Was Mark Rowley wrong to claim that Madeleine McCann was abducted?

[Mr Gray]

Have they found Madeleine or determine or how she disappeared ?

No.

Remember , they have several hypotheses.

Mmm.

Namely, as  said, IMO, they don't know.

none of that makes them irrelevant...

[Brietta]

I take it that also applies to Dave who brought it up.

Consider both your knuckles severely rapped.

[Lace]

No they haven't and furthermore it would be incompetent for them to do so. 

Rowley gave us two clues about this.  First one is his comment, namely, "However she left that apartment, she has been abducted" and "...we still don’t have definitive evidence about exactly what’s happened."

He stated that, "...she was not old enough to set off and start her own life" but this does not preclude leaving the confines of the apartment on her own.  Scotland Yard would be very silly to discount woke and wandered.


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8138.msg400450#msg400450

Mark Rowley said however she left the apartment she was abducted,  as she was too young to leave by herself,  now that isn't saying she woke and wandered is it?

[Brietta]

OG may be investigating the case, but they have no authority to arrest.

So they are IMO irrelevant.

In Britain they do ... in Portugal that would be the PJ's job.  Between them I should imagine they would be capable of apprehending anyone the evidence merited arresting.  European arrest warrants might be able to be used too?

I wouldn't have foreseen AC Rowley having a problem clarifying the situation should he have been asked the question ... I think the good working relationship built between the two national forces is designed to address such situations.

I think that level of cooperation is one of the positive outcomes of Madeleine's current investigation which might enable Joint Working Arrangements to be enacted should there be a future requirement, instead of the cumbersome methods which have eaten up so much time and effort in this one.

Why try to play down the job which has been done by the PJ and SY in the current investigation ... in my opinion Madeleine's case has at last been investigated with an efficiently by them which was not apparent in the first important months after her disappearance.

AC Rowley took pains to indicate that SY detectives were able to utilise the phone data only because Portuguese efforts had ensured it was there to be used.
He did not mention the fact that SY were only investigating because the Portuguese had not.

[Mr Gray]

As to power of arrest, what does OG have in this case ?

in the case of certain crimes they would ahve the power to arrest via european arrest warrant

[sadie]

I believe we jointly, regardless of our views, have actually thrown some light on SY's thinking.  They do favour abduction and I agree but it has to be accepted that the abduction could have occurred outside as well as inside. Furthermore, if Madeleine did meet with a fatal accident in the street then abduction is not the correct term.

There is very strong evidence in the form of the two tracker dogs which, a matter of hours after the disappearance, independently followed her scent on a route from the apartment terminating across the road from mini reception.  Did she get out and attempt to retrace her route to the kids club thinking her parents were there?  Did she fall foul of someone?

Her/The scent vanished on the little car park opposite the Tapas Reception


This is the very car park that IMO the get-away car would have been parked.

However, I think the dogs followed the sweaty scent of Madeleines lifter.   It seems highly likely to me that his /her scent would have been on the pink blanket and, if left out, also possibly on the towel which wiped the children down after their bath;

The sweaty smell of an adult would overpower the delicate scent of a youngster.  I dont think the dogs that night were following Madeleines scent as much as the scent of her lifter.

The lifters scent could have been put down en route to the apartment OR after the event ... and I don't think that necessarily Madeleine was carried along that route.

[stephen25000]

Really.

For a crime that occurred in another country ?

Can we a citation to show that  can happen ?

[Mr Gray]

Really, for a crime that occurred in another country.

Can we a citation to show that  can happen ?

didnt you know...


Resolving jurisdictional conflicts
Where the offence occurred on a single territory

Generally, an offence will only be triable in the jurisdiction in which the offence takes place, unless there is a specific provision to ground jurisdiction, for instance where specific statutes enable the UK to exercise extra-territorial jurisdiction:

sexual offences against children (section 72 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003) A new section 72 was substituted by the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 which came into effect from 14 July 2008 onwards. It is important to ensure that any prosecution is brought under the provision in force at the time the alleged conduct occured as the terms of the substantive provisions and details of the offences they cover are not identical;
murder and manslaughter (subsection 9 and 10 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861)

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/jurisdiction/#an02


so SY could have powers to arrest

[stephen25000]

All hypothetical.

So on what grounds could SY have jurisdiction here ?

The crime if  any, is undetermined, AND , if one occurred , it was in Portugal.

[Benice]

In Britain they do ... in Portugal that would be the PJ's job.  Between them I should imagine they would be capable of apprehending anyone the evidence merited arresting.  European arrest warrants might be able to be used too?

I wouldn't have foreseen AC Rowley having a problem clarifying the situation should he have been asked the question ... I think the good working relationship built between the two national forces is designed to address such situations.

I think that level of cooperation is one of the positive outcomes of Madeleine's current investigation which might enable Joint Working Arrangements to be enacted should there be a future requirement, instead of the cumbersome methods which have eaten up so much time and effort in this one.

Why try to play down the job which has been done by the PJ and SY in the current investigation ... in my opinion Madeleine's case has at last been investigated with an efficiently by them which was not apparent in the first important months after her disappearance.

AC Rowley took pains to indicate that SY detectives were able to utilise the phone data only because Portuguese efforts had ensured it was there to be used.
He did not mention the fact that SY were only investigating because the Portuguese had not.

Also the fact that both police forces are singing from the same hymn sheet with regard to the McCanns is very relevant IMO.

Quote from SY -

Neither the McCanns nor their friends are either suspects or persons of interest.
End quote

Quote from the Deputy Director of the Judiciary Police, Pedro do Carmo

Obviously, I will not answer that question. But what I can say, just as I did back in 2011 and 2013, is that Maddie's parents are not suspects.  That statement remains:  the parents are not suspects. Period.
End quote

[Mr Gray]

All hypothetical.

So on what grounds could SY have jurisdiction here ?

The crime if  any, is undetermined, AND , if one occurred , it was in Portugal.

its obvious what grounds they might  be able to exercise jurisdiction in portugal if they had to...they could issue an arrest warrant

[stephen25000]

Let's have the obvious grounds why SY would have jurisdiction and power of arrest, in a crime which hasn't been determined, and shows no signs of being determined. IMO, of course.

[Mr Gray]

Let's have the obvious grounds why SY would have jurisdiction and power of arrest, in a crime which hasn't been determined, and shows no signs of being determined. IMO, of course.

Did you read the cite that you asked for
If SY had reasonable suspicion and evidence that such a crime had been committed then they would have power to arrest if necessary
Your initial statement was wrong

[stephen25000]

Why would SY have preference over the Portuguese System.

Please enlighten us.

[stephen25000]

As a reminder from ADMIN, yesterday.


I have been asked to intervene here so I will.  Any poster claiming, abduction, murder, infanticide, accidental death or any other theory relating to Madeleine McCann's disappearance as a FACT will be sanctioned accordingly with a ban.  I cannot make it any clearer than that.  It is unknown what happened to Madeleine at this juncture so please be guided by this warning.

Admin