Possible movements during night of Family on 6/7th August in WHF ??

[Myster]

Police

"The official police account of how Jeremy Bamber killed his family is contained in the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions in November 1985, written with a view to having him committed for trial.

Acknowledging that the order of death could not be determined with certainty, the report contends that:

...there were probably ten shots fired in the first fusillade [four into Nevill, one into Sheila and five into June] and the remaining three - two into June's head, one into Sheila's head- were inflicted after Ralph Nevill was killed in the kitchen.  Eight shots were fired into the boys - eight cases were recovered in their bedroom.  Four shots were fired into Ralph Nevill in the kitchen - namely, the two in his temple area and the two in the top of his head.  Three cartridge cases were recovered in the kitchen.  It is therefore reasonable to assume that the fourth cartridge case was carried on the feet of the killer, or possibly a police officer, and deposited on the stairway.

Probably 10 shots fired in the first fusillade?  Why not 11 with 1 in the breach? 

It appears all June's gsw's were sustained whilst she was in bed or getting out. 

The pathologist said SC's gsw's happened within a few seconds of each other http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732.  The police have JB in the kitchen with NB and then returning to the bedroom to inflict the fatal shot to SC.

Why is it reasoanble to assume that a fourth casing from a gsw NB sustained in the kitchen was transferred to the landing/stairway?  This was the casing PC Woodcock identified in his WS as PC Collins was mirroring up the stairs: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=249  The pathological evidence strongly suggests the casing found on the landing pertains to NB's elbow or shoulder gsw.

DRH14 is just as likely to be the result of JB's shooting as SC's... if it wasn't a stovepipe jam.

I have difficulty with the shot to June's head above her right ear, and whether she was capable of even walking around the bed after such an injury that would cause to the brain. Why not stick with the official line that DRH13 and DRH14 were the result of the two second-phase shots to her head while she was lying in the doorway?

[Holly Goodhead]

DRH14 is just as likely to be the result of JB's shooting as SC's... if it wasn't a stovepipe jam.

I have difficulty with the shot to June's head above her right ear, and whether she was capable of even walking around the bed after such an injury that would cause to the brain. Why not stick with the official line that DRH13 and DRH14 were the result of the two second-phase shots to her head while she was lying in the doorway?

There seems to be three possible theories as to how DRH/14 came to be where it was found by soc officers:

- Discharge of firearm by perp
- Stovepipe jam
- Transferred under foot of perp or police officer

I am sure I recall reading an 'official' doc where Dr Vanezis stated he was unable to give an opinion about the order of June's gsw's.  He was surely aware that June walked round the bed and was found by the door and would surely have said if one or more gsw's would have precluded this?  Perhaps I will email and ask.  I think any pathologist would be able to read the autopsy and provide an answer.  All we know from the info currently available is that the two head shots would have "probably caused death quite rapidly"? 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=690

DC Hammersley's trial testimony refers to "the plan" (third para down) which I assume is the casing layout diagram? 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=199

But it's not clear who produced this and when.   I guess Malcolm Fletcher or a firearms officer? 

As far as I'm aware Malcolm Fletcher didn't attend the SoC at any stage.  Dr Vanezis visited and the prosecution did too and I think that's about it. 

I can't see how it is possible for DRH/13 and 14 to relate to June's injuries?  If you consider any of the wound tracks and distance of shots I can't see a position the perp could hold the rifle in which would result in any casings on the landing/transition strip?

[Holly Goodhead]

The casing layout diagram has all 4 exited bullets relating to June whereas 3 exited: neck, arm and knee.

[Holly Goodhead]

If NB was on the stairs when he sustained the graze shot, which skimmed his elbow and chest, did the bullet DRH/5 pass through the banisters onto the landing carpet depositing two small blood stains DRH/47 and DRH/49 and then come to rest in the main bedroom?  As this bullet didn't actually enter I think it was probably carrying a fair bit of muzzle energy hence the potential to bounce around? 

Any ideas about the arrows pointing at DRH/5 and DRH/9?

[Holly Goodhead]

Re post #121 maybe DRH/13 but definitely not DRH/14.

[Holly Goodhead]

Senior Scientific Officer - Malcolm Fletcher

Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher believes that Jeremy fired eight shots into his parents first, and that Nevill escaped to try and raise the alarm using the telephone downstairs, while Jeremy forced Sheila into the master bedroom, where he shot her once; after killing Nevill, he returned to fire the fatal shots at June, and another at Sheila before expending the remaining bullets on Nicholas and Daniel. 

Even MF's reconstruction is at odds with the pathological evidence ie the two GSW's SC sustained happened within seconds: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732

It seems to me crazy to suggest JB would allow NB out of his sight. 

I stand by what I've said for a long time: lack of joined up thinking from the relevant experts and didn't have enough experience to deal with a SoC involving multiple shootings.  Other than Hungerford, Dunblane and Lake District  (Derrick Bird) I can't think of any other multiple shootings in UK? 

[Myster]

Senior Scientific Officer - Malcolm Fletcher

Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher believes that Jeremy fired eight shots into his parents first, and that Nevill escaped to try and raise the alarm using the telephone downstairs, while Jeremy forced Sheila into the master bedroom, where he shot her once; after killing Nevill, he returned to fire the fatal shots at June, and another at Sheila before expending the remaining bullets on Nicholas and Daniel. 

Even MF's reconstruction is at odds with the pathological evidence ie the two GSW's SC sustained happened within seconds: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732

It seems to me crazy to suggest JB would allow NB out of his sight. 

I stand by what I've said for a long time: lack of joined up thinking from the relevant experts and didn't have enough experience to deal with a SoC involving multiple shootings.  Other than Hungerford, Dunblane and Lake District  (Derrick Bird) I can't think of any other multiple shootings in UK?

It seems crazy to believe that Nevill would allow Sheila out of his sight to waste time on the phone knowing that she had hold of a loaded weapon ready to use and was on her way upstairs.

[Myster]

Re post #121 maybe DRH/13 but definitely not DRH/14.

If DRH14 was in the middle of the lower landing, JB might have accidentally kicked it to one side so that it ended up close by the skirting.

[APRIL]

It seems crazy to believe that Nevill would allow Sheila out of his sight to waste time on the phone knowing that she had hold of a loaded weapon ready to use and was on her way upstairs.

Myster, the only scenario I ever entertained wasn't of a typically mad Sheila. In my scenario she was very quiet. Possibly lost too far in her own world to be reached, apparently calm, perhaps humming a tune or even talking quietly to herself. She would have been doing nothing with the gun, other than holding it. There may have been nothing -at that time- in her actions to alert Nevill to imminent danger. Her mood would, at some point, have had to change to give value to Nevill's alleged words to Jeremy. The only possibility -that I can see- is that he turned his back on her whilst he -allegedly- phoned Jeremy and in that moment she slipped upstairs. Nevill was then committed to waiting for Jeremy to answer. During his wait the shooting may have started. Unfortunately, when fully examined, my one time, theory doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[Myster]

If NB was on the stairs when he sustained the graze shot, which skimmed his elbow and chest, did the bullet DRH/5 pass through the banisters onto the landing carpet depositing two small blood stains DRH/47 and DRH/49 and then come to rest in the main bedroom?  As this bullet didn't actually enter I think it was probably carrying a fair bit of muzzle energy hence the potential to bounce around? 

Any ideas about the arrows pointing at DRH/5 and DRH/9?

DRH3 & DRH4 might have been accidentally kicked by June B from where the other casings landed, as she struggled to walk around the bed. Or even from somewhere else in the room!

No idea whether the blood on the upper landing was from NB, or from June B's head shot(s), because we don't know if it was tested.

When I first saw the arrow to DRH5 I thought that the bullet was found under the bed. But having seen the photo taken from the stairwell of the marker pointing to DRH5 hidden in some black clothing/cardigan/stockings, then it was obviously found there. It might have just landed, or again, had been kicked there accidentally... from inside the bedroom, not the landing!

DRH9 and DRH35(x2) also have arrow stubs which possibly merged higher up on the page. If the curved line of DRH5's arrow is extended from where it meets the bed up to the top of the page, then it appears to join the others. Perhaps there was some wording, such as "Bullets... etc." to distinguish them from casings, and the arrow stem(s) and words have later been erased to make the drawing clearer?

[Holly Goodhead]

It seems crazy to believe that Nevill would allow Sheila out of his sight to waste time on the phone knowing that she had hold of a loaded weapon ready to use and was on her way upstairs.

The difference between the two 'crazy' theories is that if NB called JB, SC hadn't actually fired any shots.  Whereas MF has JB shooting June and NB, allowing NB to go off whilst JB shoots SC once upstairs before ending up in the kitchen with NB.  If JB allowed NB to escape out of sight, albeit injured, whilst JB shot SC once NB could in the meantime arm himself; return the kitchen phone to the cradle and phone out; or flee the building to raise the alarm. 

[Holly Goodhead]

If DRH14 was in the middle of the lower landing, JB might have accidentally kicked it to one side so that it ended up close by the skirting.

It's possible.  It's also possible that DRH/14 relates to the shoulder or elbow gsw to NB which also happens to fit with the trajectories and blood stains found on the stairs.

[Holly Goodhead]

DRH3 & DRH4 might have been accidentally kicked by June B from where the other casings landed, as she struggled to walk around the bed. Or even from somewhere else in the room!

No idea whether the blood on the upper landing was from NB, or from June B's head shot(s), because we don't know if it was tested.

When I first saw the arrow to DRH5 I thought that the bullet was found under the bed. But having seen the photo taken from the stairwell of the marker pointing to DRH5 hidden in some black clothing/cardigan/stockings, then it was obviously found there. It might have just landed, or again, had been kicked there accidentally... from inside the bedroom, not the landing!

DRH9 and DRH35(x2) also have arrow stubs which possibly merged higher up on the page. If the curved line of DRH5's arrow is extended from where it meets the bed up to the top of the page, then it appears to join the others. Perhaps there was some wording, such as "Bullets... etc." to distinguish them from casings, and the arrow stem(s) and words have later been erased to make the drawing clearer?

It's possible the perp, June, police officers or even Crispy moved DRH/3 and 4, but again it's also possible they landed there as a result of the gsw's to NB's lip and jaw which also happen to fit with the trajectories. 

It would help enormously to have clarification on the nature of June's injuries ie did one or more gsw's preclude her from walking round the bed.  If not then I think it's likely she sustained all 7 in succession and the other 4 casings:  DRH/3,4, 13 and 14 pertain to NB. 

The two tiny blood spots foun on the landing were tested.  See my table as follows.  They are carpet fibres 95 and 96.  As you will see compared with the victims' samples the results were contradictory and therefore inconclusive.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg315462#msg315462

The location of exited bullets DRH/5 and 9 on the casing layout diagram correspond with DC Hammersley's trial testimony and soc photos referred to during his testimony.  But the casing layout diagram has all 4 exited bullets pertaining to June whereas she had 3 exit wounds.  I can see how an exited bullet from June's neck wound embedded in the pillow but I'm struggling to visualise the arm and knee shots.   

[Holly Goodhead]

Myster, the only scenario I ever entertained wasn't of a typically mad Sheila. In my scenario she was very quiet. Possibly lost too far in her own world to be reached, apparently calm, perhaps humming a tune or even talking quietly to herself. She would have been doing nothing with the gun, other than holding it. There may have been nothing -at that time- in her actions to alert Nevill to imminent danger. Her mood would, at some point, have had to change to give value to Nevill's alleged words to Jeremy. The only possibility -that I can see- is that he turned his back on her whilst he -allegedly- phoned Jeremy and in that moment she slipped upstairs. Nevill was then committed to waiting for Jeremy to answer. During his wait the shooting may have started. Unfortunately, when fully examined, my one time, theory doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

The image I have of SC in the kitchen with NB is based on CC's mother's WS:

"She [SC] went into a torrent of words saying she was hearing voices from God, and more words to this effect."

"When I arrived Sheila said that she was hearing voices, sometimes from God.  She said that she had to put the world to right, and spoke rapidly about many things that were troubling her.  She was very hyper-active."

"The Doctor wanted to give Sheila an injection but she wouldn't allow it so instead he prescribed pills."

I see SC in possession of the gun talking along the lines of the above which NB may have referred to as "crazy".  Then in the same way that SC wouldn't allow the Dr to inject her I see her being unwilling to hand over the rifle to NB. 

[Myster]

The image I have of SC in the kitchen with NB is based on CC's mother's WS:

"She [SC] went into a torrent of words saying she was hearing voices from God, and more words to this effect."

"When I arrived Sheila said that she was hearing voices, sometimes from God.  She said that she had to put the world to right, and spoke rapidly about many things that were troubling her.  She was very hyper-active."

"The Doctor wanted to give Sheila an injection but she wouldn't allow it so instead he prescribed pills."

I see SC in possession of the gun talking along the lines of the above which NB may have referred to as "crazy".  Then in the same way that SC wouldn't allow the Dr to inject her I see her being unwilling to hand over the rifle to NB.

Nope, that doesn't work for early August. Sheila was given three slow-release Haldol tranquiliser injections since CC's mother saw her 4 - 6 weeks before Easter (7th. April 1985). The first on leaving hospital - 29th March, the second - 2nd May and the third - 11th July. Primarily because she had difficulty popping pills regularly.

Her condition was controlled, over-controlled in fact, so much so that it was "flattening" her and making her lithargic, which is why her last dose was halved to 100mg. You only have to read what SC's bestie, Tora Tomkinson, thought about her weakness a week before the farm visit. Quiet on the journey from London the previous Sunday, subdued in the telephone chat with Junes's sister and according to Jeremy Bamber himself, saying very little in the conversation around the kitchen table on Wednesday night. Add depression into the mix and there is no way Sheila would have summoned up the strength and vindictivness to do what you believe she did. More likely that she was hitting the hay rather than chatting with her dad in the kitchen at 3:15am too.