Scene Of Crime Reconstruction

[Samson]

Yes and we know what happened next, the court of appeal threw each and every point out in a damning verdict.

I have yet to see a case where a direct appeal released a person convicted of murder, bar Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito. Appeal courts exist to sanctify verdicts by juries and sometimes judge alone trials. This can be found by direct observation, not by logical process. This is true in America England Canada Australia and New Zealand.

Since we all know many people have been released by further action, the conclusion is that direct appeals are the worst way to establish facts and crime reconstructions.

[adam]

I have yet to see a case where a direct appeal released a person convicted of murder, bar Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito. Appeal courts exist to sanctify verdicts by juries and sometimes judge alone trials. This can be found by direct observation, not by logical process. This is true in America England Canada Australia and New Zealand.

Since we all know many people have been released by further action, the conclusion is that direct appeals are the worst way to establish facts and crime reconstructions.

Didn't Barry George and Sion Jenkins get murder convictions overturned ? There must be loads of less famous cases as well.

There is just too much incriminating evidence against Bamber, who is the only alive suspect. Despite 32 years of trying.

[Samson]

Didn't Barry George and Sion Jenkins get murder convictions overturned ? There must be loads of less famous cases as well.

There is just too much incriminating evidence against Bamber, who is the only alive suspect. Despite 32 years of trying.

Worth a thread, but in New Zealand murder cases 8 direct appeals of 6 innocent man were denied.

Walter Bolton, 1   Hanged
Arthur Thomas , 2 exonerated and released, did 9 years
David Wayne Tamihere, 1, did 22 years but imminent court action is proving he was framed by prosecution and Witness C
Teina Pora, 2 exonerated and compensated.
David Bain, 1, found not guilty after 13 years in prison, and disgracefully treated by John Key and Amy Adams, justice minister, Proved innocent by simple science but not compensated. Banned here member Nostalgia-NZ was active.
Mark Lundy. 1. His next appeal will soon result in a disgraceful shambles involving police, prosecution, judges and parliament.

Count those up, 8 direct appeals denied and written up with arch mendacity by English style private club frequenting appeal judges.

I know what I am talking about.

[puglove]

But even if world experts assessed the soc on 7th Aug there are aspects that can never be known to anyone other than those who are no longer with us.  All we can ever hope to prove in this regard is that NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing stairs/main stairs which in turns lends support to JB's claim of a call from JB.

Or does it just lend support to NB being out of the bedroom when Bamber burst in and started shooting?

Adam, if you're out there, could you do one of your epic lists? Reasons why Nevill may have got out of bed? (eg. having a wee, wanting a drink, checking out why Bruce was barking...etc).

 

[adam]

Or does it just lend support to NB being out of the bedroom when Bamber burst in and started shooting?

Adam, if you're out there, could you do one of your epic lists? Reasons why Nevill may have got out of bed? (eg. having a wee, wanting a drink, checking out why Bruce was barking...etc).

 

If he did get out of bed to check why a dog was perhaps barking, he didn't get very far as he was shot 4 times in the same room his bed was.

[Samson]

If he did get out of bed to check why a dog was perhaps barking, he didn't get very far as he was shot 4 times in the same room his bed was.

adam:
Complete the narrative.
He was shot twice in the mouth, then his elbow was shattered and his shoulder disabled.

What happened downstairs after this??

[adam]

adam:
Complete the narrative.
He was shot twice in the mouth, then his elbow was shattered and his shoulder disabled.

What happened downstairs after this??

The evidence shows there was a huge kitchen fight.

[Holly Goodhead]

Yes and we know what happened next, the court of appeal threw each and every point out in a damning verdict.

The CoA has a long history of calling it wrong over long running MoJ's.  JB's case is no different in this respect:

This is what was said about other MoJ's at first and second appeal hearings:

Stefan Kizsko

"We can find no grounds whatsoever to condemn the jury's verdict of murder as in any way safe or unsatisfactory.  The appeal is dismissed".  Lord Justice Bridge.

Stephen Downing

"The court felt that her evidence was not credible and secure enough to allow an appeal against the conviction".

Sally Clarke

"Despite recognition of the flaws in Meadow's statistical evidence, the convictions were upheld at appeal in October 2000."

Guildford Four

"Both the Guildford Four and the Maguire Seven unsuccessfully sought leave to appeal their convictions immediately".

"The Guildford Four tried to obtain from the Home Secretary a reference to the Court of Appeal under Section 17 of Criminal Appeal Act 1968 (later repeled) but were unsuccessful.

Birmingham 6

"In March 1976 their first application for leave to appeal was dismissed by the Court of Appeal, presided over by Lord Widgery CJ".

"In January 1988 after a six week hearing (at that time the longest criminal hearing ever held), the convictions were ruled to be safe and satisfactory.  The Court of Appeal, presided over by the Lord Chief Justice Lord Lane dismissed the appeals".

Sam Hallam

"In 2007 there was a failed appeal with the judges holding that the evidence of the witnesses could still be relied upon".

[Holly Goodhead]

Indeed, But we have to make the most of what we have left and available to us.

Agreed but I can't see any evidence to date that JB's defence has made the most of what is left and available and/or looking at new avenues?

[Holly Goodhead]

Didn't Barry George and Sion Jenkins get murder convictions overturned ? There must be loads of less famous cases as well.

There is just too much incriminating evidence against Bamber, who is the only alive suspect. Despite 32 years of trying.

Other than the blood/silencer 'evidence' the case against JB is weak at best. 

The best advocates for MoJ's are family members.  In JB's case obviously he lacks this support.  Instead the void has been filled by cranks like Mike Tesko who continues to be an unmitigated disaster for JB.

[Holly Goodhead]

Or does it just lend support to NB being out of the bedroom when Bamber burst in and started shooting?

Adam, if you're out there, could you do one of your epic lists? Reasons why Nevill may have got out of bed? (eg. having a wee, wanting a drink, checking out why Bruce was barking...etc).

 

If you were a prosecutor I guess you would argue as you have ie NB was already out of the bedroom for whatever reason(s).  If you were defence then I guess you would argue as I have.  At trial and the 2002 appeal hearing there appears to have been an assumption by all parties that NB sustained his upstairs gsw's in the master bedroom therefore how could he have called JB when a) his facial gsw's caused heavy blood loss internally and externally and no blood was found on the phone and b) the pathological evidence shows these injuries rendered him incapable of purposeful speech. 

It is clear from trial testimony: Dr Vanezis and Malcolm Fletcher that JB's defence were completely incompetent and negligent in this regard: insufficient attention to written reports produced by expert witnesses, not visiting the soc, poor cross-examination of expert witnesses.   

I've always said if expert evidence can show NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing/main stairs it doesn't narrow down the perp but it does allow the defence to argue the phone call based on a plausible narrative.   

[adam]

If you were a prosecutor I guess you would argue as you have ie NB was already out of the bedroom for whatever reason(s).  If you were defence then I guess you would argue as I have.  At trial and the 2002 appeal hearing there appears to have been an assumption by all parties that NB sustained his upstairs gsw's in the master bedroom therefore how could he have called JB when a) his facial gsw's caused heavy blood loss internally and externally and no blood was found on the phone and b) the pathological evidence shows these injuries rendered him incapable of purposeful speech. 

It is clear from trial testimony: Dr Vanezis and Malcolm Fletcher that JB's defence were completely incompetent and negligent in this regard: insufficient attention to written reports produced by expert witnesses, not visiting the soc, poor cross-examination of expert witnesses.   

I've always said if expert evidence can show NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing/main stairs it doesn't narrow down the perp but it does allow the defence to argue the phone call based on a plausible narrative.

The trouble is the casings were in the bedroom.

David said casings travel 6 feet forward which further highlighted Nevill was shot while in the bedroom. Although he then posted a diagram showing the casings travelling sideways.

[Holly Goodhead]

The trouble is the casings were in the bedroom.

David said casings travel 6 feet forward which further highlighted Nevill was shot while in the bedroom. Although he then posted a diagram showing the casings travelling sideways.

The location of the casings are consistent with NB sustaining his upstairs gsw's on the landing stairs/main stairs.  The direction of the barrel and position of the casing ejection port upon discharge largely determine the location of casings. 

MF said casings travel up to 4 feet. 

I think David was trying to account for the casings that pertain to June's 2 head gsw's.  If these gsw's were inflicted in the found position then the distance of these shots and wound tracks would put the casings on the landing near the handrail.  This suggests the perp held the rifle at an unusual angle or June was in a different position from the found position.  Perhaps she was sitting against the door and fell sideways.

[puglove]

The location of the casings are consistent with NB sustaining his upstairs gsw's on the landing stairs/main stairs.  The direction of the barrel and position of the casing ejection port upon discharge largely determine the location of casings. 

MF said casings travel up to 4 feet. 

I think David was trying to account for the casings that pertain to June's 2 head gsw's.  If these gsw's were inflicted in the found position then the distance of these shots and wound tracks would put the casings on the landing near the handrail.  This suggests the perp held the rifle at an unusual angle or June was in a different position from the found position.  Perhaps she was sitting against the door and fell sideways.

I think that the blood smears on the door prove that June was sitting, then slid sideways onto the floor, Holl.

[Myster]

Smears on the door?... haven't seen or read about those!