Bamber's former lawyer Ewen Smith and the Silencer/DNA evidence.

[John]

One other point worth mentioning.  When this debate was aired some time ago the pro Bamber crowd tried to argue that the blood could have come from animals which Jeremy had shot on the farm, more specifically, rabbits.

http://www.forensic-science.co.uk/bamber.html

Forensic scientist Mark Webster however was able to prove that this was not the case and in turn strongly criticised the Jeremy bamber forum for promoting false information in the case thus...


An "official website for Jeremy Bamber" has suggested that animal blood may have been confused with human blood:

"Human blood is made up of a number of different constituents including red and white blood cells, a number of different enzymes and plasma. Forensic science uses some of these enzymes to differentiate blood samples from coming from one person rather than another.

One of these is the AK enzyme and this became important in this case. This enzyme was used to say that the blood flake discovered inside the sound moderator came from Sheila and no one else. Humans have two types of the AK enzyme, AK1 enzyme and AK2-1. The blood flake was analyzed and found to contain the AK1 enzyme therefore it came from someone with blood group A.

What the court was not told was that the AK-1 enzyme that is found in human blood is genetically identical to the AK-1 enzyme found in the blood of pigs, cattle, rabbits, chickens and the fish carp."

Scientist Mark Webster responded as follows:

Adenylate Kinases are enzymes that catalyse the inter-conversion of different forms of adenosine phosphate. In humans and animals, different enzymes with AK activity are located in different parts of the cells and in different tissues. These are designated: AK1, AK2, AK3 etc.

There is confusion in the nomenclature. The AK enzyme that forensic scientists call "AK" is "AK1"

AK1 itself occurs in different forms in humans. Forensic scientists decided to call these different forms 1, 2 etc. and never used the 1 from AK1. This gives rise to the nomenclature: AK 1, AK 2 and AK 2.1.

The type of AK1 enzyme in a sample of blood was revealed using a technique called starch gel electrophoresis. The test result appear as different patterns of blue bands on a thin film of white starch gel, the patterns corresponding to the different AK1 blood types. The result obtained from the blood flake found in the sound moderator is shown below with known AK 1 and AK 2.1 control samples:



Rabbit AK1 is quite similar to human AK1, but it is not identical. About 5% of the structure differs between the two species. I cannot exclude the possibility that rabbit or some other animal AK1 could be mistaken for one of the human AK1 types using starch gel electrophoresis, but I think this is extremely unlikely. It should also be noted that the blood flake gave a positive result in a test for human proteins and other enzyme typing tests gave typically human results.

The ABO blood grouping system - familiar from blood transfusions - splits most of the population into the blood groups A, B, O and AB. The ABO system was also used to characterise blood in the sound moderator. The ABO blood groups reflect the structure of antigens attached to red blood cell membranes and antibodies in the blood. ABO antigens and antibodies are unrelated to the AK enzymes.

The statement "The blood flake was analyzed and found to contain the AK1 enzyme therefore it came from someone with blood group A." is gibberish. A person's AK type does not predict that person's ABO group.


So there you have it, yet another blue forum theory shot to pieces.   

[ActualMat]

John, brilliant post! Undermines MANY arugments put forward by many on the blue forum. I remember telling them that they didn't have it right but I couldn't find this info, well don! - this was about a year ago when they were claiming that the evidence should be thrown out of court because it could have been rabbit blood. Now they will see they were wrong.


Seems to happen a lot in the Bamber case. Am looking forward to the two court dates!

[Wicked]

Patti will always attempt to claim that black is white when we all know that black is in fact black.  She has now introduced the old contamination chestnut and claims that the tests somehow proved that Sheila's DNA wasn't in the sound moderator when science has shown the opposite to be true.

She apparently doesn't understand the science behind DNA analysis and actually attributes it to a lottery.  Quite pathetic if I may say so but there you go...deluded as ever.

The truth about the DNA is really quite simple, the chances of two people having 17 DNA markers in common is as already pointed out well over 1 in a million.  The chances of two people having 17 DNA markers in common who also both had access to the sound moderator owned by Nevill Bamber must be infinitesimally small.

You cannot have contamination of DNA, you either have it or you don't have it, there is no middle ground.  The chances that DNA collected from the baffles within the sound moderator would match with any citizen within the UK is again millions to one.  To use Patti's simplistic analogy, you would have more chance of winning the National Lottery jackpot than you would of having the same 17 marker DNA as that collected from Nevill's sound moderator.  That puts the whole thing into perspective.

To conclude, the odds that the DNA obtained from the sound moderator were millions to one yet Sheila Caffell came up with a match on 17 markers.  To have done so randomly would have required odds in excess of several million to one.  The forensic lab boffins must have been jumping for joy the day those results were obtained because they knew that regardless of the Law and the 20 marker rule that the DNA came from Sheila Caffell.

The fact that blood collected from the sound moderator and tested some years earlier was of the same group as that of Sheila Caffell also lends support to the contention that the DNA actually came from blood.  It is a logical progression when both blood and DNA are found within the same object.

Hi John

I am not a deluded person, I search for the truth and neither do I twist the truth is order to suit.  If I am wrong I will say I am wrong, but If I know what I am saying to be fact, then I will stand by that that fact. 

And the fact is, that the LCN DNA that was taken in 2002 could not determine 100% that it belonged to Sheila.  The conclusion was, that it may have done.  The other conclusion was, that it could not be determined that the DNA taken, was from blood. 

In my opinion no tests on the moderator would ever be conclusive after 27 years.  There is no blood left inside of the moderator to test.  Although there is DNA and that DNA could belong to anyone that had handled it.

The other thing I would like to mention, is that the rifle had been test fired with the sound moderator attached by Flethcher......So is it likely that any DNA from the rifle nozzle could have been projected up through the moderator due to hot gases. 

John you have wanted me to come on here to debate for a long time.....Here I am, but please don't call me names. I'm not like that.  Have a good day all.....

[John]

Morning Wicked.

I like you and appreciate you taking the trouble to come across and debate this issue as it isn't allowed on the Bamber forum for obvious reasons.

I agree that the words 'can't be shown conclusively' were used in respect of the DNA and Sheila Caffell in 2002 but the chance that it wasn't Sheila's DNA is several million to one.  You can't argue with those odds but you seem to want to?

In addition, if you add to this the fact that the DNA was female and whoever it belonged to had to have come into contact with the sound moderator then you have a situation where it couldn't possibly have been anyone else's DNA other than Sheila Caffell.

The DNA doesn't belong to just anybody who handled the moderator otherwise there wouldn't be such a close link to Sheila Caffell.  I agree that the link to blood hasn't been made scientifically but what else could it have come from?

[John]

Andrea, I notice that Caroline across on the Bamber forum is promoting the lie that Sheila's DNA wasn't found in the DRB/01 sound moderator when DNA analysis became available in 2001.  This has been explored in great depth and the chances that the DNA didn't belong to Sheila was several million to one.   Maybe Caroline believes in such odds but I certain don't.

The bottom line is the silencer was purchased new and only the Bamber family used it.  In those circumstances therefore and taking into account the fact that Sheila was not biologically connected to any of the adults on the farm, there can only be one conclusion.  The DNA found on the innermost baffles did in fact belong to Sheila Caffell and most probably derived from her blood which was most definitely found in the silencer in 1985.

[jackiepreece]

Where do you think the silencer is now John?

Obviously in safe keeping as this case has always been subject to an appeal application

Forensic science has moved on so much and maybe the blood issue could be decided without any doubt once and for all?

[sika]

Where do you think the silencer is now John?

Obviously in safe keeping as this case has always been subject to an appeal application

Forensic science has moved on so much and maybe the blood issue could be decided without any doubt once and for all?

It already has been. Bamber fanatics who believe that there has been a conspiracy, will always cast doubt on any piece of evidence. It's so easy.

[Andrea]

It was either 17 or 18 markers matched sheilas blood, thats a lot. Not conclusive but pretty much certain.
I was signed into both forums last night john, but i wasnt actually at the computer.

[Angelo222]

It was either 17 or 18 markers matched sheilas blood, thats a lot. Not conclusive but pretty much certain.
I was signed into both forums last night john, but i wasnt actually at the computer.

Considering you don't even need that many matches in order to get a conviction in the USA I would call that pretty dam convincing!!!!!!!

Carolinr or is it Keira obviously is grasping at more straws.   

[John]

The accepted threshold for DNA for legal purposes in the UK is currently set very high at 10 pairs or 20 markers.  In the USA the threshold is much lower and varies between States.  It is quite remarkable that when the silencer was tested for DNA it returned a 17 marker exact match to Sheila Caffell.  The forensic scientists must have been gob-smacked when these results were obtained since the sample was so small.  In fact, the sample was so small that they couldn't even tell whether it was blood or not.

Luckily, tests were conducted in 1985 when a larger sample was available and this returned a result which showed that the blood was human and was indistinguishable with that of Sheila Caffell.

It was reported at the last appeal that the tests were inconclusive but one must realise that this is because the threshold is set so high.  In actual fact, the chances that the sample found in the silence did not come from Sheila must be at least 10 million to one at the very least.  That for me is conclusive in anyone's money!

[Holly Goodhead]

Serving CCRC Commissioner Ewen Smith once represented Jeremy Bamber as his lawyer.  In the following excerpt from one of the many ITN news reports broadcast after the trial, Ewen Smith, then acting for Bamber states, "The CCRC's ah examination of the ah DNA in the silencer has revealed that there is no trace in the female DNA matching Sheila Caffell's...at all...not a scintilla appears of a match." He continues stating that there is  every possibility that Sheila Caffell's blood was not in the silencer.

Fast forward to 4.45

The truth however as we now know it is that the DNA recovered from inside the silencer and originating from the baffles returned 17 similar markers with Sheila Caffell and it is accepted that up to 13 could be coincidental rendering it highly likely that the DNA found deep within the sound moderator did come from Sheila Caffell.

It should be noted that by using 15 or 16 markers the chances of two people having the same DNA is estimated to be around 1 in a trillion.  The chances then that the DNA in the silencer just happened to derive from someone other than Sheila Caffell are so infinitesimally small as to be nigh impossible.

I wonder if he has now changed his position?

Call me naive or stupid but up until I read Blood Relations by Roger Wilkes I thought that the blood found in the silencer was that of Sheila's 100%.  I had not realised that it was simply her type which is shared by others including that of her Uncle, Mr Boutflour, who I believe had a hand in finding the silencer  . According to Wilkes, Jeremy's QC decided not to present this information to the jury  >@@(*&).

In the above link Mr Ewan Smith seems to imply that the blood found in the silencer is that of Sheila Caffell's or a mixture of Mr and Mrs Bamber's 8-)(--)  He makes no reference to the possibility of contamination/Mr Boutflour  8-)(--)

Here is a link to the 'Crimes That Shook Britian - Jeremy Bamber'.  At about 18.30 in DI Mr Bob Miller seems to also imply that the blood found in the silencer was that of Sheila's 100%  8-)(--)

[Myster]

Call me naive or stupid but up until I read Blood Relations by Roger Wilkes I thought that the blood found in the silencer was that of Sheila's 100%.  I had not realised that it was simply her type which is shared by others including that of her Uncle, Mr Boutflour, who I believe had a hand in finding the silencer  . According to Wilkes, Jeremy's QC decided not to present this information to the jury  >@@(*&).

In the above link Mr Ewan Smith seems to imply that the blood found in the silencer is that of Sheila Caffell's or a mixture of Mr and Mrs Bamber's 8-)(--)  He makes no reference to the possibility of contamination/Mr Boutflour  8-)(--)

Here is a link to the 'Crimes That Shook Britian - Jeremy Bamber'.  At about 18.30 in DI Mr Bob Miller seems to also imply that the blood found in the silencer was that of Sheila's 100%  8-)(--)

It was Sheila's cousin David Boutflour who found and handled the silencer before he realised that it was contaminated with blood, Holly... blood was found deep within the baffles as a result it is thought of being backspattered from a close contact shot to Sheila's neck, rather than by any unintended or devious means by either Robert or David Boutflour.

[Holly Goodhead]

Serving CCRC Commissioner Ewen Smith once represented Jeremy Bamber as his lawyer.  In the following excerpt from one of the many ITN news reports broadcast after the trial, Ewen Smith, then acting for Bamber states, "The CCRC's ah examination of the ah DNA in the silencer has revealed that there is no trace in the female DNA matching Sheila Caffell's...at all...not a scintilla appears of a match." He continues stating that there is  every possibility that Sheila Caffell's blood was not in the silencer.

Fast forward to 4.45

The truth however as we now know it is that the DNA recovered from inside the silencer and originating from the baffles returned 17 similar markers with Sheila Caffell and it is accepted that up to 13 could be coincidental rendering it highly likely that the DNA found deep within the sound moderator did come from Sheila Caffell.

It should be noted that by using 15 or 16 markers the chances of two people having the same DNA is estimated to be around 1 in a trillion.  The chances then that the DNA in the silencer just happened to derive from someone other than Sheila Caffell are so infinitesimally small as to be nigh impossible.

I wonder if he has now changed his position?

Call me naive or stupid but up until I read Blood Relations by Roger Wilkes I thought that the blood found in the silencer was that of Sheila's 100%.  I had not realised that it was simply her type which is shared by others including that of her Uncle, Mr Boutflour, who I believe had a hand in finding the silencer  . According to Wilkes, Jeremy's QC decided not to present this information to the jury  >@@(*&).

In the above link Mr Ewan Smith seems to imply that the blood found in the silencer is that of Sheila Caffell's or a mixture of Mr and Mrs Bamber's 8-)(--)  He makes no reference to the possibility of contamination/Mr Boutflour  8-)(--)

Here is a link to the 'Crimes That Shook Britian - Jeremy Bamber'.  At about 18.30 in DI Mr Bob Miller seems to also imply that the blood found in the silencer was that of Sheila's 100%  8-)(--)

Oh silly me I forgot to add the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-OlvzCVrmc

[Holly Goodhead]

Call me naive or stupid but up until I read Blood Relations by Roger Wilkes I thought that the blood found in the silencer was that of Sheila's 100%.  I had not realised that it was simply her type which is shared by others including that of her Uncle, Mr Boutflour, who I believe had a hand in finding the silencer  . According to Wilkes, Jeremy's QC decided not to present this information to the jury  >@@(*&).

In the above link Mr Ewan Smith seems to imply that the blood found in the silencer is that of Sheila Caffell's or a mixture of Mr and Mrs Bamber's 8-)(--)  He makes no reference to the possibility of contamination/Mr Boutflour  8-)(--)

Here is a link to the 'Crimes That Shook Britian - Jeremy Bamber'.  At about 18.30 in DI Mr Bob Miller seems to also imply that the blood found in the silencer was that of Sheila's 100%  8-)(--)

It was Sheila's cousin David Boutflour who found and handled the silencer before he realised that it was contaminated with blood, Holly... blood was found deep within the baffles as a result it is thought of being backspattered from a close contact shot to Sheila's neck, rather than by any unintended or devious means by either Robert or David Boutflour.

Yes Myster I believe it was David Boutfour who found the silencer.  But I think I'm right in saying that Ann Eaton, David and Robert Boutflour then took possession of it and inspected it around a table at Oak Farm.  And that the silencer was transported in the back of Ann Eaton's Ford Sierra along with Sheila's blood stained clothing.  >@@(*&)

[Outlook]

That is the classic misinformation put about by the other site.  They cannot make up their minds whether to discredit the forensic evidence by saying it was poor match to Sheila or if it was a perfect match due to deliberate contamination by the relatives.  They also have an obsession with Sheila's clothes.

They also like to claim that Sheila did it after she was shot for the first time, ran around the house, evaded the police and barked like a dog, with a bullet wound to the throat only to be shot a second time by the police and then Jeremy was framed in  a massive cover up by Special Branch.  Only one brave policeman saw through all this and correctly identified Sheila as the killer but he was silenced by a Masonic conspiracy.

Like I say it is Fantasy Island over there.

The Bamber case is boring and obvious and there are much better cases to review.