Author Topic: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??  (Read 31435 times)

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Offline puglove

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2016, 11:32:36 PM »
The standard Anschutz is about 43" long. If you've got a Stanley tape measure, extend and lock it at 43", plus another 7" if you think a moderator was fitted, hold it to your shoulder over a double bed at the foot end and see how close the rifle muzzle might have been to the head of someone in the act of getting up.

http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index.php5?produktID=313&menu=106&seite=51&sprache=1&produktShow=detail&dlfotos=1&PHPSESSID=77f29b217478cf5d82b7c0201cc4e627

You forgot about the other two wounds to Nevill's left shoulder and arm. Where did the ejected casings finish up if SC then had to move out of the doorway onto the landing to get those shots in as Nevill stumbled downstairs back to the kitchen?  They couldn't have been DRH 13 and 14, because the casings ejected up and forward to the right and must have flown over the banister rail onto the lower staircase treads.

In any event, Jeremy Bamber's whole phone call story is unbelievable. It's impossible to think that Nevill would allow his daughter to slip past him in the kitchen armed with a loaded rifle while he fumbled about dialling a six-figure number, then waited for his son to wake from a deep sleep (in his own words "like a log") before answering. Any father's first move would be to follow his daughter immediately and disarm her before she had the chance to fire off any shots.

https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call

If Sheila had "the gun" (as quoted by Bamber), which presumably meant holding it, being in charge of it, and knowing how to chamber and reload it, there could not have been an opportunity for Ralph to step away from the situation and waste precious time calling Bamber, and hoping that he'd eventually pick up. If at this stage no one had been injured, Ralph would have done his utmost to reason with her, calm her down, disarm her. If Ralph had already been injured, there WOULD have been blood on and around the phone (the first point that I made on blue, years ago). If June and the twins had obviously been shot and probably mortally wounded yet Ralph hadn't, he would have done his best to escape from the farm and run to the nearest cottage for help. If he THEN called Bamber, it would have been to warn him, not invite him into danger. These are simple facts that Bamber failed to think through.

Plus.....the blood spots on the bedroom carpet were never properly analysed (as Scipio has pointed out) so some of them could have been from Ralph.

Seriously, what are the chances that the whole family were at the farm, the phones were dodgy and all over the place, Bamber had a new gun that had nothing to do with farming, he'd been bragging about being Lord of the manor, he'd told Julie about his plans (if you believe her or not, personally I do because she had so much to lose she could have been ripped to bits in court if she was lying) and why did Bamber ask Sheila when she and the boys would next be visiting the farm? He had never shown the slightest interest before. And his behaviour during and after the loss of the only family he'd ever known was shameful.

And...the caravan park robbery.
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline adam

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2016, 06:53:49 AM »
So have I.  You can't possibly believe that Nevill would allow Sheila out of his sight if she'd got hold of the rifle.

He'd say something along the lines of - "Where are you going to with that?"

"It's alright dad, I'm just off upstairs to take a few potshots at mum!"

"Oh no you're not, gal!" and he'd make to grab it off her straight away, before making any phone call.

JB has got his call to the Mirror reporter off pat.  Doesn't this excerpt sound very rehearsed to you?  - "I need more information - what, where, how, you know... what do you need me to do, how can I..." -

https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call


The reason people like Bamber and OJ can go on tape and say they are innocent, is because they believe they were justified in their actions. Although they know legally they broke the law.

OJ  said to his long term girlfriend after his acquittal that Nicole 'deserved it'. Before the murders he was stumping out huge alimony payments to her and told people 'she would be nothing without me'. When Nicole started having public affairs and dictating when he could see the children, OJ took his action.

Bamber justified to Julie why each person should die. Doing CC a favour etc. He also wanted the inheritance and felt he was being treated unfairly.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 11:58:15 AM by John »

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2016, 06:25:03 PM »
I see you've got some drawing to do.  Why not use this online program...

http://drawisland.com/

I've just tried it by importing the shell casing plan using the Browse button under the workspace, then drawing a couple of ovals and a straight line to represent two figures and the shot direction.

Thanks.  I fear I will have to take myself off into a room and sit quietly for days or weeks until I could get together anything anyone would recognise!  I'll give it a go though.  But really what's required is a 3d animated vid.  I remember Abs sent me some homemade humorous vids she made which were brill and funny but she's no longer around  8)><(  I think I will see if I can outsource  ?>)()<  What are people called who do this sort of thing?  Is it CAD?   

Do you know if any scaled plans of WHF exist?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2016, 06:44:00 PM »
If Sheila had "the gun" (as quoted by Bamber), which presumably meant holding it, being in charge of it, and knowing how to chamber and reload it, there could not have been an opportunity for Ralph to step away from the situation and waste precious time calling Bamber, and hoping that he'd eventually pick up. If at this stage no one had been injured, Ralph would have done his utmost to reason with her, calm her down, disarm her. If Ralph had already been injured, there WOULD have been blood on and around the phone (the first point that I made on blue, years ago). If June and the twins had obviously been shot and probably mortally wounded yet Ralph hadn't, he would have done his best to escape from the farm and run to the nearest cottage for help. If he THEN called Bamber, it would have been to warn him, not invite him into danger. These are simple facts that Bamber failed to think through.

Plus.....the blood spots on the bedroom carpet were never properly analysed (as Scipio has pointed out) so some of them could have been from Ralph.

Seriously, what are the chances that the whole family were at the farm, the phones were dodgy and all over the place, Bamber had a new gun that had nothing to do with farming, he'd been bragging about being Lord of the manor, he'd told Julie about his plans (if you believe her or not, personally I do because she had so much to lose she could have been ripped to bits in court if she was lying) and why did Bamber ask Sheila when she and the boys would next be visiting the farm? He had never shown the slightest interest before. And his behaviour during and after the loss of the only family he'd ever known was shameful.

And...the caravan park robbery.

I accept the carpet probably wasn't examined as it would be today.  I thought the two samples tested were from NB's side of the bed but looking at the attached it seems they were taken from where SC and June were found.  You can aslo see DRH/47 and DRH/49 which relate to small areas of blood staining on the landing.  Tests carried out on these exhibits were inconclusive. But I can't see how the location of the casings in the bedroom or landing lend to a scenario of JB approaching the bedroom from the stairs?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2016, 06:49:27 PM »

The reason people like Bamber and OJ can go on tape and say they are innocent, is because they believe they were justified in their actions. Although they know legally they broke the law.

OJ  said to his long term girlfriend after his acquittal that Nicole 'deserved it'. Before the murders he was stumping out huge alimony payments to her and told people 'she would be nothing without me'. When Nicole started having public affairs and dictating when he could see the children, OJ took his action.

Bamber justified to Julie why each person should die. Doing CC a favour etc. He also wanted the inheritance and felt he was being treated unfairly.

Are you able to provide your theory as to how JB murdered NB please based on blood staining to carpets, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracts?  I've pretty much given up reading Blue so if you've done previously then please just provide the link.  Thanks Adam.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2016, 08:30:10 PM »
Thanks.  I fear I will have to take myself off into a room and sit quietly for days or weeks until I could get together anything anyone would recognise!  I'll give it a go though.  But really what's required is a 3d animated vid.  I remember Abs sent me some homemade humorous vids she made which were brill and funny but she's no longer around  8)><(  I think I will see if I can outsource  ?>)()<  What are people called who do this sort of thing?  Is it CAD?   

Do you know if any scaled plans of WHF exist?

These are the nearest thing to scaled plans, but I think they're about as accurate as you will get... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=633.0;attach=6981

Probably traced by a police draftsman from some obtained at the Local Planning Department or from the family. Or maybe from the builder who converted the Back Kitchen into an Office/Den, Scullery, Upper Office and Store Room.

If I remember correctly, the solid external walls are about 13½"-14" thick (i.e. 9" brick length + a 4½" brick width plus mortar joint). So the room sizes, door and window openings, etc. can be roughly estimated from that. Perhaps a bit technical for you though?

The above plans are ones I developed further by guesswork, here... (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947), before we had photos of later plans like these in plastic covers (thanks to abs)...

[attachment deleted by admin]
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Myster

It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Myster

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2016, 09:35:03 PM »
But really what's required is a 3d animated vid.  I remember Abs sent me some homemade humorous vids she made which were brill and funny but she's no longer around  8)><(  I think I will see if I can outsource  ?>)()<  What are people called who do this sort of thing?  Is it CAD?   

Are you serious?  Is it really worth the time, effort and money for a CAD (computer-aided design), animation or whatever, which will probably turn out woefully inaccurate?
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2016, 06:08:12 PM »
These are the nearest thing to scaled plans, but I think they're about as accurate as you will get... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=633.0;attach=6981

Probably traced by a police draftsman from some obtained at the Local Planning Department or from the family. Or maybe from the builder who converted the Back Kitchen into an Office/Den, Scullery, Upper Office and Store Room.

If I remember correctly, the solid external walls are about 13½"-14" thick (i.e. 9" brick length + a 4½" brick width plus mortar joint). So the room sizes, door and window openings, etc. can be roughly estimated from that. Perhaps a bit technical for you though?

The above plans are ones I developed further by guesswork, here... (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947), before we had photos of later plans like these in plastic covers (thanks to abs)...

Thanks.  Way too technical for me.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2016, 06:22:26 PM »
Are you serious?  Is it really worth the time, effort and money for a CAD (computer-aided design), animation or whatever, which will probably turn out woefully inaccurate?

Yes I am serious.  I guess it doesn't need to be highly accurate just convey the general ideas in graphic format.  It could be quite a powerful tool.  The proseuction case against JB is that he entered WHF under stealth and entered the main bedroom where he shot June a total of 7 x's and NB 4 x's.  And yet the blood staining on carpets or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks simply do not support this.   
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 07:00:09 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2016, 06:45:31 PM »
Is there any firm pathological evidence the gsw June sustained between the eyes incapacitated her instantaneously?  Or is it possible she sustained all 7 gsw's in quick succession?  I think Dr V said he was unable to give an opinion about the order of gsw's June sustained?

If the latter, it is possible the perp had a full mag and 1 in the breech:  7 x June, 4 x NB upstairs? The mag was then partially reloaded in the kitchen resulting in the 4 gsw's NB sustained in the kitchen.  If the mag was then fully loaded: 5 x DC, 3 x NC and 2 x SC?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2016, 06:50:13 PM »
From CoA:

43. Mrs Bamber was bare footed and dressed in a nightdress. She had received seven gunshot wounds, of which one to her forehead and one to the right side of the head would have caused death very quickly. She also suffered shots to the right side of the lower part of her neck, the right forearm, two injuries to the right side of the chest and to the right knee. There was a great deal of blood on her body and clothing and from its pattern, it appeared that at some stage of the attack she had been in an upright position.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Opal

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2016, 10:13:25 PM »
Is there any firm pathological evidence the gsw June sustained between the eyes incapacitated her instantaneously?  Or is it possible she sustained all 7 gsw's in quick succession?  I think Dr V said he was unable to give an opinion about the order of gsw's June sustained?

If the latter, it is possible the perp had a full mag and 1 in the breech:  7 x June, 4 x NB upstairs? The mag was then partially reloaded in the kitchen resulting in the 4 gsw's NB sustained in the kitchen.  If the mag was then fully loaded: 5 x DC, 3 x NC and 2 x SC?

I've been trying to sort out the order of the murders with the rifle shots fired as well! I remember reading that JB told EP that he removed the full magazine and the bullet that was in the breech when he returned to the kitchen...but of course we only have his word for this! If JB didn't remove the bullet in the breech then what your saying is better than any order I've come up with.  8((()*/

Offline Myster

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2016, 06:30:19 PM »
Yet at the cottage, Bamber told David Boutflour there was no bullet in the breech but he had left the loaded magazine in the rifle.  He should have made his mind up as to which lie sounded more genuine.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2016, 10:53:00 PM »
Yet at the cottage, Bamber told David Boutflour there was no bullet in the breech but he had left the loaded magazine in the rifle.  He should have made his mind up as to which lie sounded more genuine.

In his 8th Aug WS he states he loaded 8 - 10 bullets into an empty mag and cocked the rifle.  Having shot nothing he removed the bullet from the breach and popped it into the mag. 

If he's innocent is he likely to remember what he did?  It was just a normal part of farming life.  He may well have felt embarrassed/guilty about leaving the rifle in such a reckless way.  I don't know where the law stood then.  When PS Adams asked about the firearms JB said something like I should say the bolts have been removed implying there were some rules/law about the safety aspect.

I've always thought NB would make safe and put away if left hanging around, especially with small children in the house.  But he was short with BW, working late and may have been involved in some heavy discussions re SC's and the twins future and it was simply overlooked. 

If he's guilty he could say anything.

In any event I'm now going for a full load with one in the breach resulting in 7 gsw's to June and 4 gsw's to NB.  To my mind no other scenario makes sense.  I've always felt uncomfortable about the shot June sustained between the eyes being delivered after the perp left the bedroom and returned.  I wrongly assumed there was some pathological evidence showing this shot incapacitated June instantaneously but I don't now believe there is. 

I remember Scipio saying something about some of the bullets had marks on which indicated they had been loaded once or twice previously and then emptied.  Apparently keeping the mag full weakens the mechanism. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5632.msg200222#msg200222
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?