Author Topic: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?  (Read 3456 times)

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Offline AerialHunter

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2017, 05:25:58 PM »
Nice try AH! I am certainly open to suggestions of false memory syndrome in this case. However, it doesn't explain the anomalous behaviour of William Clegg QC, who has successfully defended soldiers on trial in Northern Ireland and Ruandan and Jugoslavian clients accused of war crimes. If Vincent Tabak had been subjected to these kinds of techniques, Mr Clegg's CV would have made him one of the best lawyers to defend him. Yet he followed what must have been the worst defence strategy of his career - and his client went along with it. Why?

That is a very good point, and I can't figure out why that pea brained, useless QC ever came out with such a mind numbingly stupid statement such as that. I am completely with you on this, and my investigation is quite weakened by your argument, so much so that we've put things on hold whilst we look at something unrelated.

UNLESS, that is, Tabak had told him the real truth and instructed him to make it look like he was the guilty party instead, in which case Clegg had no choice but to act within his clients wishes. That suggests either Tabak was convinced he had carried out the attack and wanted to see if he could get away with a manslaughter charge by admitting to it early OR Tabak was the one driving the chariot and ordering Clegg to make sure the identity of the real perpetrator never came anywhere near the surface. Somebody murdered Yeates, and that person was able to overpower her but didn't have the strength to do any real damage, 43 almost unnoticeable injuries weren't inflicted by an adult male on a girl that size and weight and that number takes time. I think a fight broke out with Yeates and someone who had lost it after a few too many drinks, that person was bigger than Yeates and stronger and probably had her pinned down by getting on top of her. What was the argument over? Pizza for two? Very cosy?
There is none so noble or in receipt of his fellows unbridled adulation as that police officer who willingly deceives to protect one of his own kind and, by virtue of birthright, extends that privilege to his family.

Offline Leonora

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2017, 09:13:58 PM »
... Somebody murdered Yeates, and that person was able to overpower her but didn't have the strength to do any real damage, 43 almost unnoticeable injuries weren't inflicted by an adult male on a girl that size and weight and that number takes time. I think a fight broke out with Yeates and someone who had lost it after a few too many drinks, that person was bigger than Yeates and stronger and probably had her pinned down by getting on top of her. What was the argument over? Pizza for two? Very cosy?
This scenario is personal. You are now suggesting that she may have been murdered because she was Joanna, rather than because she was an attractive petite blonde. By linking her death to the unsolved killings of a long succession of other young women, your previous posts have lined up with the arguments put to the jury at the trial of Vincent Tabak, who was represented as a predator whose victim just happened to come on to his radar.

Some of the 43 injuries could have been inflicted during the recovery of her body, but the evidence of a fight is almost inescapable. The absence of sexual assault and the amount of damage inflicted before death opens up the possiblity that her assailant could have been a woman - perhaps a hand-ball player with strong hands. Whoever heard of a female serial killer? Whoever killed for a pizza?

DCI Phil Jones always ruled out a crime of passion, but he was obviously seriously lacking in imagination. If he had studied the CCTV clips of her from the three shops, he would have been struck by Joanna's feminine self-confidence. This comes over far better in the videos than in the rather anodyne official photos of her. Joanna was left-handed (unless the Tesco CCTV is back-to-front) - further evidence that she could twist a man round her little finger.

Offline AerialHunter

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2017, 09:43:55 PM »
This scenario is personal. You are now suggesting that she may have been murdered because she was Joanna, rather than because she was an attractive petite blonde. By linking her death to the unsolved killings of a long succession of other young women, your previous posts have lined up with the arguments put to the jury at the trial of Vincent Tabak, who was represented as a predator whose victim just happened to come on to his radar.

Some of the 43 injuries could have been inflicted during the recovery of her body, but the evidence of a fight is almost inescapable. The absence of sexual assault and the amount of damage inflicted before death opens up the possiblity that her assailant could have been a woman - perhaps a hand-ball player with strong hands. Whoever heard of a female serial killer? Whoever killed for a pizza?

DCI Phil Jones always ruled out a crime of passion, but he was obviously seriously lacking in imagination. If he had studied the CCTV clips of her from the three shops, he would have been struck by Joanna's feminine self-confidence. This comes over far better in the videos than in the rather anodyne official photos of her. Joanna was left-handed (unless the Tesco CCTV is back-to-front) - further evidence that she could twist a man round her little finger.

I don't want to become transfixed on one line of investigation, narrow vision is the key element of policing failure. Visting options then rejecting them in the light of reasoned argument got us where we are today, I'm not afraid of being told I'm wrong (again). Bouncing ideas around sometimes just fills in a gap. There is a very detailed website on this case which has lots of ideas and points out many suspect areas in the investigation, but is quite in error at different points. It does, however act as a resource for people like us to read and reassess, which at this early stage (for us) gives something to work with. None of us want to detract from the efforts gone in here, but we are following another inquiry line and we don't want to appear unreasonable, we just hope to apply the same logic processes we used elsewhere. I know my comments look too personal but if you try to account for all of the oddities it seems to me like Tabak took the rap, and was trying to protect someone. Who exactly is open to speculation but you can rule out a bloke if the injuries to Yeates are anything to go by.

AH
There is none so noble or in receipt of his fellows unbridled adulation as that police officer who willingly deceives to protect one of his own kind and, by virtue of birthright, extends that privilege to his family.

Offline Nine

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2017, 08:42:18 AM »
I don't want to become transfixed on one line of investigation, narrow vision is the key element of policing failure. Visting options then rejecting them in the light of reasoned argument got us where we are today, I'm not afraid of being told I'm wrong (again). Bouncing ideas around sometimes just fills in a gap. There is a very detailed website on this case which has lots of ideas and points out many suspect areas in the investigation, but is quite in error at different points. It does, however act as a resource for people like us to read and reassess, which at this early stage (for us) gives something to work with. None of us want to detract from the efforts gone in here, but we are following another inquiry line and we don't want to appear unreasonable, we just hope to apply the same logic processes we used elsewhere. I know my comments look too personal but if you try to account for all of the oddities it seems to me like Tabak took the rap, and was trying to protect someone. Who exactly is open to speculation but you can rule out a bloke if the injuries to Yeates are anything to go by.

AH

Could you point us in the way of this very detailed website on the case ..AH ??

Offline Leonora

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2017, 09:14:46 AM »
I don't want to become transfixed on one line of investigation, narrow vision is the key element of policing failure. Visting options then rejecting them in the light of reasoned argument got us where we are today, I'm not afraid of being told I'm wrong (again). Bouncing ideas around sometimes just fills in a gap...
My post wasn't intended as negative but it may have come out that way. When I used the word "personal", I meant "personal to Joanna Yeates". I was trying to distinguish between the kind of scenario where the choice of victim is the result of who they are and what they may or may not have done, and the kind of (sociopath) scenario where the choice of victim is determined by WHAT they are, e.g., petite blonde. I am constantly being surprised by suggestions for possible lines of inquiry that had never occurred to me before.

Offline AerialHunter

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2017, 11:08:31 PM »
My post wasn't intended as negative but it may have come out that way. When I used the word "personal", I meant "personal to Joanna Yeates". I was trying to distinguish between the kind of scenario where the choice of victim is the result of who they are and what they may or may not have done, and the kind of (sociopath) scenario where the choice of victim is determined by WHAT they are, e.g., petite blonde. I am constantly being surprised by suggestions for possible lines of inquiry that had never occurred to me before.

Ok no worries.  We have a bunch of possible lines to look at now. As is quite normal for us we just end up closing off certain lines of inquiry and then have a look at what's left. If our suspect was responsible then you have to think on another level. Yeates would have been an irrelevance, a simple means to an end, the target was associated with her and the intention was to get the police to target them. The first thing we are going to look at is CJ as he is the only real constant. Might take some time as we only have so much time to spend and we are already quite thinly spread.
There is none so noble or in receipt of his fellows unbridled adulation as that police officer who willingly deceives to protect one of his own kind and, by virtue of birthright, extends that privilege to his family.

Offline Nine

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2017, 11:54:52 PM »
Ok no worries.  We have a bunch of possible lines to look at now. As is quite normal for us we just end up closing off certain lines of inquiry and then have a look at what's left. If our suspect was responsible then you have to think on another level. Yeates would have been an irrelevance, a simple means to an end, the target was associated with her and the intention was to get the police to target them. The first thing we are going to look at is CJ as he is the only real constant. Might take some time as we only have so much time to spend and we are already quite thinly spread.

If I entertain what your suggesting.... why do you think someone was targeting someone else??

Why would Joanna Yeates have got in the way?? or been a target?? Tanja's just as likely to have been a target as she had lived there longer...

Is it the Flat... being number 1... and it's history??

Or is it simply like I have always believed someone close to Joanna yeates who was either annoyed with her or it was an accident??



Offline AerialHunter

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2017, 05:23:14 PM »
If I entertain what your suggesting.... why do you think someone was targeting someone else??

Why would Joanna Yeates have got in the way?? or been a target?? Tanja's just as likely to have been a target as she had lived there longer...

Is it the Flat... being number 1... and it's history??

Or is it simply like I have always believed someone close to Joanna yeates who was either annoyed with her or it was an accident??

What we believe is that out suspect has attacked a large number of women and has attempted to use planted evidence to incriminate his true target. He has been observed on a number of occasions in the near vicinity of his intended target(s) and is unlikely to desist from further attacks in the future.

Our train of thought at this moment is a sort of multi level arrangement, the top level being ideas (that's all they are at the moment) that might provoke a retaliatory strike. The next level down is really the chance of a random attack just because he's seen Yeates walking alone in the dark, his most popular mode of attack.

For what it's worth we are looking to find out if CJ fired our suspects wife from her job as an English teacher when she fell pregnant, a long shot in the dark but something we wish to eliminate. If we are right then it gets flagged up as a potential, not a definite. We think our suspect is very much one to bear a grudge forever and a day and will strike years later. Once having stalked his prey for a while and collected sufficient material to plant in areas he knows the police will look then he strikes. He is not really an opportunist but a detailed planner. His escape route is always his first priority after his choice of target. He then takes out a vulnerable lone female and either rapes and tortures them before releasing them in a very controlled fashion or smashes both sides of their skulls with a blunt instrument and uses either fire or running water (rivers etc) to help cover his tracks. He always operates in areas he knows well, Clifton being one of them.

I could go on but there is little point at this stage. We have six specific lines of inquiry to follow up on, that often throws up something we hadn't even considered so it tends to mushroom before we review and eliminate.We are not sure why the police are avoiding speaking to us directly, probably to avoid giving us any form of recognition or just to cover their own irrevocable mistakes. Either way we will come up with something or nothing.

As it happens, one of our number has suggested that if Yeates had returned home and encountered Tabak she might have ended up in his flat leaving evidence of her presence unintentionally. After Morson returned, she, being a she, wasn't going to miss this and may have confronted Yeates at a later point, leading to the untimely demise of the relatively diminutive Yeates. That goes some way to explaining the half drunk bottle of cider and the missing pizza and the fact that all Yeates gear was back in her flat. Was Tabak prepared to cover up an attack perpetrated by Morson?? Who's to know??

We hadn't considered the thought that there may be a historic attachment to the flats in Canynge Road, but we are already thwarted in our attempts to check as the central library in Bristol (uniquely) restrict access to the register of electors on their shelves. If we can fund a court order to force them to grant us access then we can move forward on that one.

All for now.

AH
There is none so noble or in receipt of his fellows unbridled adulation as that police officer who willingly deceives to protect one of his own kind and, by virtue of birthright, extends that privilege to his family.

Offline Leonora

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2017, 12:05:35 PM »
What we believe is that out suspect has attacked a large number of women and has attempted to use planted evidence to incriminate his true target. He has been observed on a number of occasions in the near vicinity of his intended target(s) and is unlikely to desist from further attacks in the future.

Our train of thought at this moment is a sort of multi level arrangement, the top level being ideas (that's all they are at the moment) that might provoke a retaliatory strike. The next level down is really the chance of a random attack just because he's seen Yeates walking alone in the dark, his most popular mode of attack.

For what it's worth we are looking to find out if CJ fired our suspects wife from her job as an English teacher when she fell pregnant, a long shot in the dark but something we wish to eliminate...
Vincent Tabak didn't rape Joanna Yeates, and we have always been told that he didn't know her either. Until recently, I had always believed that she was assailed by someone who knew her very well, and who was being shielded by the police.

However, the recovery of her body from Longwood Lane tips the balance of probability towards the likelihood of her having been the victim of a serial killer. The fire & rescue officer wearing a harness (just revealed by "Index") and all the other pumping paraphernalia suggests that the perpetrator himself may have tipped the police off about where to find her, since it is hard to go on believing their official line that her body was discovered by dog walkers, dumped beside the Lane itself.

Offline Nine

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2017, 03:49:35 PM »
Vincent Tabak didn't rape Joanna Yeates, and we have always been told that he didn't know her either. Until recently, I had always believed that she was assailed by someone who knew her very well, and who was being shielded by the police.

However, the recovery of her body from Longwood Lane tips the balance of probability towards the likelihood of her having been the victim of a serial killer. The fire & rescue officer wearing a harness (just revealed by "NINE") and all the other pumping paraphernalia suggests that the perpetrator himself may have tipped the police off about where to find her, since it is hard to go on believing their official line that her body was discovered by dog walkers, dumped beside the Lane itself.

I've never been convinced of the location... It's too visible...   I still don't understand why her parents thought she had been abducted...

If someone is going to be Abducted the perterator is hardly likely to take a Pizza and make sure the door is locked behind them.....

But her mum believed this... so much so she was banging on cars up and down the road!!!!

And on saying that her mum would have been aware the door was locked and the pizza was missing at this time... (IMO)

Offline mrswah

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Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2017, 04:14:35 PM »
Vincent Tabak didn't rape Joanna Yeates, and we have always been told that he didn't know her either. Until recently, I had always believed that she was assailed by someone who knew her very well, and who was being shielded by the police.

However, the recovery of her body from Longwood Lane tips the balance of probability towards the likelihood of her having been the victim of a serial killer. The fire & rescue officer wearing a harness (just revealed by "Index") and all the other pumping paraphernalia suggests that the perpetrator himself may have tipped the police off about where to find her, since it is hard to go on believing their official line that her body was discovered by dog walkers, dumped beside the Lane itself.

Nobody is very clear about where Joanna's body was found, and nobody appears to know why all that fire and rescue equipment was needed. However, I am inclined to believe the dog walkers must have discovered the body, as no ordinary member of the public is going to agree to lie in court.

Offline Leonora

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2017, 04:48:36 PM »
Nobody is very clear about where Joanna's body was found, and nobody appears to know why all that fire and rescue equipment was needed. However, I am inclined to believe the dog walkers must have discovered the body, as no ordinary member of the public is going to agree to lie in court.
Neither of the dog walkers testified in person. A statement by Daniel Birch, describing how they found Joanna Yeates's body, was read out in court. Nor were the Birches or even their chocolate labrador dog Roxy ever seen, let alone interviewed/patted, by any of the press. Nor was anything in Mr Birch's imprecise statement incompatible with their having been groomed by the police to walk Roxy along a particular route in the vicinity of Longwood Lane which took them past a body in a position that was totally invisible to the uninitiated - a position that needed a man with a climbing harness to get within recovery distance.

I am not saying that the dog walker Daniel Birch lied, even in his statement. Nor am I saying that he is the innocent dog-owning witness that we have been told. He may well have a whole string of unpaid parking fines on his conscience, which the police offered to overlook in return for this little favour. Who is to say whether he or his wife isn't a prison officer? Do you know for certain that he isn't Detective Superintendant Daniel Birch? - or Customs & Excise Officer Daniel Birch, handler of Bristol Airport's champion sniffer dog Roxy?

Offline Nine

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2017, 05:36:41 PM »
Neither of the dog walkers testified in person. A statement by Daniel Birch, describing how they found Joanna Yeates's body, was read out in court. Nor were the Birches or even their chocolate labrador dog Roxy ever seen, let alone interviewed/patted, by any of the press. Nor was anything in Mr Birch's imprecise statement incompatible with their having been groomed by the police to walk Roxy along a particular route in the vicinity of Longwood Lane which took them past a body in a position that was totally invisible to the uninitiated - a position that needed a man with a climbing harness to get within recovery distance.

I am not saying that the dog walker Daniel Birch lied, even in his statement. Nor am I saying that he is the innocent dog-owning witness that we have been told. He may well have a whole string of unpaid parking fines on his conscience, which the police offered to overlook in return for this little favour. Who is to say whether he or his wife isn't a prison officer? Do you know for certain that he isn't Detective Superintendant Daniel Birch? - or Customs & Excise Officer Daniel Birch, handler of Bristol Airport's champion sniffer dog Roxy?

It sends me a bit sideways this dog business leonora.... I remember the original reports that they were walking their dogs.... Plural... So why did it end up being just one dog!!!

Quote
Joanna Yeates's snow-covered body was found on Christmas morning by a couple walking their dogs in Longwood Lane in Failand, North Somerset.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jan/18/joanna-yeates-find-killer

And why would they not appear in court????

The people who "Witnessed"...  the location her body was in should have been in court... Not send the court an "Excuse Me Sir Letter "!!!....

 


Offline Leonora

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2017, 07:15:53 PM »
It sends me a bit sideways this dog business leonora.... I remember the original reports that they were walking their dogs.... Plural... So why did it end up being just one dog!!!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jan/18/joanna-yeates-find-killer

And why would they not appear in court????

The people who "Witnessed"...  the location her body was in should have been in court... Not send the court an "Excuse Me Sir Letter "!!!....
Chief Superintendant Jon Stratford gave a TV interview from Longwood Lane before the pathologist and the fire brigade had arrived. He spoke the word "dogs", probably because no one had told him that the Birches only had one dog, but he knew there were two dog walkers so he may have been playing safe. I don't think you should hold it against him, nor blame some of the subsequent reports for following his lead.

Even if the Birches had appeared in court, it could hardly have helped the jury decide whether the crime was manslaughter or murder, could it? They decided that on the basis of the 43 injuries plus the signs of a struggle that Vincent couldn't account for. Not to mention Nigel Lickley QC describing Vincent Tabak as if he were Saddam Hussein and addressing him as if he admitted to fatally gassing a whole lot of women and children by accident.

Most of the witnesses who appeared in court were experts who were paid a fee or a salary. Only a small proportion of the private persons whose testimony was heard appeared in person. I imagine that the press would very much like to have photos of the Birches and Roxy, and that is why they were never called to appear in court in person. If they had done, Mr Clegg would have felt obliged to cross-examine them, and then the cat would have been out of the bag, wouldn't you think?

Offline Nine

Re: Why do some think Vincent Tabak innocent?
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2017, 07:36:00 PM »
Chief Superintendant Jon Stratford gave a TV interview from Longwood Lane before the pathologist and the fire brigade had arrived. He spoke the word "dogs", probably because no one had told him that the Birches only had one dog, but he knew there were two dog walkers so he may have been playing safe. I don't think you should hold it against him, nor blame some of the subsequent reports for following his lead.

Even if the Birches had appeared in court, it could hardly have helped the jury decide whether the crime was manslaughter or murder, could it? They decided that on the basis of the 43 injuries plus the signs of a struggle that Vincent couldn't account for. Not to mention Nigel Lickley QC describing Vincent Tabak as if he were Saddam Hussein and addressing him as if he admitted to fatally gassing a whole lot of women and children by accident.

Most of the witnesses who appeared in court were experts who were paid a fee or a salary. Only a small proportion of the private persons whose testimony was heard appeared in person. I imagine that the press would very much like to have photos of the Birches and Roxy, and that is why they were never called to appear in court in person. If they had done, Mr Clegg would have felt obliged to cross-examine them, and then the cat would have been out of the bag, wouldn't you think?


Did the Birch's drive to Longwood Lane ??? I believe they lived in the BS7 or BS6 postcode area ....