Scene Of Crime Reconstruction

[APRIL]

Wouldn't ammonia leave burn marks on the skin around her mouth and nose and be detectable by police or Vanezis?

Methane is a gas, disperses instantly and needs the guile of a Crippen to administer.

Unless chloroform was readily available in '85, I don't think he would have the nous to make it from household bleach and nail-varnish remover (acetone), and we didn't have the luxury of YouTube then to demonstrate how either.

Not necessarily, Myster. If it's inhaled in a closed environment it will be enough to certainly knock one off balance. I've had my own experience with industrial strength ammonia!!!! and rescued a youngster who was using carbon tet in a closed bathroom having been warned of the dangers. She actually passed out. Both of these substances COULD have been used on the farm.

[Holly Goodhead]

For the first two mouth/jaw shots, Nevill was lying prone in bed with head raised and facing the shooter who was obviously in a higher position at the foot end. No blood on the bed clothes as it was too early to start flowing enough, when he realised what was happening and had to get up sharpish.

For the other two shots, if he was sat on the bed about to get out, the first bullet hitting his left elbow which caused the arm to jump upwards leaving the shoulder in position for an almost vertical second shot (Samson's patented arm-jerk reflex theory). Or he might have been holding his left hand up to staunch the mouth wounds which would bring his arm up to a similar position.

Wouldn't it just be easier to go with puglove's theory that NB was outside the bedroom before JB entered?  Most other guilters: Clive (I think), MikeG, Scipio and yourself have suggested NB was in various positions to account for the trajectories and seem happy to dismiss the lack of blood and location of casings doesn't fit with NB shot in the bedroom.  NB shot on the landing and main stairs, or even all 4 on the main stairs, does also have a guilty scenario:

Landing and Main Stairs

JB enters twins room and shoots them at least once.
NB hears a noise and leaves the master bedroom to investigate he gets as far as the bottom of the main stairs
Meanwhile JB enters the master bedroom via box room and upon finding NB missing shoots June x 5
NB runs back towards the master bedrom and is situated on the landing where he sustains the facial shots then turns and sustains the shoulder and elbow/chest graze on the main stairs

Main Stairs

JB enters twins room and shoots them at least once.
NB hears a noise and leaves the master bedroom to investigate he gets as far as the bottom of the main stairs
Meanwhile JB enters the master bedroom via box room and upon finding NB missing shoots June x 5
NB runs back towards the master bedroom and is situated at the top of the main stairs where he sustains the facial shots then turns and sustains the shoulder and elbow/chest graze on the main stairs

It may not sound as plausible as SC but it is possible.  Interestingly Dr Vanezis thought the twins may have been shot first (post #2).  He was the only expert to enter WHF so had some knowledge of the layout.  My guess he has had time to think about the trajectories and lack of NB's blood in the bedroom. 

[Myster]

Wouldn't it just be easier to go with puglove's theory that NB was outside the bedroom before JB entered?  Most other guilters: Clive (I think), MikeG, Scipio and yourself have suggested NB was in various positions to account for the trajectories and seem happy to dismiss the lack of blood and location of casings doesn't fit with NB shot in the bedroom.  NB shot on the landing and main stairs, or even all 4 on the main stairs, does also have a guilty scenario:

Landing and Main Stairs

JB enters twins room and shoots them at least once.
NB hears a noise and leaves the master bedroom to investigate he gets as far as the bottom of the main stairs
Meanwhile JB enters the master bedroom via box room and upon finding NB missing shoots June x 5
NB runs back towards the master bedrom and is situated on the landing where he sustains the facial shots then turns and sustains the shoulder and elbow/chest graze on the main stairs

Main Stairs

JB enters twins room and shoots them at least once.
NB hears a noise and leaves the master bedroom to investigate he gets as far as the bottom of the main stairs
Meanwhile JB enters the master bedroom via box room and upon finding NB missing shoots June x 5
NB runs back towards the master bedroom and is situated at the top of the main stairs where he sustains the facial shots then turns and sustains the shoulder and elbow/chest graze on the main stairs

It may not sound as plausible as SC but it is possible.  Interestingly Dr Vanezis thought the twins may have been shot first (post #2).  He was the only expert to enter WHF so had some knowledge of the layout.  My guess he has had time to think about the trajectories and lack of NB's blood in the bedroom.

So Nevill can't have phoned anyone, because he didn't know if it was Sheila or an intruder who had hold of a weapon and he only saw his son, the perp, when it was too late and wounded.

Congrats... when are we going to celebrate you seeing the light!

[puglove]

Wouldn't it just be easier to go with puglove's theory that NB was outside the bedroom before JB entered?  Most other guilters: Clive (I think), MikeG, Scipio and yourself have suggested NB was in various positions to account for the trajectories and seem happy to dismiss the lack of blood and location of casings doesn't fit with NB shot in the bedroom.  NB shot on the landing and main stairs, or even all 4 on the main stairs, does also have a guilty scenario:

Landing and Main Stairs

JB enters twins room and shoots them at least once.
NB hears a noise and leaves the master bedroom to investigate he gets as far as the bottom of the main stairs
Meanwhile JB enters the master bedroom via box room and upon finding NB missing shoots June x 5
NB runs back towards the master bedrom and is situated on the landing where he sustains the facial shots then turns and sustains the shoulder and elbow/chest graze on the main stairs

Main Stairs

JB enters twins room and shoots them at least once.
NB hears a noise and leaves the master bedroom to investigate he gets as far as the bottom of the main stairs
Meanwhile JB enters the master bedroom via box room and upon finding NB missing shoots June x 5
NB runs back towards the master bedroom and is situated at the top of the main stairs where he sustains the facial shots then turns and sustains the shoulder and elbow/chest graze on the main stairs

It may not sound as plausible as SC but it is possible.  Interestingly Dr Vanezis thought the twins may have been shot first (post #2).  He was the only expert to enter WHF so had some knowledge of the layout.  My guess he has had time to think about the trajectories and lack of NB's blood in the bedroom.

Well, you got there in the end, Holl. I always had complete faith that you would!!   


I think I just heard clappedout's poor old heart break.   

[Holly Goodhead]

So Nevill can't have phoned anyone, because he didn't know if it was Sheila or an intruder who had hold of a weapon and he only saw his son, the perp, when it was too late and wounded.

Congrats... when are we going to celebrate you seeing the light!

Obviously the guilty JB scenarios I've outlined above don't require a tel call.

The innocent JB scenario, with NB and SC downstairs, allows for a tel call. 

If experts reconstruct a soc based on NB and SC downstairs the only way to defend is as puglove and I have suggested ie NB already out of the bedroom.  And there was me thinking guys had better spacial awareness skills  &%+((£ 

[Holly Goodhead]

Well, you got there in the end, Holl. I always had complete faith that you would!!   


I think I just heard clappedout's poor old heart break.   

Lol I'm just being realistic!  NB wasn't shot in bedroom as per the physical evidence but it doesn't make JB innocent.   

[puglove]

Lol I'm just being realistic!  NB wasn't shot in bedroom as per the physical evidence but it doesn't make JB innocent.

I know. I get it, I really do, but it's like "susan" on blue, saying that she keeps an open mind. So completely open that the wind blows through.

Anyhoo. At the risk of sounding patronising, and I'm sorry if I do, we will NEVER know who was where, in what position they were in, and in what sequence the killings were executed. What I do struggle with is...a) Nevill phoning Bamber, and....b) Sheila shooting herself twice. For forensic reasons that I have banged on about at length. She had no blood in her lungs or stomach. Sadly, the children did.

[puglove]

I know. I get it, I really do, but it's like "susan" on blue, saying that she keeps an open mind. So completely open that the wind blows through.

Anyhoo. At the risk of sounding patronising, and I'm sorry if I do, we will NEVER know who was where, in what position they were in, and in what sequence the killings were executed. What I do struggle with is...a) Nevill phoning Bamber, and....b) Sheila shooting herself twice. For forensic reasons that I have banged on about at length. She had no blood in her lungs or stomach. Sadly, the children did.

And how come Roch is suddenly some sort of Bamber virgin? He was a mod, 4 years ago.

[Samson]

For the first two mouth/jaw shots, Nevill was lying prone in bed with head raised and facing the shooter who was obviously in a higher position at the foot end. No blood on the bed clothes as it was too early to start flowing enough, when he realised what was happening and had to get up sharpish.

For the other two shots, if he was sat on the bed about to get out, the first bullet hitting his left elbow which caused the arm to jump upwards leaving the shoulder in position for an almost vertical second shot (Samson's patented arm-jerk reflex theory). Or he might have been holding his left hand up to staunch the mouth wounds which would bring his arm up to a similar position.

Remarkably sharp shooting under pressure.
Why shoot June first?
A much simpler theory is Sheila standing ready as he comes round the landing.

[John]

Lol I'm just being realistic!  NB wasn't shot in bedroom as per the physical evidence but it doesn't make JB innocent.

Am I missing something in your argument Holly?  How on earth could NB not have been shot in the bedroom when several casings associated with his shooting were clearly found there?

Even if the shooter stood in the bedroom and shot out the door the casings would have fallen on the opposite side of the room to where they were found.

The only possible position of the shooter had to be just inside the bedroom facing into the room, the same position from where June was also shot.

[Holly Goodhead]

I know. I get it, I really do, but it's like "susan" on blue, saying that she keeps an open mind. So completely open that the wind blows through.

Anyhoo. At the risk of sounding patronising, and I'm sorry if I do, we will NEVER know who was where, in what position they were in, and in what sequence the killings were executed. What I do struggle with is...a) Nevill phoning Bamber, and....b) Sheila shooting herself twice. For forensic reasons that I have banged on about at length. She had no blood in her lungs or stomach. Sadly, the children did.

I made contact with Craig Fries and Judy Melinek:

http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(17)30002-6/references

They seem to think a reconstruction is possible.  I guess a cynic would add "of course... $$  £4%4%"  But I don't see why not.  All the evidence is still available:

Physical layout of WHF
Autopsy photos and reports detailing victims' wounds and anatomy
Soc photos for casings
Image of rifle and silencer

It would surely be possible to map this out using digital technology.  But it is likely to be more complicated and costly than another test which has the potential to destroy the silencer evidence.  And as I said a reconstruction showing NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing and main stairs, or main stairs only, doesn't make JB innocent or overcome the silencer evidence. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Am I missing something in your argument Holly?  How on earth could NB not have been shot in the bedroom when several casings associated with his shooting were clearly found there?

Even if the shooter stood in the bedroom and shot out the door the casings would have fallen on the opposite side of the room to where they were found.

The only possible position of the shooter had to be just inside the bedroom facing into the room, the same position from where June was also shot.

According to Ed Lawson's cross-examination of Malcolm Fletcher June sustained a total of 8 gsw's.  1 gsw didn't penetrate her skin and caused a bruise only which resulted in bullet DRH/5.  Had exhibits not been destroyed then it may well have been possible to check this bullet for June's DNA.  8 casings were found either on June's side of the bed or on the floor June's side.  The other four casings found upstairs and relevant to June/NB: DRH/3, 4, 13 and 14 were found just inside the door, on the transition strip and landing.  Imo this shows the perp stood in the entrance facing out shooting at NB on the landing or the perp on the main stairs and shooting at NB on the main stairs.  The casings eject to the right, upwards and forwards.   

The perp was clearly stood in a very similar location for DRH/6, 7, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 43 with the barrel pointing in the same direction.  Then moved for DRH/3, 4, 13 and 14 with the barrel pointing in a completely different direction. The fact NB was shot on the landing and main stairs or main stairs only doesn't make JB innocent but it does create a highly plausible scenario for the claimed call from NB. 

[Myster]

DRH/3, 4 and 5 might have been kicked to where they were found by anyone in the room - June as she shuffled around the bed, Nevill or his son as they rushed to get downstairs, members of the TFG, or even Crispy who had free run of the house for four hours. If at first the door was open when the perp entered, then partially closed, then opened again before June collapsed in front, it could also have pushed them there.

[Holly Goodhead]

DRH/3, 4 and 5 might have been kicked to where they were found by anyone in the room - June as she shuffled around the bed, Nevill or his son as they rushed to get downstairs, members of the TFG, or even Crispy who had free run of the house for four hours. If at first the door was open when the perp entered, then partially closed, then opened again before June collapsed in front, it could also have pushed them there.

Yes I agree but its quite remarkable and some coincidence that the totality of the physical evidence all points to NB sustaining his lip, jaw, shoulder and elbow/chest gsw's on the landing stairs and/or main stairs: trajectories and lack of NB's blood found in the bedroom, leading out of the bedroom and onto the landing or anywhere on the landing.   

[Holly Goodhead]

Why do many of those that believe JB innocent including JB and Mike Tesko appear unable to argue the above?  Why did JB's defence at trial and 2002 appeal not argue the above?

JB doesn't believe NB was shot upstairs.  He believes the casings were moved by EP.  This probably originated from Mike Tesko. 

Jeremy Bamber

The following is an excerpt from correspondence received from JB:

"I've done a huge piece of work on bullets and bullet cases.  Those charts you sent are actual case ones (main bedroom).  But they were not actually true - the police made them up.  DC Hammersly the DRH accronym was not at the scene that morning 07.08.85.  The fourth SOC officer was DC Henderson.  He collected all the exhibits, dad was not shot or wounded upstairs at all".

Mike Tesko

"At least four bullet cases, were moved or displaced, from kitchen to bedroom, to accommodate prosecutions case against Jeremy"...

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,986.msg29877.html#msg29877

The Late Ed Lawson QC

Trial Testimony

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8094.0;attach=8257

No challenge to Malcolm Fletcher.

Michael Turner QC

Is there any reason MT QC didn't argue the above ie NB was downstairs with SC, NB phoned JB meanwhile SC went upstairs and shot June with NB then sustaining his facial gsw's and shoulder, elbow/chest gsw on the landing stairs/main stairs? Instead he attempted to explain the absence of blood on the phone even though the pathological evidence shows NB was incapable of purposeful speech after sustaining the facial gsw's. 

Ground 12 – the telephone in the kitchen 429. Ground 12 complains that at trial the prosecution failed to disclose the fact that an officer had used the telephone at White House Farm on 7 August, thereby potentially destroying evidence and disturbing the original scene. This ground of course closely related to grounds 4 and 4a but nevertheless stands as a ground in which non-disclosure is again raised.

430. At trial the evidence was that when the kitchen was entered the telephone in the kitchen was off the hook as can be seen in a number of photographs particularly photographs 13 and 14. The defence contended that the telephone off the hook was entirely consistent with Nevill Bamber having phoned the Appellant. The Prosecution countered this by alleging that the Appellant had set the scene. They drew attention to the fact that Nevill Bamber was severely bloodied and that the telephone had no visible blood upon it although no swabs were taken from it.

431. Complaint is made that the Crown failed to disclose at trial the fact that an officer of the TFG had used the telephone in the office at White House Farm. Detective Superintendent Ainsley wrote in both his full and interim report:

"In the company office on the first floor was a blue coloured telephone with a digital display memory. There is no evidence to suggest this telephone was used on the night in question but it was used by an officer of the Essex Police Tactical Firearms Group after the farmhouse was entered".

432. In order for the office telephone to be used it is necessary either to replace the kitchen hand piece on the phone or disconnect it or depress the black buttons on the phone. The telephone was plugged in to a point in a different room and hence was capable of being unplugged without any need to disturb the crime scene in the kitchen.

433. Mr Turner submits, however, that if Mr Ainsley's reports had been disclosed to the defence at trial, they could have canvassed the real possibility that the hand piece was indeed replaced on the kitchen phone to enable a phone call to be made on the office phone and thereafter the hand piece was removed again to recreate the scene of crime.

434. Mr Turner places some reliance on a statement of the 11 November 1986 made by DS Davidson, the scenes of crime officer who arrived at the farmhouse at 8.40 a.m. He wrote:

"When I got there, there were policemen everywhere so it seemed. I spoke to some Uniform officers in the farmyard but I could not find out exactly what happened".

435. Later he wrote:

"The impression I got when I arrived was that the scene was not being preserved and I was surprised to see those officers in the house".

436. We were also invited to look at photograph 13 in the jury bundle which shows blood staining on the kitchen working surface a foot or so from the kitchen telephone.

437. Mr Ainsley has been asked what the source was of his information that a phone call was made from the office. In a recent statement dated the 24 September 2002 he wrote:

"Obviously somebody told me they'd used the phone because I've got it in my report and it would have been the subject of a written report of some type".

438. No such written report has been found. Mr Ainsley also wrote:

"From my best recollection it was a totally separate line a different telephone line altogether".

439. This of course was inaccurate as would have been obvious to anyone actually using or trying to use the office phone.

440. It is clear the Mr Ainsley cannot identify the source of his information. Statements have been taken from all 10 firearms officers who were inside the farmhouse. They all deny using the telephone. They had no need to use the office telephone. Each had his own police radio and in any event each was trained not to disturb the scene of any crime.

441. Mr Turner applied to call Mr Ainsley so that he might cross-examine him about this matter. We refused that application on the grounds that he could give no evidence from his personal knowledge about the matter and he was unable to identify the source of his information. We did not consider it to be in the interests of justice to receive hearsay evidence from an unidentified source, not least when it would be directly contradicted by 10 witnesses whom Mr Turner quite understandably did not wish to cross-examine.

442. We have concluded that even if a phone call was made from the office and even if the hand piece on the kitchen phone was replaced for that purpose and removed after the phone call, we cannot envisage that the acts of replacing and removing the hand piece could possibly remove all visible trace of any blood which might have been transferred onto the hand piece when Nevill Bamber made the phone call in issue. We have had regard to the extent of Nevill Bamber's injuries and also to the blood visible on the work surface. We conclude that the possibility of blood being removed without visible trace from the kitchen phone hand piece by acts of replacing and removing the hand piece to be fanciful. There is no admissible evidence that any phone call was made by a TFG officer, nor indeed would there have been had Mr Ainsley's report been disclosed. As we have earlier commented it is not common practice to disclose police reports written in the preparation of a case for trial. We reject the submission that the possible making of a phone call from the office was deliberately withheld by investigating officers. Had they been involved in such an activity the information would not have been communicated to the DPP and to Counsel.

443. We do not believe there was any disturbance of the crime scene. Mr Davidson's statement made no mention of any actual disturbance nor do we consider there to be a realistic possibility that any blood was removed from the kitchen phone hand piece. This ground, as was the case with ground 2, depends upon unsubstantiated hearsay and must necessarily fail.