How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?

[Robittybob1]

After 10 pm.

Irrelevant.

Don't talk to me like that.  Kate's alert is at 10:00.   Are you wanting someone to confirm the shutters were up before Kate's check? Be sensible.

[sadie]

We can't rule out that the window was opened and shutters were raised in an attempted burglary.  Maybe Gerry disturbed him and he left without entering.
That could be a solution!  For how did Gerry see Madeleine if the room was dark?  Gerry didn't turn the lights on did he? So where is the light coming from to admire his kids?  So were the shutters raised but he hadn't clicked that the room was lit up more than it should be if the shutters were down.  Matt had noticed the room brighter than his apartment but he failed to really question why.
Is this possible?  If there was enough light for Gerry why did Matt and Kate still have trouble seeing Madeleine?

It appears Operation Grange was keen on the idea of a botched burglary, but at what stage did it go wrong?  Here I'm proposing the burglary only proceeded as far as opening the window and raising the shutters at which point it was abandoned due to being too risky.
 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4001976/Madeleine-McCann-kidnapped-European-child-trafficking-ring-fear-British-Portuguese-police-forces-say-focusing-theory.html#ixzz4Tb3UcBw9

When he opened the door wouldn't the curtains have sucked into the room a little if the window was open?   

And even if it was the lull before the storm and the curtains were not affected by a gust as when Kate opened the door, I think he would have noticed the greater light within the room if the shutters were raised.

Based upon these two observations it seems unlikely that the window was open and the shutters raised.


The light by which he saw Madeleine would have come thru the gap in the door from the lamp left on in the sitting room, which gave a little light in the childrens bedroom ... and from the sparce light thru the shutter holes imo

[sadie]

1.Which burglars would they be?
2. "You do the thinking Butch that's what your good at".
Likely it was opening the window and firtling around trying to find the CDA to raise the shutter that was not so quiet.

Just because we have seen a video showing the shutter being raised, doesn't mean that the sound effects are genuine in their loudness or quietness.  Levels of sound can easily be adjusted to agree with someones agenda, if you know what I mean.

The truth of the matter is that we dont just KNOW how noisy the shutter was.  And if it was initially manually raised from the outside then there was a glazed window and curtains to help deaden the sound

[Robittybob1]

Just because we have seen a video showing the shutter being raised, doesn't mean that the sound effects are genuine in their loudness or quietness.  Levels of sound can easily be adjusted to agree with someones agenda, if you know what I mean.

The truth of the matter is that we dont just KNOW how noisy the shutter was.  And if it was initially manually raised from the outside then there was a glazed window and curtains to help deaden the sound

Absolutely possible, but at times it doesn't take much to wake a kid up.

[Robittybob1]

When he opened the door wouldn't the curtains have sucked into the room a little if the window was open?   

And even if it was the lull before the storm and the curtains were not affected by a gust as when Kate opened the door, I think he would have noticed the greater light within the room if the shutters were raised.

Based upon these two observations it seems unlikely that the window was open and the shutters raised.


The light by which he saw Madeleine would have come thru the gap in the door from the lamp left on in the sitting room, which gave a little light in the childrens bedroom ... and from the sparce light thru the shutter holes imo

Well this is one aspect that could be assessed in a reconstruction.  How do you get enough light in the room to see Madeleine as Gerry says he did?
Did he go into the room or was he just standing by the door?

[stephen25000]

Don't talk to me like that.  Kate's alert is at 10:00.   Are you wanting someone to confirm the shutters were up before Kate's check? Be sensible.

This has been dealt with before.

There is no independent verification the window was open before McCann went to the apartment.

[Robittybob1]

Is it possible to find out how far into the room Gerry went?
'Kate in her book says "seeing no little body curled up in our bed, he went over to look in on the children." 

From Peter Mac's book to save me typing the text "But a short time later
p. 70 (p. 92 in my book) “Gerry left to do the first check just before 9.05 by his watch . . .
Madeleine was lying there, on her left-hand side, her legs under the covers, in exactly the same position as we'd left her." [3]

Now Madeleine is reported to be on top of the bed, with only her legs covered, and it is said that this is how she had been left."
Then Gerry pulls the door nearly closed again.

During this visit Gerry says he had a "proud father moment".  How close do you have to be to have one of those?
From an interview on YT
"“So I actually came in and Madeleine was just at the top of the bed here where I’d left her lying, and the covers were folded down and she had her cuddle cat and blanky were just by her head, and it’s terrible because I, erm had one of those really proud father moments where I just thought, I just thought, you know – 'You’re absolutely beautiful and I love you. And I just paused for a minute, and then I just pulled the door closed again just to about there, and I felt incredibly proud standing there and having three beautiful children.

Well, that is, I think, the most ironic thing of the LOT that that momentary pause that I had at the door, that’s exactly what I felt like.” Thanks to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXtBWNCFt7U and http://l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun.com/Moments.html for the text.
From what Kate and Gerry say he definitely went into the kids bedroom.

[Robittybob1]

This has been dealt with before.

There is no independent verification the window was open before McCann went to the apartment.

Do you mean Kate McCann?  OK but is that important?  Are you saying she may have opened the window and raised the shutters herself.  That is possible but the point I'm making is that 2 other witnesses go into the room where there is more light that there should be.  From that we can predict that the window was opened and shutters were raised before Gerry's check.

[stephen25000]

Do you mean Kate McCann?  OK but is that important?  Are you saying she may have opened the window and raised the shutters herself.  That is possible but the point I'm making is that 2 other witnesses go into the room where there is more light that there should be.  From that we can predict that the window was opened and shutters were raised before Gerry's check.

Again, for the last time. There is no independent verification the window was open before McCann got there.

More light than there should be ????

Meaningless drivel.

[Robittybob1]

Again, for the last time. There is no independent verification the window was open before McCann got there.

More light than there should be ????

Meaningless drivel.

Gerry states 10/05/2007 "----- He is certain that, before leaving home the children's bedroom was totally dark, with the window closed, but he does not know it was locked, the external blinds closed but with some slats open, and the curtains also drawn closed. "  So that is the standard so was all the light coming from the lounge?
"Asked, he relates that during the night the artificial light coming in from the outside is very weak, because, without a light being on in the lounge or the kitchen, the visibility inside the bedroom is much reduced."

It is something that can be checked.

If there was "independent verification the window was open before McCann got there" I would suggest they were the burglars.

[Robittybob1]

Gerry states 10/05/2007 "---- He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered [was entering] the lounge, he noted that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought strange, having then put together the thought of MADELEINE having got up to go to sleep in his bedroom so as to avoid the noise produced [created] by her siblings. In this way he entered the children's bedroom and established visual contact with each of them, checking and is certain of this, that the three were sleeping deeply. He left the children's bedroom returning to place the door how he had already previously described, [then] going to the bathroom. Everything else was normal, the blinds, curtains and windows closed, very dark, there only being the light that came from the lounge."

So there was an assessment made at that time of Gerry's check the shutters were not up, but there was light coming into the bedroom from the lounge when the kid's bedroom door was fully open.

The two things Gerry did differently was to fully enter the room and to have the door wide open to allow light to flood the room.

That is what I was trying to determine.

[stephen25000]

Gerry states 10/05/2007 "----- He is certain that, before leaving home the children's bedroom was totally dark, with the window closed, but he does not know it was locked, the external blinds closed but with some slats open, and the curtains also drawn closed. "  So that is the standard so was all the light coming from the lounge?
"Asked, he relates that during the night the artificial light coming in from the outside is very weak, because, without a light being on in the lounge or the kitchen, the visibility inside the bedroom is much reduced."

It is something that can be checked.

If there was "independent verification the window was open before McCann got there" I would suggest they were the burglars.

There was no independent verification, and you know it, so will I leave you to your fantasies.


As should be aware by now, I don't believe the Mccanns version of events.

[Robittybob1]

There was no independent verification, and you know it, so will I leave you to your fantasies.


As should be aware by now, I don't believe the Mccanns version of events.

It was off topic.  I have asked for a separate thread discussing this issue of independent verification.  See you there if it gets approved.

Stub:

Stephen25000 posted http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7846.msg371029#msg371029

 "Again, for the last time. There is no independent verification the window was open before McCann got there.

More light than there should be ????

Meaningless drivel."

Is it reasonable to expect independent verification of every claim?  What sort of independent person would be around the back of the McCann's apartment between 9:00 and 10:00 PM at night?

If Matt or Russell said when they saw it at 9:30 the shutters were down what difference would that make? 
Either it would be claimed that they are not independent or that the shutters must have been open after their observation. 
There is no way to satisfy this objection unless there were two people doing the check together and even then would they be independent.  It is an impossible objection therefore totally unreasonable to expect anyone to deliver.
I think we can all question whether Kate is telling us the truth but if there is no proof to the contrary and she has made a statement it would be up to Stephen to prove she is lying otherwise  remain sceptical but don't expect someone else to prove it is true.

[Eleanor]

Any further posts containing insults will be removed in full.

[Alice Purjorick]

Just because we have seen a video showing the shutter being raised, doesn't mean that the sound effects are genuine in their loudness or quietness.  Levels of sound can easily be adjusted to agree with someones agenda, if you know what I mean.

The truth of the matter is that we dont just KNOW how noisy the shutter was.  And if it was initially manually raised from the outside then there was a glazed window and curtains to help deaden the sound

I didn't say anything about how noisy or otherwise the shutter operation was.
My views on the video clips showing the operation of the shutters, put up on here, are well recorded.