Bamber's former lawyer Ewen Smith and the Silencer/DNA evidence.

[John]

According to Colin Caffell's book Sheila met with her natural mother around May 1985.  I believe some letters were also exchanged.  I was not aware of any phone conversations.  Are you able and willing to provide your source for the said call made from Goldhanger?  Colin's book states that in the aftermath of the tragedy Sheila's natural mother found it difficult to liaise via phone as her other other children were unaware of Sheila's existence and her husband was unsupportive. 

As far as I'm aware Jeremy has not met his natural parents in adulthood.  After his failed 2002 appeal he sought the support of his natural parents via his probation officer but they did not want to know.

Are you able to provide examples of what you deem to be callous behaviour by Jeremy?  He sounds like a role model compared with some of the guys I have to endure at uni who can be quite boorish.  He was certainly no Mick Philpott et al prior to the night of the tragedy.

I struggle to treat anything said by Julie Mugford seriously as I fail to understand how any 'normal' woman could continue an intimate relationship with a man (Jeremy) who, according to her witness statement dated 8/9 Sept, confessed to her on the day of the murders to hiring a hitman to murder his entire immediate adoptive family.  Why did she wait until she was dumped to fess up?  Had she have fessed up straight away more 'evidence' would have been preserved eg the carpets.  Why was she not charged with peverting the course of justice?

You will find the reference to Sheila attempting to phone her mother here at page 11.

As far as Julie is concerned I believe she simply failed to accept what she had got herself caught up in and only managed to face reality when the relationship soured.

[Holly Goodhead]

Thank you John.  I hope I'm not an irritating Newbie asking lots of obvious questions.  I'll be back at uni next week so will have less time to post then 

1985 is a bit before my time but maybe some posters can recall the weather conditions at the start of August 1985 in terms of rainfall which would have made the fields full of deep mud?  What if anything is known about the geology of the said fields?

Yes he might have had advance warning of a motorised vehicle by engine sound and lights but what about another cyclist and/or walker. 

The difficulty I have with the bike is the exiting and re-entering Goldhanger which in my opinion would be very high risk compared with being on foot which surely offers more protection in falling under the radar quite literally.

Not irking at all as it helps those of us who have followed the case for such a long time to keep abreast of the basics.

I don't think there would have been too many people walking or cycling around in the dark at 2.45am in the morning.

We don't know that he cycled both directions, for all we know he never left the farm the previous evening and used the bike to return to Goldhanger after the shootings.

Thank you.  Aside from this forum I am often told I ask a lot of questions.  Thankfully my natural curiosity/questions haven't landed me in any trouble yet!

Yes I agree there was unlikely to be much passing traffic around 2.45am in rural Essex but it was holdiay season so you could get people departing for or arriving from airports.  I just think the entering and exiting of Goldhanger was very risky on a bike.  If I was operating covertly I would have worn dark clothing and a hood/headwear and gone on foot as I think it would have afforded more protection and flexibility in literally throwing one's self to the ground, crouching and crawling.  It would be more difficult if not impossible with a bike would it not?

I think I recall Mr or Mrs Foakes saying that they heard Jeremy leave White House Farm on the eve of the murders.  Apparently he was a bit of a boy racer and revved his car, drove fast etc.  Proably liked creating dust clouds.   

I think Jeremy used his car for the daily journey to and from work/White House Farm so I assume in a small village/hamlet neighbours would notice any subtle changes in habit.  Did the cottage have a garage?

[Holly Goodhead]

According to Colin Caffell's book Sheila met with her natural mother around May 1985.  I believe some letters were also exchanged.  I was not aware of any phone conversations.  Are you able and willing to provide your source for the said call made from Goldhanger?  Colin's book states that in the aftermath of the tragedy Sheila's natural mother found it difficult to liaise via phone as her other other children were unaware of Sheila's existence and her husband was unsupportive. 

As far as I'm aware Jeremy has not met his natural parents in adulthood.  After his failed 2002 appeal he sought the support of his natural parents via his probation officer but they did not want to know.

Are you able to provide examples of what you deem to be callous behaviour by Jeremy?  He sounds like a role model compared with some of the guys I have to endure at uni who can be quite boorish.  He was certainly no Mick Philpott et al prior to the night of the tragedy.

I struggle to treat anything said by Julie Mugford seriously as I fail to understand how any 'normal' woman could continue an intimate relationship with a man (Jeremy) who, according to her witness statement dated 8/9 Sept, confessed to her on the day of the murders to hiring a hitman to murder his entire immediate adoptive family.  Why did she wait until she was dumped to fess up?  Had she have fessed up straight away more 'evidence' would have been preserved eg the carpets.  Why was she not charged with perverting the course of justice?

You will find the reference to Sheila attempting to phone her mother here at page 11.

As far as Julie is concerned I believe she simply failed to accept what she had got herself caught up in and only managed to face reality when the relationship soured.

Thank you for the link. It is strange how people interpret things differently.  I read Ann Eaton's statements the other day and I thought to myself how could Sheila not know the phone number for White House Farm thinking that Ann Eaton was referring to her adoptive mother as opposed to her natural mother.  The relevant section of the statement is confusing:

"During the summer of 1984, Sheila BAMBER visited me at my home.  I recall that she smoked continuously and appeared strange.  I say that because I left her alone in the kitchen and went outside.  On returning Sheila replaced the phone into the handset and I asked her who she been telephoning.  Sheila said she had been trying to ring her mother but she didn't know the number.  I asked her who she had been speaking to and she became agitated and said that it didn't matter"

I don't understand why Vicky Pryce was charged with perverting the course of justice over a speeding fine but not Julie Mugford over 5 murders?

Ann Eaton's witness statements 31 - 49 appear to be missing are they available?  Anyway thank you for providing this forum it seems very well organised and civilised   

[John]

Thank you for the link. It is strange how people interpret things differently.  I read Ann Eaton's statements the other day and I thought to myself how could Sheila not know the phone number for White House Farm thinking that Ann Eaton was referring to her adoptive mother as opposed to her natural mother.  The relevant section of the statement is confusing:

"During the summer of 1984, Sheila BAMBER visited me at my home.  I recall that she smoked continuously and appeared strange.  I say that because I left her alone in the kitchen and went outside.  On returning Sheila replaced the phone into the handset and I asked her who she been telephoning.  Sheila said she had been trying to ring her mother but she didn't know the number.  I asked her who she had been speaking to and she became agitated and said that it didn't matter"

I don't understand why Vicky Pryce was charged with perverting the course of justice over a speeding fine but not Julie Mugford over 5 murders?

Ann Eaton's witness statements 31 - 49 appear to be missing are they available?  Anyway thank you for providing this forum it seems very well organised and civilised 

Holly, if you read on a bit further, Ann goes on to state that she had mentioned to June about what Sheila had been attempting to do and June had reacted in terms which shocked Ann.  I don't think Ann had seen June be so cross before.

Interesting point you make about Vicky Pryce and Julie Mugford but why the comparison as their stories have little in common if anything?  Julie didn't pervert the course of justice or commit perjury.

Remainder of the statements are ready for upload, we didn't want to put too much up at the same time.  There are several dozens pages still to add as well as those already notified but as yet not uploaded.

[Andrea]

Holly are you aware that JB robbed and trashed the caravan park. He stole over £900 and tried to say he did it to highlight a lack of security, he never paid that money back. Thats callous behaviour imo.
His behaviour after the murders was horrendous and callous.

[Holly Goodhead]

Hello Myster.  You might be right I have no real idea.  I just think on foot it afforded more protection in operating covertly.  Plus cycling through fields full of deep mud seems like hard work to me.  Also on foot it would have been easier to use a pocket torch.  Could he have cycled in darkness or taken the risk of using lights on the bike.

There are bound to be lots of coincidences in a case like this.  For example Taff Jones who believed in Jeremy's innocence falling off a ladder.  I personally think this was a tragic accident.  I have read on other sites that some conspiracy theories surround this.  The finding of the bike at Goldhanger might be innocent or sinister.  Any ideas as to how Jeremy got the bike from White House Farm to Goldhanger in the first place?  Did he transport it via a vehicle or cycle home on it?

Could I clarify one think here Holly.  There was no need for Jeremy to cycle "in the fields" as there are many farm tracks available to him.  Usage of some would have required him to traverse a gate.

Yes I appreciate that John.  My family home is in a rural area and I often go for country walks.  Plus I have many farmer friends.   But you made mention of deep mud so I had visions of Jeremy cycling through this.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=830.msg30871#msg30871

In any event I beg to differ on this point.  I think if Jeremy is responsible it would have made more sense to go on foot in terms of being able to operate covertly particularly exiting and entering Goldhanger.

[Holly Goodhead]

Holly are you aware that JB robbed and trashed the caravan park. He stole over £900 and tried to say he did it to highlight a lack of security, he never paid that money back. Thats callous behaviour imo.
His behaviour after the murders was horrendous and callous.

Hello Andrea.  Yes it is in Wilkes book.  I agree it was a real low-down thing to do.  Especially as Mr and Mrs Bamber appear to have been very generous to Jeremy.  As you no doubt know he eventually admitted to doing it out of greed rather than to prove a point about lax security as claimed initially.  And as you said he never repaid the money.  Doubt he had any intention of ever doing so. 

As far as I can see though this incident was a one-off.  I certainly do not wish to condone it but I don't think his ability to pull this off means he was capable of murdering his family.

I struggle to view Jeremy in the same light as say the likes of Mick Philpott.  There doesn't appear to be anything in Jeremy's background to indicate a propensity towards violent, aggressive or anti-social behaviour. 

Are you able to give me some examples of what you consider to be Jeremy's "horrendous and callous" behaviour after the murders?

As I said in a previous post he seems like a lot of the guys at uni eg immature, showing off, chasing women etc, etc.  I guess most eventually grow up. 

[Andrea]

Bamber only admitted the robbery after he killed his family, and only doing so because Julie told the police.

As far as callous behaviour after the murders, where would you like me to start!

JB couldnt be bothered to turn up at a memorial service held for his family.
At their funerals he  looked at his watch and said 'times up' he couldnt wait to go.
In the funeral car he was telling julie what he wanted to do to her later that afternoon, to the disgust of those whoheard him.

Going to sheilas flat and putting the twins belongings in a black bag and dumping them in the hallway.
Trying to sell sheilas photos to a national newspaper.

Yes he was slapping waitresses backsides at the reception held after the funerals. Laddish behaviour you may say, but considering 5 of his family were violently murdered, hardly appropriate.

As shona once said. What a f..king hero.
I could go on.

[Holly Goodhead]

Thank you for the link. It is strange how people interpret things differently.  I read Ann Eaton's statements the other day and I thought to myself how could Sheila not know the phone number for White House Farm thinking that Ann Eaton was referring to her adoptive mother as opposed to her natural mother.  The relevant section of the statement is confusing:

"During the summer of 1984, Sheila BAMBER visited me at my home.  I recall that she smoked continuously and appeared strange.  I say that because I left her alone in the kitchen and went outside.  On returning Sheila replaced the phone into the handset and I asked her who she been telephoning.  Sheila said she had been trying to ring her mother but she didn't know the number.  I asked her who she had been speaking to and she became agitated and said that it didn't matter"

I don't understand why Vicky Pryce was charged with perverting the course of justice over a speeding fine but not Julie Mugford over 5 murders?

Ann Eaton's witness statements 31 - 49 appear to be missing are they available?  Anyway thank you for providing this forum it seems very well organised and civilised 

Holly, if you read on a bit further, Ann goes on to state that she had mentioned to June about what Sheila had been attempting to do and June had reacted in terms which shocked Ann.  I don't think Ann had seen June be so cross before.

Interesting point you make about Vicky Pryce and Julie Mugford but why the comparison as their stories have little in common if anything?  Julie didn't pervert the course of justice or commit perjury.

Remainder of the statements are ready for upload, we didn't want to put too much up at the same time.  There are several dozens pages still to add as well as those already notified but as yet not uploaded.

Hi John.  Yes I did read on in the statement but again we interpret things differently as I understood this to mean that Ann Eaton was annoyed at June's response.  I don't really understand it.  Can we be sure that Sheila was trying to call her natural mother and not her adoptive mother?

"I then took Sheila back to White House Farm.  I cannot remember if the twins, Daniel and Nicholas were with her.  Later I mentioned this incident to Aunt June BAMBER and she said to me 'Accept people for what they are lovee.  Don't try and turn them into something they are not.  Perhaps you ought to look into yourself a bit more'.  I was upset and will say that I have never been spoken to by my Aunt in that manner.  I was only trying to assist.
My Aunt June Bamber was obviously having problems with Sheila at this time".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2161

Re Julie Mugford and Vicky Pryce, I see both of them as being scorned women and acting out.  Vicky Pryce took Chris Huhne's points.  At a later date he left her for his mistress.  Vicky Pryce then went to the press about the swapping of points.  The rest as they say is history.

In Julie Mugford's statement dated 8th August 1985 she makes no reference to Jeremy's involvement, or a third party, in any shape or form.  Having then been dumped, in her statement dated 8th September 1985 (number 11) she states that Jeremy told her on the evening of the 7th August 1985 that he had arranged for Matthew to carry out the murders. 

If Julie Mugford's statement of 8th September 1985 is true then surely she perverted the course of justice?  She lied in her statement of 8th August 1985?  Had she have told the truth then the police would have treated the crime scene differently, preserved potential evidence eg the carpets etc.  The police might not have allowed the relatives and/or Jeremy access to White House Farm. 

My boyfriend is studying law and his friend is on track for a double first in law from Cambridge so I will discuss the perjury issue with them.  Unless you know?  I think I read in one of your posts that you are or were a policeman? (I'm thinking of joining the police force when I leave uni.  My degree is unrelated but a career in the police force is something I'm interested in).

I look forward to reading the rest of Ann Eaton's statement as and when they become available.  Many thanks. 

[John]

Do you not think that Sheila was taking the opportunity to have a fly phone call with her natural mother when she was away from the farmhouse.  In addition, I read into this that this was the reason why June got rather hot and bothered when Ann mentioned what she had been up to.  June obviously was angry that Sheila had attempted to telephone her natural mother behind her back.

I would have thought that Sheila would have known the tel number of WHF without any difficulty as she was brought up on the farm.

At least that is the way I read it...could be wrong though?  >@@(*&)

[Holly Goodhead]

Bamber only admitted the robbery after he killed his family, and only doing so because Julie told the police.

As far as callous behaviour after the murders, where would you like me to start!

JB couldnt be bothered to turn up at a memorial service held for his family.
At their funerals he  looked at his watch and said 'times up' he couldnt wait to go.
In the funeral car he was telling julie what he wanted to do to her later that afternoon, to the disgust of those whoheard him.

Going to sheilas flat and putting the twins belongings in a black bag and dumping them in the hallway.
Trying to sell sheilas photos to a national newspaper.

Yes he was slapping waitresses backsides at the reception held after the funerals. Laddish behaviour you may say, but considering 5 of his family were violently murdered, hardly appropriate.

As shona once said. What a f..king hero.
I could go on.

Thanks Andrea.  Yes I agree it makes uncomfortable reading.  I have read about the incidents in the books but when you bring them altogether they sound worse and as you say callous.  I know people grieve differently but it does sound inappropriate to say the least.  But if he was responsible would he not have feigned grief especially in the company of others?  Surely he would have kept his head down?  I just don't know.  I'll have to think about this more and go back to the incidents in the books.

[John]

I cannot remember the exact detail of this but when he got into the car after the funeral he changed completely according to Julie.  I cannot remember if Colin also made a comment about his callous behaviour.  Maybe Andrea or Shona remembers what happened.

[John]

I don't think Julie lied in her first statement, more she just withheld a few things out of confusion and bewilderment.  It took her a few weeks to realise she had to do the right thing though and speak out.

[Andrea]

Someone did say, cant remember who, that they though Bamber was 'putting it on' at the funeral.

People do grieve in different ways, but thank goodness, most of us lose only 1 family member at a time not 5, and not violently.

My dad died suddenly, i acted normally afterwards, though i was devastated. But had i lost my whole family at once to murder things would have been different.

[puglove]

Bamber only admitted the robbery after he killed his family, and only doing so because Julie told the police.

As far as callous behaviour after the murders, where would you like me to start!

JB couldnt be bothered to turn up at a memorial service held for his family.
At their funerals he  looked at his watch and said 'times up' he couldnt wait to go.
In the funeral car he was telling julie what he wanted to do to her later that afternoon, to the disgust of those whoheard him.

Going to sheilas flat and putting the twins belongings in a black bag and dumping them in the hallway.
Trying to sell sheilas photos to a national newspaper.

Yes he was slapping waitresses backsides at the reception held after the funerals. Laddish behaviour you may say, but considering 5 of his family were violently murdered, hardly appropriate.

As shona once said. What a f..king hero.
I could go on.

Mick Philpott larked about at the mortuary, touching-up the nurses, calling his dead children "little shits" and complaining about the smell of their decomposition. He went on to enjoy an evening of karaoke until he was asked to leave by his disgusted friends. And some people said "well, people grieve in different ways." Just what was said of Bamber to try and excuse his behaviour after the murders. And what else do they have in common? The displays of faux grief, Philpott at the press conference and Bamber's risible performance at the funeral.