Was stranger abduction unlikely due to the checking regime?

[Alice Purjorick]

Goodness.
I have never heard of those stories and was referring to her possible kissing prowess , which I think is what the original Hot Lips was about.

Major Margaret Houlihan and Major Frank Burns having a snog when "the tent" was rigged up to the compound PA system. "Margaret you have hot lips". There after know as Major Hotlips.
See the book by Richard Hooker. See MASH goes to Maine. Almost as funny especially when the Rollers* move in.
* Holy not Bay City.

[Alfie]

The problem is that you are describing behaviour as a whole. You're ignoring the timeline element. Many parents have admitted to sedating their children on flights and long road trips, so sedating them so the parents can have a trouble-free night out isn't beyond the bounds of possibility. Neither does it make a parent into a 'monster'.

Sedation can, like any other choice, lead to unexpected consequences. Some children can have adverse reactions, even death. This could present parents with another choice. Medical attention, such as an autopsy, may reveal the sedation; it may even have caused or contributed to the death. Now something that wasn't a big deal has become a potential disaster. The parents could lose their jobs, their remaining children and the love and respect of family and friends. The choice now is own up or not. Owning up won't help the child, but could destroy the remaining family. Deciding not to own up has got to be considered, and if that becomes the decision it still doesn't make the parents into 'monsters'. In their eyes they have been forced to take a decision they don't want to take because the alternative is ruin.

Other unexpected consequences follow, including the Fund. The parents are now trapped by their previous choices and have to keep going because owning up has now become pretty much impossible. The consequences will be even worse than they expected earlier.

Taking the timeline into account shows how things could develop and lead to people making unpalatable decisions.
It isn't bizarre and it doesn't mean they are monsters. Just people making very difficult decisions under duress.

If

My point which I have already made (and which will have Slarti reaching for the Logical Fallacy klaxon again no doubt) is that the very last thing on the mind of a normal loving parent on discovering one of their children dead possibly as a result of a poor decision they (the parent) has made, is their career, social standing and liberty UNLESS they are quite pyschologically flawed or morally bereft in some way.  Covering up the death of a much loved child, which would involve physically disposing of its remains in some way is a monumental act of deceit and criminality far outweighing the initial action of supposedly sedating a child and leaving it unattended for 30 minutes.   Taking such a decision (and also agreeing to go a long with a spouse's actions) would indicate a callous disregard for the child and the family as a whole. 

PS: I take it from your attempt to excuse such extraordinary behaviour as merely "a difficult decision" that you could envisage yourself in such a scenario and considering a similar cover up?  Or do you put yourself on a higher moral plane than the McCanns?

[Benice]

The people suggesting they had to have 'serious personality disorders' to be involved in their daughter's disappearance seem to be those who support them. I have posted a scenario requiring no 'disorders' at all, simply very very difficult decisions.

As far as I am concerned there are NO difficult decisions for normal loving parents to make on discovering their beloved child is dead.    To decide to do anything other than call for an ambulance etc etc is proof in itself that those characteristics which exist in all psychopaths must have been present in the parents imo.

Only abnormal people would hesitate in those circumstances and instead decide to weigh up their options - as if they had come home and found their camera had been stolen - and had to decide whether or not to tell the ins. co they had left the doors unlocked.

This was their beloved daughter FGS, who they had waited years for and who they adored.   I can't believe there are people who can't understand the enormity of that - or the immediate massive effect that such a nightmare discovery would have on them - but who do believe that their dead daughter was now nothing more than a potential 'problem' to them -  which apparently left them with difficult decisions to make.  i.e.   Shall we call an ambulance or shall we dump the body?    What??

 IMO that scenario is not an option to any reasonable minded person anyway -  but especially to anyone knowing  just how loved and wanted this particular little girl was.    It is not humanly possible IMO for people to suddenly change from being normal parents one minute to being raging psychopaths the next.
AIMHO
   
   

[Alfie]

As far as I am concerned there are NO difficult decisions for normal loving parents to make on discovering their beloved child is dead.    To decide to do anything other than call for an ambulance etc etc is proof in itself that those characteristics which exist in all psychopaths must have been present in the parents imo.

Only abnormal people would hesitate in those circumstances and instead decide to weigh up their options - as if they had come home and found their camera had been stolen - and had to decide whether or not to tell the ins. co they had left the doors unlocked.

This was their beloved daughter FGS, who they had waited years for and who they adored.   I can't believe there are people who can't understand the enormity of that - or the immediate massive effect that such a nightmare discovery would have on them - but who do believe that their dead daughter was now nothing more than a potential 'problem' to them -  which apparently left them with difficult decisions to make.  i.e.   Shall we call an ambulance or shall we dump the body?    What??

 IMO that scenario is not an option to any reasonable minded person anyway -  but especially to anyone knowing  just how loved and wanted this particular little girl was.    It is not humanly possible IMO for people to suddenly change from being normal parents one minute to being raging psychopaths the next.
AIMHO
   
   

I think the fact that people can somehow empathise with the position the McCanns allegedly fonnd themselves in and understand and rationalise the decision to allegedly dump their own child's body says very much more about themselves than it does about the McCanns - quite shocking really.

[G-Unit]

I have proposed a scenario where people could possibly find themselves in a nightmare situation where they had to make a decision which would change their lives forever.

People seem to think my scenario is outside the realms of possibility. Why? Because they can't imagine that others may have different responses and thought processes than they think they would have.

When it is suggested that leaving children alone in an unlocked apartment is careless or neglectful, there's a rush to post the opinion that it's a matter of opinion and not everyone approaches parental responsibility in the same way.

Now is the time, perhaps, to realise that different people react in different ways all the time. Most people know what's right, but not everyone chooses to do what's right if the consequences for themselves will be catastrophic. 

[Alfie]

I have proposed a scenario where people could possibly find themselves in a nightmare situation where they had to make a decision which would change their lives forever.

People seem to think my scenario is outside the realms of possibility. Why? Because they can't imagine that others may have different responses and thought processes than they think they would have.

When it is suggested that leaving children alone in an unlocked apartment is careless or neglectful, there's a rush to post the opinion that it's a matter of opinion and not everyone approaches parental responsibility in the same way.

Now is the time, perhaps, to realise that different people react in different ways all the time. Most people know what's right, but not everyone chooses to do what's right if the consequences for themselves will be catastrophic.

WRONG.  I don't think your scenario is outside the realms of possibility.  I thinks it's quite possible for people with low or no moral principles and a callous and cruel disregard for their loved ones and a desire to profit and seek worldwide fame from their criminal actions to behave in such a manner.  The question is - are the McCanns those sort of people?  What evidence tends to suggest that they would be the sort of people to make such a morallly bereft decision as to cover up a child's death, toss the body into a hole or a trash can and make money out of it all to save their own skins?  You seem to have no problem with this idea, and given you think them capable of this, then surely it follows that they could also be capable of much worse - pre-meditated murder or manslaughter even, for example?

[Benice]

I have proposed a scenario where people could possibly find themselves in a nightmare situation where they had to make a decision which would change their lives forever.

People seem to think my scenario is outside the realms of possibility. Why? Because they can't imagine that others may have different responses and thought processes than they think they would have.

When it is suggested that leaving children alone in an unlocked apartment is careless or neglectful, there's a rush to post the opinion that it's a matter of opinion and not everyone approaches parental responsibility in the same way.

Now is the time, perhaps, to realise that different people react in different ways all the time. Most people know what's right, but not everyone chooses to do what's right if the consequences for themselves will be catastrophic.

You talk as if deciding to call an ambulance or to dump their own child's body is something which would present many people with a difficult decision to make. - depending on their circumstances - almost as if here was an equal no. of people on both sides. 

I do not know of a single person who on finding their child dead would even begin to consider disposing of their beloved child's body as an option - no matter what their circumstances were.     Would you consider doing it?  If not why not?

Therefore your comparison between people's different opinions re the Listening method of childcare doesn't wash because although thousands do find it unacceptable- there are also thousands who don't.   

[The Singularity]

Now is the time, perhaps, to realise that different people react in different ways all the time. Most people know what's right, but not everyone chooses to do what's right if the consequences for themselves will be catastrophic.

With the best will in the world, what you are asking of Madeleine's parents goes far beyond an emotional and rational response. Yes people do react differently in times of crises, however for someone to react to the extreme of covering up the death of their four year old daughter (nine days shy) and disposing of her body; that can in no way can be considered a rational thought or act. People who do think this way, think that way for a very good reason and normally display increasing character flaws.

[Alfie]

I'm baffled by some sceptics' desire to try and justify or excuse the unjustifiable actions they believe the McCanns are capable of.

[G-Unit]

WRONG.  I don't think your scenario is outside the realms of possibility.  I thinks it's quite possible for people with low or no moral principles and a callous and cruel disregard for their loved ones and a desire to profit and seek worldwide fame from their criminal actions to behave in such a manner.  The question is - are the McCanns those sort of people?  What evidence tends to suggest that they would be the sort of people to make such a morallly bereft decision as to cover up a child's death, toss the body into a hole or a trash can and make money out of it all to save their own skins?  You seem to have no problem with this idea, and given you think them capable of this, then surely it follows that they could also be capable of much worse - pre-meditated murder or manslaughter even, for example?

My scenario didn't include 'a callous and cruel disregard for their loved ones and a desire to profit and seek worldwide fame'. It portrayed a 'normal' couple doing something not uncommon so they could have a bit of 'me' time.

The result was a situation whereby they were in danger of losing everything they cared about. That was a huge punishment for doing something that many others do. A potential disaster of epic proportions.

Still, someone with 'moral principles' would, you argue, have held their hands up and accepted the consequences of their actions. Maybe, maybe not if they could see another way out.

[Alfie]

My scenario didn't include 'a callous and cruel disregard for their loved ones and a desire to profit and seek worldwide fame'. It portrayed a 'normal' couple doing something not uncommon so they could have a bit of 'me' time.

The result was a situation whereby they were in danger of losing everything they cared about. That was a huge punishment for doing something that many others do. A potential disaster of epic proportions.

Still, someone with 'moral principles' would, you argue, have held their hands up and accepted the consequences of their actions. Maybe, maybe not if they could see another way out.

I'm sorry but I have a real problem with this.  You don't seem to grasp that ANYONE with moral principles would have accepted the consequences of their actions and that taking the course of action you are suggesting the McCanns took would require a complete ABSENCE of moral principles.  It would require the parents to put their own self-preservation above the well-being of their children, their family and the law.  Looking for a way out of facing up to the responsibility of causing or facilitating your own child's death indicates a complete absence of decency or morality.  I'm amazed I need to point this out to you, but perhaps your moral code is different to mine. 

[Alfie]

My scenario didn't include 'a callous and cruel disregard for their loved ones and a desire to profit and seek worldwide fame'. It portrayed a 'normal' couple doing something not uncommon so they could have a bit of 'me' time.

The result was a situation whereby they were in danger of losing everything they cared about. That was a huge punishment for doing something that many others do. A potential disaster of epic proportions.

Still, someone with 'moral principles' would, you argue, have held their hands up and accepted the consequences of their actions. Maybe, maybe not if they could see another way out.

I'm loving the way you're now becoming an apologist for parents who sedate their children, normalizing it in fact.  Once again, shocked and amazed!

Can I point out that if sedating your child with some innocuous substance as piriton or calpol is legal and normal, why the need for a cover up in the first place?

[ShiningInLuz]

I'm loving the way you're now becoming an apologist for parents who sedate their children, normalizing it in fact.  Once again, shocked and amazed!

Can I point out that if sedating your child with some innocuous substance as piriton or calpol is legal and normal, why the need for a cover up in the first place?

Sentence two.  Are you trying to sink the McCanns?  The answer is blindingly obvious.

[Alfie]

Before I get accused of working against the McCanns by SIL can I point out the way this discussion has gone thus far:
G-Unit has posited that sedating your kids in order to enjoy a bit of "me" time is something that thousands of parents do and is therefore not morally reprehensible behaviour or the action of monsters.  Well, if true then whatever these "normal" non-morally reprehenisble parents are routinely and "normally"sedating their kids with is going to be something available over the counter and suitable for children. 

If however the suggestion is that something was used on the McCann children that was NOT available over the counter, and NOT suitable for giving to children then I'm afraid we have strayed from "normal, non-monstrous"parental behaviour into rather more sinister and dangerous territory.  Agreed?

[slartibartfast]

I'm loving the way you're now becoming an apologist for parents who sedate their children, normalizing it in fact.  Once again, shocked and amazed!

Can I point out that if sedating your child with some innocuous substance as piriton or calpol is legal and normal, why the need for a cover up in the first place?

Please point out which post G-Unit mentioned sedation in this thread?