What evidence is there that the initial investigation was not fit for purpose

[Carana]

its in here...

http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Strategic-debrief-operation-task-2009.pdf

Cant remebr the page...will look later

Thanks for that. I'd forgotten I had it bookmarked.

p.15-15 of the pdf.

The resort "operator" contacted the PT FCO officer on duty. That person contacted the FCO in London, by which time a family member of the McCanns had also been in contact.

[slartibartfast]

Thanks for that. I'd forgotten I had it bookmarked.

p.15-15 of the pdf.

The resort "operator" contacted the PT FCO officer on duty. That person contacted the FCO in London, by which time a family member of the McCanns had also been in contact.

I think there seems to be confusion between the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Police. Davel was talking about the police, if he really meant the FCO he only had to say.

[Mr Gray]

I think there seems to be confusion between the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Police. Davel was talking about the police, if he really meant the FCO he only had to say.

lets just say contacted the authorities to save any confusion

[G-Unit]

there was no request for help from the portuguese.......why would the operator involve teh FCO if it was not a request for help

They reported the incident is what it says. Anything else is your invention, not a documented fact.

[slartibartfast]

lets just say contacted the authorities to save any confusion

You could have said that a while go.

[Carana]

The title of the thread doesn't quite correspond to the OP. I presume that this was a spin-off from a discussion on a different thread.

We can all speculate as to what Pinto actually meant, but it's not entirely clear.

I can think of a few potential ones, but obviously only IMO.

- In view of the fact that there was a torture investigation concerning a certain other missing child case involving several of the officers in this case, it might have been better to quietly put them on gardening leave (or assign them to something totally different) and draft in a different team. Whether that would have been feasible or not... no idea.

- Forensics: it wasn't thoroughly done (this isn't a criticism of the individuals themselves, as I have no doubt that they did their best with the resources and training at hand).

- Potentially useful CCTV footage in PdL wasn't secured in time (namely the camera near where the Smiths were staying). Whether he was head honcho or an office boy, Amaral was the coordinator. How many CCTV cameras could there have been at the time? It's not like it was a sprawling metropolis.

- PJ leaks.... Vast subject.

- Possibly not initially embracing support from the UK. The other side of that coin is that the UK may have made the PJ team feel that they were being swamped.

I expect that I could think of a few others, but I'm not suggesting that it was all bad, either.

In relative terms, I can think of a different missing child case that I find jaw-droppingly more worthy of "I’m convinced the XX case will feature in Portuguese judicial history as a bad example. What a criminal investigation should not be."

ETA: and my last point is related to the first.

[Carana]

- Another one would be grasping onto a so-called discrepancy between Gerry's first statement and the clarification in the second as somehow evidence of involvement due to an unexplained change of story. As statements aren't verbatim, it's hard to know what exactly the differences may have been between what the interview discussion actually was and what appeared in the statement.

In theory, it might be, of course, but it doesn't take into account what I find likely to have been an initially chaotic situation on every front.

If anyone can find any reading material that it was a smooth operation right from the start with a well-trained / resourced team, I'd like to read about it.

[Angelo222]

- Another one would be grasping onto a so-called discrepancy between Gerry's first statement and the clarification in the second as somehow evidence of involvement due to an unexplained change of story. As statements aren't verbatim, it's hard to know what exactly the differences may have been between what the interview discussion actually was and what appeared in the statement.

In theory, it might be, of course, but it doesn't take into account what I find likely to have been an initially chaotic situation on every front.

If anyone can find any reading material that it was a smooth operation right from the start with a well-trained / resourced team, I'd like to read about it.

Little wonder it was chaotic with the British diplomatic service and Leicestershire Police crawling around making a nuisance of themselves.  The Portuguese should never have allowed it.

[Mr Gray]

Little wonder it was chaotic with the British diplomatic service and Leicestershire Police crawling around making a nuisance of themselves.  The Portuguese should never have allowed it.

I don't think they had any choice....as they had no choice but to let SY investigate.....imo their investigation has not done them any credit

[Carana]

Little wonder it was chaotic with the British diplomatic service and Leicestershire Police crawling around making a nuisance of themselves.  The Portuguese should never have allowed it.

My assessment (from what I can gather, and the "scoping exercise" doesn't appear to be publicly available) is that it was a bit of a clusterf*ck, with lessons to be learned on both sides, but the situation was complex.

[Eleanor]

My assessment (from what I can gather, and the "scoping exercise" doesn't appear to be publicly available) is that it was a bit of a clusterf*ck, with lessons to be learned on both sides, but the situation was complex.

It was all so much worse than that, if you believe in  Innocent until Proven  Guilty.  I will probably never recover.  And that's just me. Heaven alone help The McCans.

[Mr Gray]

It was all so much worse than that, if you believe in  Innocent until Proven  Guilty.  I will probably never recover.  And that's just me. Heaven alone help The McCans.

The point bis that even if they had been tried and found not guilty....that would not prove their innocence.....so how can they possibly prove their innocence

[Carana]

It was all so much worse than that, if you believe in  Innocent until Proven  Guilty.  I will probably never recover.  And that's just me. Heaven alone help The McCans.

That's the assumption. It doesn't seem to work like that in practice.

[G-Unit]

That's the assumption. It doesn't seem to work like that in practice.

The principle of innocent until proved guilty is a procedural guide to the treatment of those charged with a crime. As the McCanns were never charged their right to be treated as innocent until proved guilty was never either involved or breached.

 "Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.". Article 6, ECHR

[Eleanor]

The principle of innocent until proved guilty is a procedural guide to the treatment of those charged with a crime. As the McCanns were never charged their right to be treated as innocent until proved guilty was never either involved or breached.

 "Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.". Article 6, ECHR

You could have fooled me.