Author Topic: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?  (Read 3983 times)

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Offline mrswah

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Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2017, 10:00:26 AM »
I am sure everyone who reads this thread already knows why I think Vincent Tabak is innocent, but just to "sum up"

Lack of forensic evidence found in VT's flat, in Jo's flat, and on VT's clothes. Of course, there might have been some, but if there had been, I'm sure the prosecution team would not have relied on low copy DNA.

The odd way in which VT suddenly decided to plead guilty, after being on remand for several weeks

The silence afterwards. The tabloids have been very quiet about how VT is faring in prison, whether Tanja and Greg have found new love interests, reports on what sort of bloke VT is, etc etc. All unedifying, I know, but I dont  expect this kind of silence from the tabloids. Do you???? No one has written a book on the case.
The odd business re the fire and rescue service, and the fact it was hushed up.
VT'S unbelievable story in court.
The prison service's failure to tell me where VT is being held. More on this when I get back from holiday, but they tell me they have made contact with the prison, and no response whatsoever. They are NOT telling me that anyone has mentioned my request to VT, or that he does not want to be in contact with me. Frankly, I doubt whether anyone  has even asked him!

I have been reading all your replies with interest, by the way!!! Oh, and I think Leonora 's time line is brilliant!

More at the weekend!

Offline AerialHunter

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2017, 06:30:05 PM »
Having spent more time reading round, some points have raised more questions than others. First, the observation that bail was not applied for, that decision had to lie with Tabak, not with his defence lawyer. Second, the less than favourable opening statement did nothing to point towards Tabak's presumed innocence. Third the strange plea of manslaughter, an admission of guilt, enough to keep you out of the realms of IDOM but enough to ensure you are the one sent down for the killing. Fourth, the blubbing phone call to the police, pointing the finger at Tabak, presumably from Morson who would be the only one with information on Tabak's movements. Why blub, most women would be apoplectic with rage if the thought their own boyfriend had just murdered the pretty young girl next door. Fifth, Morson elects to do a bunk and disappears off abroad supposedly to escape media attention, didn't hang round long did she? Last, Tabak is a big, really big, very powerful bloke, if he had dished out a beating to a girl like Yeates she would be virtually unrecognisable, but the 43 injuries were almost unnoticed initially. You do not get 43 injuries at the same time without something occurring, who did she get in a fight with?

Both Morson and Yeates kept cats, as territorial a beast as you will find, and prone to fighting over nothing. Cat lovers will side with their own as if they were children, defending the corner, quite literally.

Why did Tabak set himself up to take the rap? Who did he want to protect? Would the police and courts aggressively continue an investigation once they realised they had an admission and a defence team almost determined to earn a conviction for their client? From the moment events took this turn they were beached. Bright lad Tabak, way, way smarter than any copper, and unlikely to take advice from any two bit drongo solicitor. Moving prisons to Holland is a smart move if he can pull it off, far more lenient in their approach to punishment vs rehabilitation are the Dutch.

Just thinking out loud again!

AH
There is none so noble or in receipt of his fellows unbridled adulation as that police officer who willingly deceives to protect one of his own kind and, by virtue of birthright, extends that privilege to his family.

Offline Leonora

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2017, 08:23:15 PM »
...
Fourth, the blubbing phone call to the police, pointing the finger at Tabak, presumably from Morson who would be the only one with information on Tabak's movements. Why blub, most women would be apoplectic with rage if the thought their own boyfriend had just murdered the pretty young girl next door. Fifth, Morson elects to do a bunk and disappears off abroad supposedly to escape media attention, didn't hang round long did she?
...
Although not wishing to be a spoilsport, I would like to point out that both Tanja Morson's father and Vincent Tabak's family publicly insisted that Tanja was not the crying girl, very quickly after the reports appeared. As this anonymous caller wasn't mentioned at all by the numerous witnesses who subsequently testified in court to the events leading to the arrest of Vincent Tabak, I am confident that the crying girl was invented as part of a subterfuge intended to deceive the duty solicitor, whom you colourfully (but unfairly, I feel) characterise as a "two bit drongo solicitor".

Although her father was willing to talk to the press, Tanja avoided them almost completely. It was claimed that she had gone abroad, but we really cannot know for sure if that was true or not.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 08:29:06 PM by Leonora »

Offline mrswah

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Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2017, 08:36:03 PM »
Yes, VT  is a very big bloke with big hands. What a co incidence that he should be arrested after  people had pointed out that CJ couldn't have done it because he wasn't big or strong enough!!

Offline mrswah

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Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2017, 06:37:38 AM »
Not sure Tanja ever had a cat, did she?

She didn't go abroad until the trial, as far as we were told. Afterwards, she changed jobs, but she is still working in the area,,I believe.  Greg still lives and works  in Bristol.  They manage to avoid all media interest, as far as I can see. Odd!!!!!

By the way, Ariel Hunter, what is IDOM? ??

Offline AerialHunter

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2017, 03:34:35 PM »
Not sure about the cat either, but I meant for it to illustrate how discord between neighbours can be entirely disproportionate.

IDOM is the court's final riposte. It stands for "In Denial Of Murder". Essentially if you are convicted of a murder there is no prospect of leaving prison unless you confess you having carried out the act. Think of it as a ducking stool. Once you are accused and found guilty into the depths you go. Confess and you live. Nice hey!
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 04:48:52 PM by AerialHunter »
There is none so noble or in receipt of his fellows unbridled adulation as that police officer who willingly deceives to protect one of his own kind and, by virtue of birthright, extends that privilege to his family.

Offline Leonora

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2017, 10:23:28 AM »
... Essentially if you are convicted of a murder there is no prospect of leaving prison unless you confess you having carried out the act. Think of it as a ducking stool. Once you are accused and found guilty into the depths you go. Confess and you live. Nice hey!
That is very neat. I had never thought of that before. We are always hearing about the bad old days, when suspected witches were tied up and thrown into a pond. If she floated, it proved she was guilty, so she was pulled out and burnt. If she sank, it proved that she was not a witch, but she drowned anyway. "How barbaric!" we exclaim. Yet there is something of the "Sophie's Choice" about offering a long-term prisoner the alternatives of showing remorse and being let out on licence, or maintaing their innocence and staying inside. IMO the modern state should not behave like a capricious, vengeful Old Testament God.

Offline Leonora

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2017, 11:15:19 AM »
... many people on jury service have never been in a commanding position over other people's lives and use their only opportunity to display their sudden authority and go for a guilty verdict irrespective of the evidence. Often the people on juries with this attitude cause other jurors to withdraw ... they prevent the jury from making their findings public. Then they come up with lots of obstructive rules to prevent the wrongly convicted from helping themselves and obstruct decent people like us from trying to establish the real truth.
That is a very interesting observation on human nature. I wonder if you have served on a jury? I haven't, but I know two friends who have done so. Both of these considered that, on the whole, their jury functioned reasonably well.

On the other hand, it is obvious that, although most people do not wish to be seen as "controlling" or "manipulative" in their relations to other people, they invariably vote quite irresponsibly for politicians with these characteristics, whose job it is to prevent the rich from enjoying their wealth, or punish the unemployed for being lazy, or marginalise the wearers of turbans or burkhas.

I am reliably informed that a crown court is a terrifying place to be - and not just for the defendant! Don't you think that the average juror takes their awesome responsibilities much more seriously than the average voter? Despite my scepticism about this case, I sympathise with jurors over the predicament that the manipulative lawyers and the judge put them into. They deliberated for 12 hours, and I understand why they returned the verdict they did.

Nevertheless, I am interested that you would like juries to be allowed to defend their decisions in public. It sounds more transparent to me. But it wouldn't work in this case, unfortunately, unless a former juror just happened to come across this forum, as none of the TV documentaries nor even the Leveson Inquiry gave the public the merest hint that there has been a huge cover-up.

Offline Simple Simon

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Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2017, 12:58:24 PM »
That is a very interesting observation on human nature. I wonder if you have served on a jury? I haven't, but I know two friends who have done so. Both of these considered that, on the whole, their jury functioned reasonably well.

On the other hand, it is obvious that, although most people do not wish to be seen as "controlling" or "manipulative" in their relations to other people, they invariably vote quite irresponsibly for politicians with these characteristics, whose job it is to prevent the rich from enjoying their wealth, or punish the unemployed for being lazy, or marginalise the wearers of turbans or burkhas.

I am reliably informed that a crown court is a terrifying place to be - and not just for the defendant! Don't you think that the average juror takes their awesome responsibilities much more seriously than the average voter? Despite my scepticism about this case, I sympathise with jurors over the predicament that the manipulative lawyers and the judge put them into. They deliberated for 12 hours, and I understand why they returned the verdict they did.

Nevertheless, I am interested that you would like juries to be allowed to defend their decisions in public. It sounds more transparent to me. But it wouldn't work in this case, unfortunately, unless a former juror just happened to come across this forum, as none of the TV documentaries nor even the Leveson Inquiry gave the public the merest hint that there has been a huge cover-up.

Leonora.. Your post has inspired me to start a new thread,... just waiting for approval....
As the images unwind, like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind......

Offline John

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2017, 09:02:46 PM »
The main problem with The BAIL....  It was never applied for !!!!

Cook says he won't be applying for bail..... WHY????  No reason!!!

A foreigner on a potential murder charge will almost never get bail.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Leonora

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2017, 08:02:09 AM »
A foreigner on a potential murder charge will almost never get bail.
I didn't know that. I thought that equality before the law was the cornerstone of English law, going back to 1688.

Vincent Tabak was head-hunted by his employer, Buro Happold, because of his specialist expertise. He entered the UK of his own free will, unlike Christopher Jefferies, who was born in the UK and has British nationality. In that case, Vincent Tabak, and anyone else of good character who is head-hunted to the UK, or any other country, by Buro Happold or any other global concern, should insist on a clause guaranteeing them legal representation and public endorsement of good character, in the event of their being charged with unmotivated murder, rape, possession of illegal images or drugs, or inappropriate behaviour towards a child.

When intending to travel to Avon & Somerset, or any other part of the UK, or any foreign country, to take a job, enrol at an institution of higher education, visit friends or family, or just to admire the antiquities and scenery, it would be prudent to obtain a guarantee of safe passage from the police or the immigration authorities, to guard against incurring a fate similar to those of e.g. Christopher Jefferies, Vincent Tabak, Amanda Knox and Malthe Thomsen.

Offline AerialHunter

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2017, 10:38:28 AM »
A foreigner on a potential murder charge will almost never get bail.

John, You make a most valuable point here, I was not aware of this at all.

AH
There is none so noble or in receipt of his fellows unbridled adulation as that police officer who willingly deceives to protect one of his own kind and, by virtue of birthright, extends that privilege to his family.

Offline mrswah

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Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2017, 03:50:01 PM »
A foreigner on a potential murder charge will almost never get bail.


Presumably in case they abscond???

I can't imagine very many British people on a potential murder charge would get bail either----am I right or wrong???

Offline AerialHunter

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2017, 02:56:21 PM »
As an aside, most military personnel involved with frontline duties all undergo resistance to interrogation training, or R2I using the lingo. The more advanced training uses interview / interrogation techniques that almost everyone that has been through it all says it convinces you that the situation they put you in becomes real, and more importantly you start to remember things that never happened and then start to admit to them. Quite clever. Other cases have involved specialist interviewers which people have reported that they could make you believe anything. Then they teach you how to deal with this psycho stuff and develop individual coping mechanisms tailored to each person. These boys (and girls) are really good at this, they know how to create false memories and get you to talk about them. Few subjects find themselves able to resist totally even though they are prepared to undertake the training and are expecting all of this AND they are hardcore military blokes, most with years of experience and have done the early R2I courses.

It is worth bearing in mind Ian Huntley, who has never admitted to murder, but went through the same processes as Tabak and was also given drugs to help him remember!!

I would be interested to know if the same teams were brought in to work on Tabak because somewhere, someone has mentioned that the parochial Somerset & Avon Constabulary went to the wider resources available to them. Was that the psycho team???

Just a thought!!

AH
There is none so noble or in receipt of his fellows unbridled adulation as that police officer who willingly deceives to protect one of his own kind and, by virtue of birthright, extends that privilege to his family.

Offline Leonora

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2017, 04:57:07 PM »
As an aside, most military personnel involved with frontline duties all undergo resistance to interrogation training, or R2I using the lingo...
I would be interested to know if the same teams were brought in to work on Tabak because somewhere, someone has mentioned that the parochial Somerset & Avon Constabulary went to the wider resources available to them. Was that the psycho team???
...
Nice try AH! I am certainly open to suggestions of false memory syndrome in this case. However, it doesn't explain the anomalous behaviour of William Clegg QC, who has successfully defended soldiers on trial in Northern Ireland and Ruandan and Jugoslavian clients accused of war crimes. If Vincent Tabak had been subjected to these kinds of techniques, Mr Clegg's CV would have made him one of the best lawyers to defend him. Yet he followed what must have been the worst defence strategy of his career - and his client went along with it. Why?