Author Topic: Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?  (Read 48476 times)

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Offline jassi

Re: Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?
« Reply #180 on: January 04, 2018, 10:27:04 AM »
It may have ... it is impossible to quantify what the effect Goncalo Amaral's opinion might have had in the golden hours and early days of Madeleine's disappearance.

Ah, badly expressed. I was referring to the run of the mill social media and forum-haunting member of the public
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Carana

Re: Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?
« Reply #181 on: January 04, 2018, 10:54:52 AM »
David James Smith  seems to have been confided in by the McCanns. He got lots of details from them despite their claims that they observed the secrecy laws. He seems to know who it was who told them to show no emotion in public;

Jim Gamble, chief executive of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre, told them that if the abductor was watching he or she might take pleasure in the McCanns’ distress.

A bit of misinformation here?

there were, apparently, obvious signs that an intruder had been there. What they were, however, is not clear. Apart from the open window and shutter, neither the McCanns nor the police have confirmed any other evidence of a break-in.

From the beginning the McCanns had been warned by the PJ that they could not speak about the details of the investigation or the circumstances of Madeleine’s disappearance. The "secrecy of justice" laws prevented anybody involved, including all police officers and witnesses, from talking about it to the press or anyone else. Both Gerry and Kate were meticulous in observing this rule.


Apart from telling this reporter all about it?
09 September 2007
Victims of the rumour mill? Timesonline
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id96.htm

As the reporter tells us;

That week in Praia da Luz, the week the McCanns were made suspects in their own daughter's "death", I was out there talking to them and to family and friends.

He's another one who believes the McCanns are innocent and, like everyone else, he is relying purely on his instincts, not on any evidence;

To me, the McCanns are genuine people in the grip of despair – the accusations against them are ludicrous and a cruel distraction from the search for their daughter.

Some of the things he says are almost beyond belief;

They were first to the table at the restaurant at 8.35 and spent some minutes talking to a couple from Hertfordshire – two more tennis players – at the next table, who were eating with their young children. As they chatted, Gerry thought how lucky he was, his children asleep nearby, he and Kate free to come and enjoy some adult time at the restaurant and not have to sit with their children, as this couple were.

[/b]

Lucky or neglectful? 

Ah! The source of that little gem;

Earlier that week the McCanns had used a key to go in through the front door next to the children’s bedroom but, worrying the noise might wake the children, they began using the patio doors, leaving them unlocked.

It perhaps needs to be stated openly that all these timings and details, the way in which they weave and dovetail together, are based on witness accounts – corroborated not just by the McCann group but by others, such as Jes Wilkins


Really? Which 'others'? Wilkins was very precise; between 8.45 and 9.15 lol. Interesting;

Four times that night they put in calls via the British consul; four times the message came back from the PJ, a message that the McCanns would never forget: “Everything that can be done is being done.”

The twins slept on like logs, just as they always did at home, though even their parents were fleetingly worried – had they been sedated by an abductor' – that they should be quite so comatose.


Is that the logs who are likely to be awakened by someone unlocking a door? A passing shot at Amaral;

Sol’s journalist Felicia Cabrita had their names and phone numbers and details from their witness statements. She had called them all, and at least one other witness, Jes Wilkins.

The information had been handed to Cabrita by the police – she says she acquired the material through good journalism, which in a sense it was – and her source is widely believed by her colleagues to have been the former head of the inquiry, Goncalo Amaral.


Here's a snippet that the PJ can't be blamed for leaking. Where did that come from;

Leicestershire police have apparently paid for all the forensic tests being carried out in the case by the FSS – they are the client in the case, not the Portuguese.

Was there diplomatic pressure from the UK? He seems happy to accept that there was;

the Portuguese government and in turn the PJ had felt the heavy weight of diplomatic pressure from the UK – a pressure that the police and the journalists very much resented, with its implication that the police were not doing their job properly.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/9dec7/TIMES_16_12_07.htm

Yes, it's a more "pro" article than I'd remembered. And yes, there are a few inaccuracies, but on the whole most of it is, IMO. It was really only the judicial secrecy comment that stuck in my mind.

Several reporters stated during the Leveson inquiry that leaks were coming from the PJ (some of course, may have come from a naughty fan in the magistrate's office as well, I suppose). One or two came from the GNR: that they were roaring drunk - I presume that that's when Gerry fell to his knees and Kate was screaming her head off; and that the McCanns rang Sky before the police, which then got morphed into Kate had sone so. Neither of those appear to be accurate, but people tend to believe that what they first read is true if it fits their confirmation bias, and rarely bother to check for corrections.

I watched a number of the reporters testify, and I found Jay highly entertaining lol . Not sure where they're lurking on the Internet now and it would takes days to pinpoint them all in the videos.

Offline barrier

Re: Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?
« Reply #182 on: January 04, 2018, 10:55:40 AM »
Ah, badly expressed. I was referring to the run of the mill social media and forum-haunting member of the public

Would that be the armchair detectives who having read the files believe the evidence points to an abduction?
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Brietta

Re: Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?
« Reply #183 on: January 04, 2018, 11:06:11 AM »
Ah, badly expressed. I was referring to the run of the mill social media and forum-haunting member of the public

What came first, Jassi, the chicken or the egg?
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?
« Reply #184 on: January 04, 2018, 11:07:50 AM »
Would that be the armchair detectives who having read the files believe the evidence points to an abduction?

It's quite reassuring that SY agree with me

Offline faithlilly

Re: Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?
« Reply #185 on: January 04, 2018, 11:11:24 AM »
Yes, it's a more "pro" article than I'd remembered. And yes, there are a few inaccuracies, but on the whole most of it is, IMO. It was really only the judicial secrecy comment that stuck in my mind.

Several reporters stated during the Leveson inquiry that leaks were coming from the PJ (some of course, may have come from a naughty fan in the magistrate's office as well, I suppose). One or two came from the GNR: that they were roaring drunk - I presume that that's when Gerry fell to his knees and Kate was screaming her head off; and that the McCanns rang Sky before the police, which then got morphed into Kate had sone so. Neither of those appear to be accurate, but people tend to believe that what they first read is true if it fits their confirmation bias, and rarely bother to check for corrections.

I watched a number of the reporters testify, and I found Jay highly entertaining lol . Not sure where they're lurking on the Internet now and it would takes days to pinpoint them all in the videos.

Several reporters claimed at Leveson that the PJ were leaking. Tell me Carana what do you think it would have done for the said journalists credibility if they had admitted they had simply made the stories up ? If the articles were not true surely it is just as likely they were made up rather than leaked ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline sadie

Re: Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?
« Reply #186 on: January 04, 2018, 11:20:31 AM »
Several reporters claimed at Leveson that the PJ were leaking. Tell me Carana what do you think it would have done for the said journalists credibility if they had admitted they had simply made the stories up ? If the articles were not true surely it is just as likely they were made up rather than leaked ?

ORLY ?

Cite please

... or is it ONLY in your opinion that journalists, in the plural, would commit Perjury and  tell lies in Court ?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?
« Reply #187 on: January 04, 2018, 11:22:10 AM »
I think it is just something in human nature that some folk prefer to believe the worst of individuals they have decided for some reason or other not to like.
All without any knowledge of the situation or without true understanding of events.

It is real people's lives we are playing with here ... not an episode of a soap opera set in sunny Portugal.

Whatever ... in my opinion the fact that such minutiae is still being pored over with prejudice eleven years into that family's continued search for their missing daughter ... must be horribly unique and as far as I am concerned very disturbing.

Everyone commenting on the case has an opinion about her parents, but none of them are able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that their opinion is the correct one.

Despite that, some people seem to think their opinion that the parents are innocent of any wrong-doing is morally superior to the opinion of those who have doubts about them.

Those same people often have no hesitation in denigrating Portugal, it's Judiciary and it's Police; especially Goncalo Amaral. I think that puts them on exactly the same level as those who attack the McCanns; their behaviour is equally reprehensible.

Everyone has the right to have an opinion and to present evidence to support it. No-one has the right to suggest that their opinion is superior to anyone else's, because that is also just their opinion.






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Offline sadie

Re: Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?
« Reply #188 on: January 04, 2018, 11:39:06 AM »
Everyone commenting on the case has an opinion about her parents, but none of them are able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that their opinion is the correct one.

Despite that, some people seem to think their opinion that the parents are innocent of any wrong-doing is morally superior to the opinion of those who have doubts about them.

Those same people often have no hesitation in denigrating Portugal, it's Judiciary and it's Police; especially Goncalo Amaral. I think that puts them on exactly the same level as those who attack the McCanns; their behaviour is equally reprehensible.

Everyone has the right to have an opinion and to present evidence to support it. No-one has the right to suggest that their opinion is superior to anyone else's, because that is also just their opinion.
Gunit

The Mccanns have no known history of dishonesty.

It is IMO natural that with little evidence against them, most people will support The Mccanns rather than Amaral.


The above is a simplification of part of the reasons why people stand by the Mccanns.  Personally it is beyond my comprehension why people should so enjoy denigrating The Mccanns.  It is like a bullying game



Please excuse me, i have to get on

Offline G-Unit

Re: Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?
« Reply #189 on: January 04, 2018, 11:42:30 AM »
It may have ... it is impossible to quantify what the effect Goncalo Amaral's opinion might have had in the golden hours and early days of Madeleine's disappearance.

It's not so difficult to quantify the effect of the McCann's opinions though. Their abduction theory swiftly became a fact, as did the inadequacies of the PJ.

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Offline Carana

Re: Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?
« Reply #190 on: January 04, 2018, 11:56:53 AM »
Several reporters claimed at Leveson that the PJ were leaking. Tell me Carana what do you think it would have done for the said journalists credibility if they had admitted they had simply made the stories up ? If the articles were not true surely it is just as likely they were made up rather than leaked ?

One did, actually. Quite funny, really. Can't remember his name for the moment, nor which tabloid, which makes it a bit harder to hunt back for. He described how he and a colleague would be left with precious little time to fill all the space and made up nearly everything just to fill space in time for the deadline.

Several others explained how the pressure of coming up with a new angle or scoop by the tight deadline meant they had no time to fact check. Far easier to just crib, twist it a bit and get the piece out.

Have you read "Flat Earth News" by Nick Davies? Unless memory is failing, that exposé of media culture is what triggered the Leveson inquiry in the first place.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 12:01:19 PM by Carana »

Offline G-Unit

Re: Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?
« Reply #191 on: January 04, 2018, 12:10:42 PM »
Gunit

The Mccanns have no known history of dishonesty.

It is IMO natural that with little evidence against them, most people will support The Mccanns rather than Amaral.


The above is a simplification of part of the reasons why people stand by the Mccanns.  Personally it is beyond my comprehension why people should so enjoy denigrating The Mccanns.  It is like a bullying game



Please excuse me, i have to get on

Judging people by their past behaviour can be useful or not. The boy who cried "Wolf" told the truth, but was not believed because of his reputation. The idea that those who haven't been detected telling lies previously can't be lying now is just an opinion.

Those who denigrate the McCanns are no better or worse than those who denigrate anyone else. They are equally wrong.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 03:25:22 PM by slartibartfast »
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?
« Reply #192 on: January 04, 2018, 12:36:44 PM »
One did, actually. Quite funny, really. Can't remember his name for the moment, nor which tabloid, which makes it a bit harder to hunt back for. He described how he and a colleague would be left with precious little time to fill all the space and made up nearly everything just to fill space in time for the deadline.

Several others explained how the pressure of coming up with a new angle or scoop by the tight deadline meant they had no time to fact check. Far easier to just crib, twist it a bit and get the piece out.

Have you read "Flat Earth News" by Nick Davies? Unless memory is failing, that exposé of media culture is what triggered the Leveson inquiry in the first place.

The journalists said the PJ leaked, but only because they believed the Portuguese journalists who told them that was where they were getting information. It didn't and doesn't make the allegations true. Who leaked the information to David James Smith that the FSS were hired and paid by Leicester police? Who was daft enough to tell him how lucky Gerry McCann felt that he didn't have to sit with his kids during dinner like the Carpenters did?

Even when evidence became available the media seemed reluctant to fund any investigative journalists to properly examine it for the facts. It has been amateurs who have combed the PJ files and the court documents searching for the actual facts, not journalists. It's hardly surprising that people have turned to these other sources for information.
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Offline faithlilly

Re: Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?
« Reply #193 on: January 04, 2018, 01:06:59 PM »
One did, actually. Quite funny, really. Can't remember his name for the moment, nor which tabloid, which makes it a bit harder to hunt back for. He described how he and a colleague would be left with precious little time to fill all the space and made up nearly everything just to fill space in time for the deadline.

Several others explained how the pressure of coming up with a new angle or scoop by the tight deadline meant they had no time to fact check. Far easier to just crib, twist it a bit and get the piece out.

Have you read "Flat Earth News" by Nick Davies? Unless memory is failing, that exposé of media culture is what triggered the Leveson inquiry in the first place.

I have read Flat Earth News Carana and an excellent book it is too however I think it was the hacking of Milly Dowler's phone that triggered Leveson.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Carana

Re: Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?
« Reply #194 on: January 04, 2018, 01:34:00 PM »
David James Smith  seems to have been confided in by the McCanns. He got lots of details from them despite their claims that they observed the secrecy laws. He seems to know who it was who told them to show no emotion in public;

Jim Gamble, chief executive of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre, told them that if the abductor was watching he or she might take pleasure in the McCanns’ distress.

A bit of misinformation here?

there were, apparently, obvious signs that an intruder had been there. What they were, however, is not clear. Apart from the open window and shutter, neither the McCanns nor the police have confirmed any other evidence of a break-in.

From the beginning the McCanns had been warned by the PJ that they could not speak about the details of the investigation or the circumstances of Madeleine’s disappearance. The "secrecy of justice" laws prevented anybody involved, including all police officers and witnesses, from talking about it to the press or anyone else. Both Gerry and Kate were meticulous in observing this rule.


Apart from telling this reporter all about it?
09 September 2007
Victims of the rumour mill? Timesonline
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id96.htm

As the reporter tells us;

That week in Praia da Luz, the week the McCanns were made suspects in their own daughter's "death", I was out there talking to them and to family and friends.

He's another one who believes the McCanns are innocent and, like everyone else, he is relying purely on his instincts, not on any evidence;

To me, the McCanns are genuine people in the grip of despair – the accusations against them are ludicrous and a cruel distraction from the search for their daughter.

Some of the things he says are almost beyond belief;

They were first to the table at the restaurant at 8.35 and spent some minutes talking to a couple from Hertfordshire – two more tennis players – at the next table, who were eating with their young children. As they chatted, Gerry thought how lucky he was, his children asleep nearby, he and Kate free to come and enjoy some adult time at the restaurant and not have to sit with their children, as this couple were.

[/b]

Lucky or neglectful? 

Ah! The source of that little gem;

Earlier that week the McCanns had used a key to go in through the front door next to the children’s bedroom but, worrying the noise might wake the children, they began using the patio doors, leaving them unlocked.

It perhaps needs to be stated openly that all these timings and details, the way in which they weave and dovetail together, are based on witness accounts – corroborated not just by the McCann group but by others, such as Jes Wilkins


Really? Which 'others'? Wilkins was very precise; between 8.45 and 9.15 lol. Interesting;

Four times that night they put in calls via the British consul; four times the message came back from the PJ, a message that the McCanns would never forget: “Everything that can be done is being done.”

The twins slept on like logs, just as they always did at home, though even their parents were fleetingly worried – had they been sedated by an abductor' – that they should be quite so comatose.


Is that the logs who are likely to be awakened by someone unlocking a door? A passing shot at Amaral;

Sol’s journalist Felicia Cabrita had their names and phone numbers and details from their witness statements. She had called them all, and at least one other witness, Jes Wilkins.

The information had been handed to Cabrita by the police – she says she acquired the material through good journalism, which in a sense it was – and her source is widely believed by her colleagues to have been the former head of the inquiry, Goncalo Amaral.


Here's a snippet that the PJ can't be blamed for leaking. Where did that come from;

Leicestershire police have apparently paid for all the forensic tests being carried out in the case by the FSS – they are the client in the case, not the Portuguese.

Was there diplomatic pressure from the UK? He seems happy to accept that there was;

the Portuguese government and in turn the PJ had felt the heavy weight of diplomatic pressure from the UK – a pressure that the police and the journalists very much resented, with its implication that the police were not doing their job properly.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/9dec7/TIMES_16_12_07.htm

G-Unit,

My impression is that Clarence did give a few reputable journalists basic info re the McCann's version and asked if they'd be interested in checking it out. At the time, there were no available files to verify some details, so inevitably there are a few inaccuracies that we now know about. Personally, I prefer the more neutral piece by David Rose.

However.... don't forget that this was after the PT onslaught that revved up around 12-13 September, just when they were given leave to return to the UK, repeated by the UK tabloids about "tufts" of hair, "100% DNA in the car" and allusions to gory substances that could only point to gruesome remains of a thawing corpse, "100% DNA in the car", Kate couldn't cope with her "hysterical" kids, and none of that turned out to be accurate.

Add to that, various people on social media who were threatening to take matters (physically) into their own hands. You do remember "the Molotov cocktail" and the threat to kidnap the twins, don't you?

Imagine for one moment, despite the fact you may never have left your kids unattended for a single minute and therefore disapprove of the fact that they did, but that you'd unwittingly made a bad judgment call about something (take it out of context and try to imagine something totally different) that led to a disastrous situation and ended
up with not only (something) cherished that had disappeared, or any other situation that you would never have wanted to happen, and that you knew that escalating allegations about you weren't true, but everyone was then out baying for your blood (including the police who were supposed to be considering all options, but who, in the absence of any other obvious slamdunker that quickly panned out, had decided that you were therefore the guilty party in a heinous crime and genuinely believed that you were about to be stitched up in a foreign country? And bear in mind that the original team's only other case involving a similar type of situation had got people banged up under the maximum penalty under less than limpid conditions, and on more than dubious evidence.

If you can step back and genuinely imagine yourself in such a situation, and please try to think of a different situation to this particular context, what would you have done? Honestly?

I've heard so many knee-jerk reactions... but I'm hoping that you'll take a moment to think about it.