one another and it was not possible to put 2 markers so close. The same thing was done with the bullets in June's. The same thing was also done with 2 casings in the Twin's room.

There is no doubt at all that Nevill was shot 4 times in the kitchen, that 1 of the spent cases associated with 1 of these shots was missing from the kitchen and thus had been accidentally transported elsewhere. The only case located in an arbitrary location was the one on the landing and that landing is part of the staircase hence why people sometimes say on the stairs.

1 spent case was on the bed and another 7 were found in the corner of June's side. These 8 cases were associated with 4 shots to Nevill and 4 shots to June delivered while they were on/in the bed. That is the only way in which the cases could get in such locations.  Aiming at somewhere other than the bed would result in the cases being in different locations. The 3 cases near the doorway were associated with the other 3 wounds June suffered. She was either out of bed or getting out when shot 2 times in the chest. The killer had to aim further to the right than when she was in bed and this in turn caused the cases to be further to the right of the other cases. The last was associated with the shot between her eyes. 



nt he room the twins were in.

[Opal]

The Order Of Shots.

JB = 6 Bedroom   
SC 1     Pathologist Report states SC would be immobilized after first shot.
NB = 2 on  Landing

Downstairs struggle NB immobilized ( pistol whipped.)
Reloads gun – 9 bullets ( one still in magazine )
NB   6 shots. Kitchen.

Reloads 6 more bullets. = 10 bullets   (Kitchen being handy place to be to reload!)

Upstairs. Shoots twins 8 times

Goes through to main bedroom. Shoots JB through eyes 
Finally one shot to SC. places empty gun on SC

Purpose of last shots to JB and SC was to confirm deaths. JB asks Police if they know the last person killed…..the purpose of this was to see if they knew SC was killed last. Hence pointing finger at SC for deaths. JB states Solicitor wanted to know relating to inheritance.

[scipio_usmc]

The Order Of Shots.

JB = 6 Bedroom   
SC 1     Pathologist Report states SC would be immobilized after first shot.
NB = 2 on  Landing

Downstairs struggle NB immobilized ( pistol whipped.)
Reloads gun – 9 bullets ( one still in magazine )
NB   6 shots. Kitchen.

Reloads 6 more bullets. = 10 bullets   (Kitchen being handy place to be to reload!)

Upstairs. Shoots twins 8 times

Goes through to main bedroom. Shoots JB through eyes 
Finally one shot to SC. places empty gun on SC

Purpose of last shots to JB and SC was to confirm deaths. JB asks Police if they know the last person killed…..the purpose of this was to see if they knew SC was killed last. Hence pointing finger at SC for deaths. JB states Solicitor wanted to know relating to inheritance.

The various shooting episodes were as follows:

1) Master Bedroom- 4 to Nevill's left side as he was sitting on the bed and 4 to June as she was in the bed. 2 more to June as she was getting out of bed or out of bed. Gun empty

2) Nevill knocked out in the kitchen, gun reloaded then Nevill shot 4 times in the head.  Rather than go upstairs with a partially loaded weapon killer dropped the magazine and reloaded the magazine to full capacity thus 10 in the magazine and 1 in the chamber.

3) 1 shot fired between June's eyes to make sure she was dead, 8 shots fired to kill the boys and the last 2 remaining rounds fired into Sheila hence weapon empty.

[Holly Goodhead]

CAL interviewed Dr Vanezis, pathologist, and Malcolm Fletcher, ballistics, for her book published last year and  neither of these experts agreed on the order of shots.  In fact their accounts were wildly different.  If the experts involved in the case are unable to agree some 30 years on what hope is there?!

[Holly Goodhead]

13 spent cases were indeed found in the bedroom. 2 cases side by side were called DRH7 because they were practically touching one another and it was not possible to put 2 markers so close. The same thing was done with the bullets in June's. The same thing was also done with 2 casings in the Twin's room.

There is no doubt at all that Nevill was shot 4 times in the kitchen, that 1 of the spent cases associated with 1 of these shots was missing from the kitchen and thus had been accidentally transported elsewhere. The only case located in an arbitrary location was the one on the landing and that landing is part of the staircase hence why people sometimes say on the stairs.

1 spent case was on the bed and another 7 were found in the corner of June's side. These 8 cases were associated with 4 shots to Nevill and 4 shots to June delivered while they were on/in the bed. That is the only way in which the cases could get in such locations.  Aiming at somewhere other than the bed would result in the cases being in different locations. The 3 cases near the doorway were associated with the other 3 wounds June suffered. She was either out of bed or getting out when shot 2 times in the chest. The killer had to aim further to the right than when she was in bed and this in turn caused the cases to be further to the right of the other cases. The last was associated with the shot between her eyes. 

nt he room the twins were in.

I disagree.  I think 12 casings were found in the main bedroom including the casing on the transition strip.

Where's the formal explanation saying if exhibits are "practically touching one another" they are given the same exhibit number?  The rifle was touching SC's nightdress but both had separate exhibit numbers.

I agree it's most likely NB was shot four times in the kitchen but the fact only three casings were found doesn't mean DRH/14 found on the landing was transferred under an officers sole.  There's no firm evidence for this.  It was and remains simply a theory which supports the prosecutions case.  It could mean that the casing which measures about about 1cm in length and 0.5cm in diameter was simply swept up with the debris in the kitchen eg broken crockery, lampshade and sugar.  The carpet was patterned brown and the small brass casing could easily get lost.  DC Hammersly confirmed at trial he did not check any sweepings.  It could have landed down some nook or cranny or been transferred outside WHF under an officers sole.  Or it could have fallen down the back of NB's pyjama top.

There are seven casings on, under or around June's side of the bed which imo pertain to the shots June sustained.  The casings around the entrance of the door, on the transition strip and on the landing, four in total, pertain to the shots NB sustained imo.

I know you disagree Scipio but we'll have to agree to disagree. 

[Holly Goodhead]

I agree with the query Holly about the two casing DRH 07 being numbered the same. I believe there were two casing near the wardrobe...as stated... in fact one was found under the wardrobe on second inspection. My understanding of this is that casing DRH 43 was found on another day i.e. the following day hence a different number. BUT...in total there were only two casings found near the wardrobe. At the end of the report the casing that was found on the second day is bought into question. I therefore think there were only 11 casings found in the bedroom, one more found on the threshold of the door, the other found at bottom of stairs, making a total of 13 casings in bedroom and on stairs.

This would also account for DRH 07 bag being opened after first casing found the day before.

I've 'liked' you for agreeing with me Opal.  If you want to increase your 'Like' stats you know what to do  %£&)**#

[Holly Goodhead]

I've 'liked' Scipio's post #38 too even though I disagree!