Neville Bamber and Teddy bear in master bedroom

[scipio_usmc]

CAL interviewed Dr Vanezis, pathologist, and Malcolm Fletcher, ballistics, for her book published last year and  neither of these experts agreed on the order of shots.  In fact their accounts were wildly different.  If the experts involved in the case are unable to agree some 30 years on what hope is there?!

What they can't tell for sure is the order of the exact order of 10 shots in the first episode. While it is rather obvious June chest shots were fired at her after the 4 shots where she was in bed there is no way to know the order of the 4 shots in bed. Nor is there a way to know whether all were fired at her then Nevill targeted or a mix of the shots. 

In the second kitchen shooting episode there is know why to know whether the first 2 shots fired were to the tip of the skull ad latter 2 to the right side or vice versa. We just know these were the next 4 shots fired.

Nor can they tell which twin was shot first. One was shot then the other but no way to know who was shot first for certain. For that matter there is no way to know for certain whether the shot between June's eyes was before or after killing the boys and it is even possible though not likely that Sheila was shot and killed before the twins.

We know 10 rounds were fired in the master bedroom at the parents and the wounds they caused but not the precise order of these shots.

We know after Nevill was beaten unconscious the gun was reloaded and 4 rounds fired into Nevill's head though not the precise order of these shots.

We know the gun was then fully reloaded so that it had 11 and that 1 was fired between June's eyes, 2 into Sheila and 8 into the boys but not the precise order of these shots.

The evidence can only tell who was shot where and which loading of the magazine corresponded to the shootings.  Only a witness could describe the exact order and usually that is often not fully accurate because in the heat of the moment people are not paying careful attention. Even shooters often don't remember the exact order or number of shots they fired.

[scipio_usmc]

I disagree.  I think 12 casings were found in the main bedroom including the casing on the transition strip.

Where's the formal explanation saying if exhibits are "practically touching one another" they are given the same exhibit number?  The rifle was touching SC's nightdress but both had separate exhibit numbers.

I agree it's most likely NB was shot four times in the kitchen but the fact only three casings were found doesn't mean DRH/14 found on the landing was transferred under an officers sole.  There's no firm evidence for this.  It was and remains simply a theory which supports the prosecutions case.  It could mean that the casing which measures about about 1cm in length and 0.5cm in diameter was simply swept up with the debris in the kitchen eg broken crockery, lampshade and sugar.  The carpet was patterned brown and the small brass casing could easily get lost.  DC Hammersly confirmed at trial he did not check any sweepings.  It could have landed down some nook or cranny or been transferred outside WHF under an officers sole.  Or it could have fallen down the back of NB's pyjama top.

There are seven casings on, under or around June's side of the bed which imo pertain to the shots June sustained.  The casings around the entrance of the door, on the transition strip and on the landing, four in total, pertain to the shots NB sustained imo.

I know you disagree Scipio but we'll have to agree to disagree.

Your position is being driven by your desired outcome. Nevill being shot while on the bed precludes Jeremy being innocent and since you want to believe he is innocent it means you have chosen to ignore the evidence that proves he was shot in bed. 

Your claims related to the cases hold no water nor do your claims related to the trajectory of the wounds. It is impossible for the trajectory of the wounds to be delivered as Nevill was walking up the stairs or through the bedroom door.  The trajectory of the wounds makes clear he was seated when shot with the killer to his left side and cases correspond with where they would be if the shots were fired at someone on Nevill's side of the bed. 

You are so desperate that you keep denying that DRH/7 consisted of 2 cases though the person who labeled it says it was 2 cases, the photos taken confirm there were 2 cases and the lab examined 2 cases. I posted the examination record. It contains sketches of 2 separate cases.  Aside from the fact it clearly says they were labeled 7A and 7B on the examination record for the sake of convenience, you can see the firing pin impressions are in very different locations on each. Suggesting that they accidentally threw away the 4th case from the kitchen and then made up there was an extra case in the bedroom is not worthy of you, it something Mike would make up.

This is from Hamersley's report where he listed the evidence he collected:



This is the lab examination record:



This was not the only exhibit consisting of 2 spent cases. DRH/39 was recovered underneath Nicholas' bed and likewise it consisted of 2 cases.





So cases recovered side by side underneath furniture in 2 separate rooms were grouped together into a single exhibit. There is nothing suspicious about this.

In the evidence diagram it is readily apparent that the casings are grouped. There are 2 on Nevill's side of the bed associated with Sheila's wounds.  There are 4 total (1 on June's side of the bed and 3 more on the floor very close to her bed) that are all close together that correspond to shooting at someone on Nevill's side of the bed.  There is another group of 4 further away that corresponds to where they would be shooting at someone on June's side of the bed.  There are 2 more near the door where they would be if shooting at someone who was standing up near June's side of the bed. The there is the lone one associated with June's shot between her eyes.



Refusing to agree with the evidence accomplishes nothing except easing your mind enough to let you live in denial. That accomplishes nothing in any larger sense. it certainly doesn't provide a basis to trash the defense for facing the evidence.

[John]

The way I see it we cannot be 100% sure of any of the casing positions, the one found on the landing could have been ejected there, it could have been transferred on a policemans boot or it could have rolled down the stairs.  It is pointless arguing the point.

In relation to forensics item DRH/7 there were indeed two casings found side by side. DRH/7 does not relate to a casing, it relates to a sample bag containing two casings.

Twenty five shots discharged, twenty five casings accounted for.  I might split this thread as we appear to have lost poor teddy in all of this.

[scipio_usmc]

The way I see it we cannot be 100% sure of any of the casing positions, the one found on the landing could have been ejected there, it could have been transferred on a policemans boot or it could have rolled down the stairs.  It is pointless arguing the point.

In relation to forensics item DRH/7 there were indeed two casings found side by side. DRH/7 does not relate to a casing, it relates to a sample bag containing two casings.

Twenty five shots discharged, twenty five casings accounted for.  I might split this thread as we appear to have lost poor teddy in all of this.

There were definitely 4 shots fired in the kitchen 1 of which was missing because it was accidentally transferred elsewhere.

The 4 casings associated with Nevill's upstairs wounds were all accounted for in the bedroom.

It's impossible for a casing to get on the landing from shooting Nevill inside the bedroom it could only get there if shooting at him while he was in the bedroom and the killer was shooting from the hallway. Shooting at him while he was on the stairs would result in the casing being ejected down to the bottom of the stairs.  Only if the ejection port were on the left could it land on the landing in such location while shooting at someone who is on the stairs. In the meantime the left to right trajectories of the bullets are impossible to achieve if someone was on the stairs. There is no question that the casing was transferred from the kitchen to the landing.

 

[John]

It's impossible for a casing to get on the landing from shooting Nevill inside the bedroom it could only get there if shooting at him while he was in the bedroom and the killer was shooting from the hallway. Shooting at him while he was on the stairs would result in the casing being ejected down to the bottom of the stairs.  Only if the ejection port were on the left could it land on the landing in such location while shooting at someone who is on the stairs. In the meantime the left to right trajectories of the bullets are impossible to achieve if someone was on the stairs. There is no question that the casing was transferred from the kitchen to the landing.

Never say never scipio. We just can't be 100% sure where Nevill was shot, all we can go on is the position of the casings.  Police all wear boots with chunky treads, it is so easy to move something by accident.

[Myster]

There was also the possibility of a stovepipe jam of the fourth casing which resulted in it being carried up to the lower landing and released there by JB. The Anschutz took a severe pounding in the kitchen for a piece of the stock to break off it, and could have resulted in damage to the ejection mechanism, as M. Fletcher was later to find out.

[scipio_usmc]

Never say never scipio. We just can't be 100% sure where Nevill was shot, all we can go on is the position of the casings.  Police all wear boots with chunky treads, it is so easy to move something by accident.

Surely you are not suggesting that police possibly got numerous casings stuck to their shoes and relocated numerous cases. The kitchen is what they walked through and had the opportunity to relocate from and they relocated 1 such casing. There is no doubt in my mind that the casing on the landing is that casing just as was suggested at trial.

Sometimes there really is a never. Some things are not possible.  It is not possible for the graze wound or shot to Nevill's shoulder to have been delivered while Nevill was on the stairs.  Never really is never. The lip and jaw shots could only be delivered while Nevill was on the stairs if Nevill was walking up while the killer was near Sheila's doorway and fired.

The location of the casings on the bed/right next to the bed can only arrive their naturally when shooting at someone who is on the bed. 8 cases were there that is more than June suffered so at least 1 had to be fired at Nevill. For sure at least 1 shot was fired while Nevill was in the bed.  It is clear at least 3 were fired while he was in the bed though based on the trajectory of the wounds. So you have 2 distinct things pointing to such the cases as well as the trajectory.

Nevill being shot 3 times in bed and also shot while walking up the stairs from someone located near Sheila's door doesn't compute. They are incompatible.  The best someone can toss out is that Nevill was shot 3 times in bed hen the killer went into the hall and as Nevill was  walking next to his side of the bed with his left profile facing the killer, the killer fired the shot that grazed him. That's the only realistic scenario that could account for a casing on the landing naturally.  Then one has to argue that one of the casings near the door was from the kitchen. It makes little sense for the killer to run out into the hall to shoot Nevill as he was standing on his side of the bed walking around it. The graze wound is impossible to achieve except with Nevill's left side facing the shooter. That severely limits the possibilities. Once Nevill is out of bed and turns at the foot of the bed to face the door then the ability to inflict the graze wound is gone. 

[scipio_usmc]

There was also the possibility of a stovepipe jam of the fourth casing which resulted in it being carried up to the lower landing and released there by JB. The Anschutz took a severe pounding in the kitchen for a piece of the stock to break off it, and could have resulted in damage to the ejection mechanism, as M. Fletcher was later to find out.

It is possible though seems more likely he would clear the weapon before leaving the kitchen. It's not impossible he tried to do so as he was walking though I would prefer doing it in safety. 

[John]

Surely you are not suggesting that police possibly got numerous casings stuck to their shoes and relocated numerous cases. The kitchen is what they walked through and had the opportunity to relocate from and they relocated 1 such casing. There is no doubt in my mind that the casing on the landing is that casing just as was suggested at trial.

Sometimes there really is a never. Some things are not possible.  It is not possible for the graze wound or shot to Nevill's shoulder to have been delivered while Nevill was on the stairs.  Never really is never. The lip and jaw shots could only be delivered while Nevill was on the stairs if Nevill was walking up while the killer was near Sheila's doorway and fired.

The location of the casings on the bed/right next to the bed can only arrive their naturally when shooting at someone who is on the bed. 8 cases were there that is more than June suffered so at least 1 had to be fired at Nevill. For sure at least 1 shot was fired while Nevill was in the bed.  It is clear at least 3 were fired while he was in the bed though based on the trajectory of the wounds. So you have 2 distinct things pointing to such the cases as well as the trajectory.

Nevill being shot 3 times in bed and also shot while walking up the stairs from someone located near Sheila's door doesn't compute. They are incompatible.  The best someone can toss out is that Nevill was shot 3 times in bed hen the killer went into the hall and as Nevill was  walking next to his side of the bed with his left profile facing the killer, the killer fired the shot that grazed him. That's the only realistic scenario that could account for a casing on the landing naturally.  Then one has to argue that one of the casings near the door was from the kitchen. It makes little sense for the killer to run out into the hall to shoot Nevill as he was standing on his side of the bed walking around it. The graze wound is impossible to achieve except with Nevill's left side facing the shooter. That severely limits the possibilities. Once Nevill is out of bed and turns at the foot of the bed to face the door then the ability to inflict the graze wound is gone.

The problem is that we just cannot be sure.  It is highly unlikely that all casings were displaced by being trod on but those which fell on stairs, landing or high traffic areas could well have been.  When armed police enter a house in poor light conditions all sorts of things get kicked about.

Your point that Nevill could not have been shot going down the stairs is also unsound.  For all we know Nevill went down the stairs but turned round to face his attacker only to be shot again.  Point is that it could have happened but there is no way to prove it.  Only his assailant knows for sure.

[John]

It is possible though seems more likely he would clear the weapon before leaving the kitchen. It's not impossible he tried to do so as he was walking though I would prefer doing it in safety.

In the heat of the moment many a thing can happen which otherwise might not have happened by design.

[APRIL]

In the heat of the moment many a thing can happen which otherwise might not have happened by design.

Yipeee!!!! Thank God for someone who recognizes that this was NEVER a case of "painting by numbers" and people don't always act true to form.

[Opal]

Perhaps someone can tell me if I'm right or not here....

When shooting at bunnies it's best to use a shotgun instead of a rifle, the reason being that the pellets spread more on firing than a rifle, giving more chance of hitting a moving target? If this is right, then I'm sure NB would have known this...being a farmer...and also JB. There were plenty of other guns in the property, why did JB choose to use the rifle?

[John]

Perhaps someone can tell me if I'm right or not here....

When shooting at bunnies it's best to use a shotgun instead of a rifle, the reason being that the pellets spread more on firing than a rifle, giving more chance of hitting a moving target? If this is right, then I'm sure NB would have known this...being a farmer...and also JB. There were plenty of other guns in the property, why did JB choose to use the rifle?

A good question Opal, he must have known that the .22 rifle would have been pretty useless when fired at a human but then that is why he used mostly head shots to put his victims down.  I believe he greatly underestimated the power of the rifle and was shocked when he realised how many bullets he was going to have to use.  If you think about it, shooting small children in the head three and five times must be the most callous thing ever.  If ever there was a case for capital punishment this was it!

[Caroline]

Perhaps someone can tell me if I'm right or not here....

When shooting at bunnies it's best to use a shotgun instead of a rifle, the reason being that the pellets spread more on firing than a rifle, giving more chance of hitting a moving target? If this is right, then I'm sure NB would have known this...being a farmer...and also JB. There were plenty of other guns in the property, why did JB choose to use the rifle?

Not really an expert on guns but I would have thought the rifle was better suited, I think (especially with the sites), it would be more accurate and a shot gun would would damage the property - given that he was 'supposed' to be shooting them in the yard.

What is odd, was that he initially said he had shit the rifle then changed his mind (like you could forget), guess he realised there was no physical evidence of such shots being that he made up the story about the rabbits.

[Myster]

A good question Opal, he must have known that the .22 rifle would have been pretty useless when fired at a human but then that is why he used mostly head shots to put his victims down.  I believe he greatly underestimated the power of the rifle and was shocked when he realised how many bullets he was going to have to use.  If you think about it, shooting small children in the head three and five times must be the most callous thing ever.  If ever there was a case for capital punishment this was it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loFOlPm_TIU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNaRqY--jFE