UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on February 16, 2020, 10:02:24 AM
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From Inspector Gadget
There are multiple options to the shooting reconstruction though, therefore surely you can’t accurately reconstruct? No surviving witnesses either to verify. The court widely accepted that you will never be able to know what order people were killed and exact order of shots. For example you don’t know if the boys were shot first or last, of if Bamber pumped one in their head then come back to empty more later after they were already dead. Only he knows how he murdered the children.
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From Inspector Gadget
There are multiple options to the shooting reconstruction though, therefore surely you can’t accurately reconstruct? No surviving witnesses either to verify. The court widely accepted that you will never be able to know what order people were killed and exact order of shots. For example you don’t know if the boys were shot first or last, of if Bamber pumped one in their head then come back to empty more later after they were already dead. Only he knows how he murdered the children.
It is possible to reconstruct a lot conclusively and draw inferences from that. Eg if expert evidence shows NB sustained his facial shots whilst stood on the landing stairs with the perp stood just inside the main bedroom shooting out onto the landing this supports NB downstairs in the kitchen on the phone to JB and upon hearing shots he dropped the phone and run upstairs towards the sound of gunshot and possibly noise from June. The inference here being the twins were shot after NB and June.
The most important aspect of the reconstruction will be to establish where NB and perp were located when NB sustained his upstairs gunshot wounds.
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http://www.crimescene-forensics.com/Shooting_Recon.html
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http://www.crimescene-forensics.com/Shooting_Recon.html
it is possible to determine bullet paths, location of shooters, location of injured parties, and muzzle to target distances. Once the shooting event has been reconstructed, our illustrator can represent the scene with great accuracy.
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it is possible to determine bullet paths, location of shooters, location of injured parties, and muzzle to target distances. Once the shooting event has been reconstructed, our illustrator can represent the scene with great accuracy.
But crucially there remains many different options of order of shots and victims so how can you reconstruct? Also assuming JB done it and staged the suicide scene, he would have been able to move things to wherever he wanted so that the scene the police found was not actually the true scene.
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But crucially there remains many different options of order of shots and victims so how can you reconstruct? Also assuming JB done it and staged the suicide scene, he would have been able to move things to wherever he wanted so that the scene the police found was not actually the true scene.
Wrong way around inspector,JB done it its up to his apologist's to show how Sheila did it,is it possible from what is known?
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But crucially there remains many different options of order of shots and victims so how can you reconstruct? Also assuming JB done it and staged the suicide scene, he would have been able to move things to wherever he wanted so that the scene the police found was not actually the true scene.
He could move casings but he obviously didn't remove blood stains that were visible and he couldn't alter the distance of shots, trajectories and victims' wound tracks. There's literally a mountain of untapped physical data.
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Wrong way around inspector,JB done it its up to his apologist's to show how Sheila did it,is it possible from what is known?
I would hardly call a team of experts tasked with reconstructing a shooting apologists.
WHF is the only unwitnessed mass shooting in British criminal history. The fact a reconstruction hasn't been undertaken is a farce.
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Wrong way around inspector,JB done it its up to his apologist's to show how Sheila did it,is it possible from what is known?
Oh I agree he done it for sure. I’m just trying to understand Holly’s logic. I am assuming JB done it because he had been inside for 30+ years and was found guilty in a court of law. So by that assumption he could have done whatever he wanted to the scene to make it look like a suicide. What we do know is that forensically there is nothing on Sheila that suggests she fired and reloaded 25 bullets, there is nothing on her hands or immaculate nails that suggests a struggle, nothing on her feet that suggests being anywhere other than upstairs plus her distinct lack of experience in handling a rifle of this complexity in her life. She simply didn’t do it, and the jury agreed.
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I would hardly call a team of experts tasked with reconstructing a shooting apologists.
WHF is the only unwitnessed mass shooting in British criminal history. The fact a reconstruction hasn't been undertaken is a farce.
It’s only a farce to the pro JB team as they want to go and reconstruct how they want to. But as I’ve said it would have zero credibility as he could and probably would have staged the scene how he wanted to and you will never know the order they were shot. You can’t pick and choose what you want to reconstruct. There were no surviving witnesses that could verify the exact reconstruction therefore you have to possibly reconstruct 7 or 8 different scenes looking at evidence available which would render a reconstruction pointless.
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I would hardly call a team of experts tasked with reconstructing a shooting apologists.
WHF is the only unwitnessed mass shooting in British criminal history. The fact a reconstruction hasn't been undertaken is a farce.
The only way to reconstruct is for Bamber to fess up,there'll be no need then.
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I would hardly call a team of experts tasked with reconstructing a shooting apologists.
WHF is the only unwitnessed mass shooting in British criminal history. The fact a reconstruction hasn't been undertaken is a farce.
The reason that a reconstruction hasn't taken place is because it was unwitnessed.
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It is possible to reconstruct a lot conclusively and draw inferences from that. Eg if expert evidence shows NB sustained his facial shots whilst stood on the landing stairs with the perp stood just inside the main bedroom shooting out onto the landing this supports NB downstairs in the kitchen on the phone to JB and upon hearing shots he dropped the phone and run upstairs towards the sound of gunshot and possibly noise from June. The inference here being the twins were shot after NB and June.
The most important aspect of the reconstruction will be to establish where NB and perp were located when NB sustained his upstairs gunshot wounds.
Poppycock. It is old ground and cannot be demonstrated with any degree of certainty that NB sustained his facial wounds on the stairs.
There are sound reasons why Rivlin and co may not have wanted a soc reconstruction, as discussed yesterday it would likely only have served to eliminate any doubt in the more simple minded members of the jury.
Again, I urge you to change tack. Your best hope is to write to Ms Mugford and implore her to recant her testimony.
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Poppycock. It is old ground and cannot be demonstrated with any degree of certainty that NB sustained his facial wounds on the stairs.
There are sound reasons why Rivlin and co may not have wanted a soc reconstruction, as discussed yesterday it would likely only have served to eliminate any doubt in the more simple minded members of the jury.
Again, I urge you to change tack. Your best hope is to write to Ms Mugford and implore her to recant her testimony.
Given that Julie has recently stated that she stands by what she said 34 years ago, there's little chance of that.
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Julie said Bamber told her the twins were shot first and Sheila last.
Common sense would stop Bamber shooting the twins 8 times, then going down to reload. So they would have been shot once each.
June was shot next. As he would not continue shooting her if Nevill was now a threat. The final 4 bullets from the first load were at Nevill in the bedroom.
The next round of bullets into June, Nevill & the twins could have been in any order. They were all dead or immobilised.
Sheila being shot last could mean after all 20+ shots had been fired, meaning she did not wake. Or it could mean she was the first to be shot after the kitchen fight.
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Julie said Bamber told her the twins were shot first and Sheila last.
Common sense would stop Bamber shooting the twins 8 times, then going down to reload. So they would have been shot once each.
June was shot next. As he would not continue shooting her if Nevill was now a threat. The final 4 bullets from the first load were at Nevill in the bedroom.
The next round of bullets into June, Nevill & the twins could have been in any order. They were all dead or immobilised.
Sheila being shot last could mean after all 20+ shots had been fired, meaning she did not wake. Or it could mean she was the first to be shot after the kitchen fight.
This is my view too. Twins first, one shot each, with a silencer. Then June, then NB then Sheila. Only thing I can’t really fathom is why Sheila was so submissive after so many shots. It’s as if she just lies there and let him shoot her neck (even know I know JB done it)...
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This is my view too. Twins first, one shot each, with a silencer. Then June, then NB then Sheila. Only thing I can’t really fathom is why Sheila was so submissive after so many shots. It’s as if she just lies there and let him shoot her neck (even know I know JB done it)...
Maybe she did exactly that. Her children had been killed. Her world had just been blasted away. Who knows? Jeremy may have given her the choice. Live, and undoubtedly be blamed for what had occurred, or die. He may even have told her that he'd make it as quick as possible and she wouldn't feel a thing!!!!!
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Maybe she did exactly that. Her children had been killed. Her world had just been blasted away. Who knows? Jeremy may have given her the choice. Live, and undoubtedly be blamed for what had occurred, or die. He may even have told her that he'd make it as quick as possible and she wouldn't feel a thing!!!!!
Yeah you’re right. I guess that’s what the confession would be good for. To finally give peace to these last remaining details. But he has nothing left to live for, and like Brady withholding information as to where his remains victims were buried, he will most probably take it to his grave. Such is his shame of killing children I doubt he will own up.
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Yeah you’re right. I guess that’s what the confession would be good for. To finally give peace to these last remaining details. But he has nothing left to live for, and like Brady withholding information as to where his remains victims were buried, he will most probably take it to his grave. Such is his shame of killing children I doubt he will own up.
I imagine feelings of shame to be beyond his capabilities. What's more likely to prevent confession is the retribution he'd receive, as a result, from his fellow prisoners.
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I imagine feelings of shame to be beyond his capabilities. What's more likely to prevent confession is the retribution he'd receive, as a result, from his fellow prisoners.
He is also arrogant enough to believe he'll beat the system one day. What else does he have to amuse himself? Look at all of the attention he's getting.
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He is also arrogant enough to believe he'll beat the system one day. What else does he have to amuse himself? Look at all of the attention he's getting.
Yeh. All of that, too.
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Oh I agree he done it for sure. I’m just trying to understand Holly’s logic. I am assuming JB done it because he had been inside for 30+ years and was found guilty in a court of law. So by that assumption he could have done whatever he wanted to the scene to make it look like a suicide. What we do know is that forensically there is nothing on Sheila that suggests she fired and reloaded 25 bullets, there is nothing on her hands or immaculate nails that suggests a struggle, nothing on her feet that suggests being anywhere other than upstairs plus her distinct lack of experience in handling a rifle of this complexity in her life. She simply didn’t do it, and the jury agreed.
What would you expect to find on SC's hands and feet and why?
The rifle is simple to operate and SC had been around firearms all her life.
Of course the jury agreed SC didn't do it whem much of what it was told was wrong.
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What would you expect to find on SC's hands and feet and why?
The rifle is simple to operate and SC had been around firearms all her life.
Of course the jury agreed SC didn't do it whem much of what it was told was wrong.
It’s been said about 100 times already but there was nothing on her hands or feet that indicated a struggle.
The video yesterday was clear that it wasn’t easy to operate by somebody who had no experience with guns. Myster also posted an excellent blog that discussed this at length.
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It’s been said about 100 times already but there was nothing on her hands or feet that indicated a struggle.
The video yesterday was clear that it wasn’t easy to operate by somebody who had no experience with guns. Myster also posted an excellent blog that discussed this at length.
It has all been said a hundred times already but I thought as someone new to the case? you might have wanted to cover all bases?
SC's found position is entirely consistent with her as perp. There's no reason that she would have any visible debris on her hands and/or feet.
The rifle was simple to operate, certainly less complex than many everyday items SC would have handled, and she had been around firearms and shooters all her life. Even in adult life she went beating.
To struggle mastering the rifle would be indicative of someone with learning difficulties which SC didn't have.
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SC's found position is entirely consistent with her as perp
Not entirely consistent, it can't be proved one way or another from her found position
There's no reason that she would have any visible debris on her hands and/or feet.
yes there is, her majesty versus bamber, appendix 33
The rifle was simple to operate, certainly less complex than many everyday items SC would have handled
which items that she handled every day would she find more complex to operate than a gun she wasn't familiar with. Apart from that odd time when jeremy tried to get her to load bullets into the magazine? she was not able to do it, Mr Boutflour said
and she had been around firearms and shooters all her life. Even in adult life she went beating
Colin Caffell, the Eatons and the Boutflours all actually knew Sheila from real life and confirmed that the suggestion that Sheila might have used the Anschutz as laughable. At a stretch they could imagine her picking up the shotgun, and we all know what the result of that would have been from Myster's graphic.
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It has all been said a hundred times already but I thought as someone new to the case? you might have wanted to cover all bases?
SC's found position is entirely consistent with her as perp. There's no reason that she would have any visible debris on her hands and/or feet.
The rifle was simple to operate, certainly less complex than many everyday items SC would have handled, and she had been around firearms and shooters all her life. Even in adult life she went beating.
To struggle mastering the rifle would be indicative of someone with learning difficulties which SC didn't have.
Sheila's position is consistent with her having been a victim stages as a perp.
The rifle may be less complex than everyday items - IF you know how to operate it - we have had a food processor of one form or another for years, but my partner wouldn't have the first clue how to use it.
Lost of people here go beating - they don't shoot.
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It has all been said a hundred times already but I thought as someone new to the case? you might have wanted to cover all bases?
SC's found position is entirely consistent with her as perp. There's no reason that she would have any visible debris on her hands and/or feet.
The rifle was simple to operate, certainly less complex than many everyday items SC would have handled, and she had been around firearms and shooters all her life. Even in adult life she went beating.
To struggle mastering the rifle would be indicative of someone with learning difficulties which SC didn't have.
I am not new to this case, simply a new member. I disagree with all of the above. Both your points Forensically and complexity are just wrong. We just simply don’t agree on any points but thankfully the jury has same views as me and the child murderer will die in prison.
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I am not new to this case, simply a new member. I disagree with all of the above. Both your points Forensically and complexity are just wrong. We just simply don’t agree on any points but thankfully the jury has same views as me and the child murderer will die in prison.
No one knows how jurors arrived at their verdicts. In any event I believe the blood/silencer will be undermined resulting in a referral to CoA which will then pave the way for numerous other points to be added that alone or collectively are insufficient for an appeal but added to the blood/silencer will be devastating for the prosecution case.
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No one knows how jurors arrived at their verdicts. In any event I believe the blood/silencer will be undermined resulting in a referral to CoA which will then pave the way for numerous other points to be added that alone or collectively are insufficient for an appeal but added to the blood/silencer will be devastating for the prosecution case.
I can't see it myself, there's lots of damning evidence against Bamber and not an iota which could support him. IMO you have created an Everest to climb Holly and are doing it while naked and blindfold. IMO Bamber will never be given any further referrals to the COA, he is in the right place and will stay there indefinitely.
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It has all been said a hundred times already but I thought as someone new to the case? you might have wanted to cover all bases?
SC's found position is entirely consistent with her as perp. There's no reason that she would have any visible debris on her hands and/or feet.
The rifle was simple to operate, certainly less complex than many everyday items SC would have handled, and she had been around firearms and shooters all her life. Even in adult life she went beating.
To struggle mastering the rifle would be indicative of someone with learning difficulties which SC didn't have.
Those comments just go to show that you are ignoring the evidence in favour of personal sentiment.
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I can't see it myself, there's lots of damning evidence against Bamber and not an iota which could support him. IMO you have created an Everest to climb Holly and are doing it while naked and blindfold. IMO Bamber will never be given any further referrals to the COA, he is in the right place and will stay there indefinitely.
And wearing mitts.
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In terms of shooting reconstruction the most important aspect is to determine where NB was situated when he sustained his upstairs gunshot wounds specifically the facial wounds: lip and jaw.
At trial jurors were told NB sustained all his upstairs gsw's in the bedroom and afaik the defence did not contest this. No reconstruction has ever taken place but thankfully it is never too late. If the prosecution are right then it stands to reason NB could not have made the call to JB as the pathologist made clear that having sustained the facial wounds he was incapable of purposeful speech thereafter. Also these wounds caused heavy blood loss internally and externally and the phone showed no visible signs of blood staining.
Myself and others, some of whom are experienced with firearms, believe the totality of the physical evidence shows NB did not sustain any gunshot wounds in the bedroom; the facial wounds were sustained when NB was stood on the landing stairs facing into the bedroom with the perp already in the bedroom shooting out onto the landing. NB then turned to retreat downstairs and when he did so the perp followed firing two further shots which entered NB's shoulder and caused a graze only wound to his elbow/chest.
The following physical evidence needs to fit:
Trajectories
Wound tracks
Casing location
Distance from end of barrel to site of GSW
Blood staining
Pathology reports pertaining to wounds 5 and 6 - lip and jaw
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.ph ... attach=676
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.ph ... attach=724
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.ph ... attach=726
Casings
Casing layout diagram attached
Layout of WHF:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.ph ... 5#msg25945
Video showing casings eject forward, up and to the right with said rifle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo
Distance of shots
64. In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin. The remaining injuries to the arm were caused when the gun was at least two feet from the body.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/jud ... index.html
Blood staining
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.ph ... attach=221 = Exhibits DRH/47 and DRH/49 blood staining from landing - DC Hammersley
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.ph ... ttach=3100 = WS of AE confirming police removed blood on stairs carpet
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.ph ... attach=215 = DC Hammersely conirming light distribution of blood on kitchen floor
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.ph ... attach=217 = above cont
57. Five carpet samples taken from the main bedroom were examined and found to bear numerous spots of dripped blood. These were tested and found to match the blood groupings of June Bamber. Wallpaper from the hallway to the left-hand side of the kitchen door was found, on examination, to be stained with human blood consistent with the blood grouping shared by Nevill Bamber and the twin boys. Since the boys seem to have been shot in their beds, it is a clear inference that this was Mr. Bamber's blood.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/jud ... index.html
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In terms of shooting reconstruction the most important aspect is to determine where NB was situated when he sustained his upstairs gunshot wounds specifically the facial wounds: lip and jaw.
At trial jurors were told NB sustained all his upstairs gsw's in the bedroom and afaik the defence did not contest this. No reconstruction has ever taken place but thankfully it is never too late. If the prosecution are right then it stands to reason NB could not have made the call to JB as the pathologist made clear that having sustained the facial wounds he was incapable of purposeful speech thereafter. Also these wounds caused heavy blood loss internally and externally and the phone showed no visible signs of blood staining.
Myself and others, some of whom are experienced with firearms, believe the totality of the physical evidence shows NB did not sustain any gunshot wounds in the bedroom; the facial wounds were sustained when NB was stood on the landing stairs facing into the bedroom with the perp already in the bedroom shooting out onto the landing. NB then turned to retreat downstairs and when he did so the perp followed firing two further shots which entered NB's shoulder and caused a graze only wound to his elbow/chest.
Trajectories
Wound tracks
Casing location
Distance from end of barrel to site of GSW
Blood staining
Pathology reports pertaining to wounds 5 and 6 - lip and jaw
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.ph ... attach=676
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.ph ... attach=724
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.ph ... attach=726
Image of cervical vertebra attached
Casings
Casing layout diagram attached
Photo of area where NB sustained wounds 5 and 6 attached
Layout of WHF:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.ph ... 5#msg25945
Video showing casings eject forward, up and to the right with said rifle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo
Distance of shots
64. In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin. The remaining injuries to the arm were caused when the gun was at least two feet from the body.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/jud ... index.html
Blood staining
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.ph ... attach=221 = Exhibits DRH/47 and DRH/49 blood staining from landing - DC Hammersley
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.ph ... ttach=3100 = WS of AE confirming police removed blood on stairs carpet
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.ph ... attach=215 = DC Hammersely conirming light distribution of blood on kitchen floor
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.ph ... attach=217 = above cont
57. Five carpet samples taken from the main bedroom were examined and found to bear numerous spots of dripped blood. These were tested and found to match the blood groupings of June Bamber. Wallpaper from the hallway to the left-hand side of the kitchen door was found, on examination, to be stained with human blood consistent with the blood grouping shared by Nevill Bamber and the twin boys. Since the boys seem to have been shot in their beds, it is a clear inference that this was Mr. Bamber's blood.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/jud ... index.html
And after all that - where Nevill was does not put the rifle in Sheila's hands or a phone handset in Nevill's
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And after all that - where Nevill was does not put the rifle in Sheila's hands or a phone handset in Nevill's
I've never said it does. What it does show is that the tel call was a realistic possibility if a shooting reconstruction places NB on the landing stairs with perp firing out of bedroom onto landing.
The above would make a formidable appeal point (not a reason for referral) as the jury (and judge) were led to believe something quite different.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_reconstruction
http://forensictrainingsource.com/shooting-incident-reconstruction/
http://forensicpieces.com/lists/5-csi-and-recon-courses/items/451-shooting-reconstruction
https://www.tritechtraining.com/shooting-incident-reconstruction.html
Shooting reconstruction brings up 4,790,000 hits but the above gives a taste of things to come.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwJamJLH_TY
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I've never said it does. What it does show is that the tel call was a realistic possibility if a shooting reconstruction places NB on the landing stairs with perp firing out of bedroom onto landing.
The above would make a formidable appeal point (not a reason for referral) as the jury (and judge) were led to believe something quite different.
I'm afraid this is a non starter. It would not make a formidable appeal point at all as it does not prove anything.
I don't see how you can expect to free Bamber using something which is merely a matter of interpretation and opinion. have you considered the other scenario's other than the ones which you think prove your point? As it stands, this will be batted out of court in short shrift. Please take heed.
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I've never said it does. What it does show is that the tel call was a realistic possibility if a shooting reconstruction places NB on the landing stairs with perp firing out of bedroom onto landing.
The above would make a formidable appeal point (not a reason for referral) as the jury (and judge) were led to believe something quite different.
I don't agree because Nevill could have just pushed passed the perp ending up on the landing and stairs when shot.
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I'm afraid this is a non starter. It would not make a formidable appeal point at all as it does not prove anything.
I don't see how you can expect to free Bamber using something which is merely a matter of interpretation and opinion. have you considered the other scenario's other than the ones which you think prove your point? As it stands, this will be batted out of court in short shrift. Please take heed.
It isn't a matter of interpretation at all it's what the physical evidence from soc depicts.
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I don't agree because Nevill could have just pushed passed the perp ending up on the landing and stairs when shot.
But that's not what jurors were told at trial. They were told NB sustained his upstairs gunshot wounds in the bedroom and therefore could not have made the phone call.
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But that's not what jurors were told at trial. They were told NB sustained his upstairs gunshot wounds in the bedroom and therefore could not have made the phone call.
He sustaining them on the landing doesn't prove he could.
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Where did the two casings from the bullets fired into June's head finish up, Holly?
The red dots are either blood spots or carpet samples with blood spots. The casings are black dots.
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Where did the two casings from the bullets fired into June's head finish up, Holly?
The red dots are either blood spots or carpet samples with blood spots. The casings are black dots.
You can't tell anything from the shell casings - for instance the shots fired at Sheila are on both sides of her body and the argument used is one of them must have bounced. Also, there was a bed cover on the floor next to June's side of the bed - did the casings fall on the cover or were they underneath - were they disturbed by the cover?
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It is possible to reconstruct a lot conclusively and draw inferences from that. Eg if expert evidence shows NB sustained his facial shots whilst stood on the landing stairs with the perp stood just inside the main bedroom shooting out onto the landing this supports NB downstairs in the kitchen on the phone to JB and upon hearing shots he dropped the phone and run upstairs towards the sound of gunshot and possibly noise from June. The inference here being the twins were shot after NB and June.
The most important aspect of the reconstruction will be to establish where NB and perp were located when NB sustained his upstairs gunshot wounds.
That couldn’t have happened, though
The phone would have been absolutely covered in blood & tissue
So that can be totally ruled out, which it was
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This is my view too. Twins first, one shot each, with a silencer. Then June, then NB then Sheila. Only thing I can’t really fathom is why Sheila was so submissive after so many shots. It’s as if she just lies there and let him shoot her neck (even know I know JB done it)...
Don’t forget Jeremy Bamber dragged Sheila along the carpet: that was proved by the fact her nightdress was bunched up behind her back and he’d obviously pulled the front down after repositioning her
There were also drag marks on the carpet
So no-one knows how she was sitting/standing when he shot her dead
My guess is she was cowering beside the bed trying to hide & then after shooting her he had to lay her flat and place the rifle on her lap to make it look like suicide
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Don’t forget Jeremy Bamber dragged Sheila along the carpet: that was proved by the fact her nightdress was bunched up behind her back and he’d obviously pulled the front down after repositioning her
There were also drag marks on the carpet
So no-one knows how she was sitting/standing when he shot her dead
My guess is she was cowering beside the bed trying to hide & then after shooting her he had to lay her flat and place the rifle on her lap to make it look like suicide
No reliable info exists as to SC's found position and those items found on or near her person ie rifle and bible as there's much evidence from first respondents and an expert witness that SC was moved between first respondents finding her and soc images taken.
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No reliable info exists as to SC's found position and those items found on or near her person ie rifle and bible as there's much evidence from first respondents and an expert witness that SC was moved between first respondents finding her and soc images taken.
A/PS Woodcock, who was one of the first to enter WHF and observe SC noted her head slightly raised against the bedside cabinet. And yet soc images depict her head flat on the floor. I will refrain from uploading graphic soc images but newer members can find these online.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251
Either the above was not disclosed to JB's defence or it wasoverlooked. Either way it was something the prosecution seized on at 2002 appeal and used it to its own advantage by suggesting it was JB who moved SC when in fact SC was moved at soc after first respondents entered.
518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
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A/PS Woodcock, who was one of the first to enter WHF and observe SC noted her head slightly raised against the bedside cabinet. And yet soc images depict her head flat on the floor. I will refrain from uploading graphic soc images but newer members can find these online.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251
Either the above was not disclosed to JB's defence or it wasoverlooked. Either way it was something the prosecution seized on at 2002 appeal and used it to its own advantage by suggesting it was JB who moved SC when in fact SC was moved at soc after first respondents entered.
518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
That isn't referring to her head having moved (which could have occurred when Craig examined her), it is referring to her body being pulled down so that her nightdress is gathered at the back.
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That isn't referring to her head having moved (which could have occurred when Craig examined her), it is referring to her body being pulled down so that her nightdress is gathered at the back.
No it isn't. He concludes after the second shot SC's head would have been propped against the bedside cabinet which is exactly as one of the first respondents, A/PS Woodcock, describes it but fast forward some 2/3 hours when soc images were taken and SC's head is flat to the floor. Those at soc clearly interfered with SC and as usual JB takes the blame.
518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.
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No it isn't. He concludes after the second shot SC's head would have been propped against the bedside cabinet which is exactly as one of the first respondents, A/PS Woodcock, describes it but fast forward some 2/3 hours when soc images were taken and SC's head is flat to the floor. Those at soc clearly interfered with SC and as usual JB takes the blame.
518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.
Read the next sentence Holly!
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Read the next sentence Holly!
What about it?
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No it isn't. He concludes after the second shot SC's head would have been propped against the bedside cabinet which is exactly as one of the first respondents, A/PS Woodcock, describes it but fast forward some 2/3 hours when soc images were taken and SC's head is flat to the floor. Those at soc clearly interfered with SC and as usual JB takes the blame.
518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.
What about it?
They aren't just talking about her head falling to one side.
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You can't tell anything from the shell casings - for instance the shots fired at Sheila are on both sides of her body and the argument used is one of them must have bounced. Also, there was a bed cover on the floor next to June's side of the bed - did the casings fall on the cover or were they underneath - were they disturbed by the cover?
Regarding Sheila, I do believe that at least one of the casings, DRH.1, must have rebounded off the side of the bed to land where it did. It's accepted, I think, that the final two shots to June's head occurred whilst she was lying immobilised in the doorway, with the shooter standing above her and rifle pointing downwards. The fully-opened door itself was blocking any ejected casings from travelling to where the largest number were located, between the bed and large clothes cupboard. Therefore, the only ones they could be were either DRH.3 and 4, or DRH.13 and 14, which makes Holly's theory that Nevill was shot four times whilst coming upstairs then descending, untenable. Picture yourself standing just inside or outside the bedroom doorway, or on the threshold, with the rifle pointing at June's head, and think which direction the two casings would travel and where they would land. Furthermore, the actual police diagram shows that DRH.13 and 14 resulted from the final two shots at June. They were there to examine the scene and carnage, we weren't.
(https://i.imgur.com/X3mkssf.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1lmau0X.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Cc80Ipx.jpg)
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A fairly accurate ITV WHF re-creation of June Bamber's body, the door blocking stray ejected casings from landing between bed and wardrobe to the right. In the real CS photo her head was more towards the threshold, but I didn't want to post that here...
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A fairly accurate ITV WHF re-creation of June Bamber's body, the door blocking stray ejected casings from landing between bed and wardrobe to the right. In the real CS photo her head was more towards the threshold, but I didn't want to post that here...
Was Sheilas nightdress examined for blood splatter from any of her supposed victims(Bamber defence) to me theres not a cat in hells chance of no blood splatter,look at the amount of blood on the Junes nightdress.
Why not post the real photos?
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Was Sheilas nightdress examined for blood splatter from any of her supposed victims(Bamber defence) to me theres not a cat in hells chance of no blood splatter,look at the amount of blood on the Junes nightdress.
Why not post the real photos?
Yes, it was examined. The only blood on Sheila was her own and all that originated from the two gunshots to her neck.
Supporters theorise that she changed clothes after shooting everyone and after the fight in the kitchen but no other blood soaked clothing was ever found. Just another supporter dead end I'm afraid. The evidence is very clear, Sheila could never have been the killer.
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Yes, it was examined. The only blood on Sheila was her own and all that originated from the two gunshots to her neck.
Supporters theorise that she changed clothes after shooting everyone and after the fight in the kitchen but no other blood soaked clothing was ever found. Just another supporter dead end I'm afraid. The evidence is very clear, Sheila could never have been the killer.
Thanks,not the best of defences for Bambers apologist's is it,going beserk with a gun then all calmness to change,did Bambers defence offer any thoughts on this.
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Was Sheilas nightdress examined for blood splatter from any of her supposed victims(Bamber defence) to me theres not a cat in hells chance of no blood splatter,look at the amount of blood on the Junes nightdress.
Why not post the real photos?
Zip file attached...
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@Myster 8((()*/
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Yes, it was examined. The only blood on Sheila was her own and all that originated from the two gunshots to her neck.
Supporters theorise that she changed clothes after shooting everyone and after the fight in the kitchen but no other blood soaked clothing was ever found. Just another supporter dead end I'm afraid. The evidence is very clear, Sheila could never have been the killer.
I have never claimed SC washed or changed. I believe her found condition was entirely consistent with her as perp.
Blood spatter isn't a one size fits all. It's dependent on many factors especially calibre of firearm and velocity of ammo.
Even if SC's nightdress contained microscopic blood stains from others how do you think this would have been detected in 85/6? The type of testing used then was blood serology which required blood stains to be of a certain size to achieve any sort of result. Had the nightdress not been destroyed against all protocols it could now be retested using DNA.
Hanratty's appeal was declined based on DNA testing as exhibits had rightfully been retained. Not so in this case and one wonders why?!
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Regarding Sheila, I do believe that at least one of the casings, DRH.1, must have rebounded off the side of the bed to land where it did. It's accepted, I think, that the final two shots to June's head occurred whilst she was lying immobilised in the doorway, with the shooter standing above her and rifle pointing downwards. The fully-opened door itself was blocking any ejected casings from travelling to where the largest number were located, between the bed and large clothes cupboard. Therefore, the only ones they could be were either DRH.3 and 4, or DRH.13 and 14, which makes Holly's theory that Nevill was shot four times whilst coming upstairs then descending, untenable. Picture yourself standing just inside or outside the bedroom doorway, or on the threshold, with the rifle pointing at June's head, and think which direction the two casings would travel and where they would land. Furthermore, the actual police diagram shows that DRH.13 and 14 resulted from the final two shots at June. They were there to examine the scene and carnage, we weren't.
(https://i.imgur.com/X3mkssf.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1lmau0X.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Cc80Ipx.jpg)
I have never said casings alone support NB shot on the landing stairs. Only the totality of the physical evidence can support that not looking at casings in isolation when all the research from US shows 25% deviate from where you would expect them to land:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://cmr-journal.org/index.php/ISJ/article/view/7104/5036&ved=2ahUKEwjthaD65uLnAhX0TxUIHdyfABUQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw1TA6-b2poGFVCnK_ekKKC7
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I have never said casings alone support NB shot on the landing stairs. Only the totality of the physical evidence can support that not looking at casings in isolation when all the research from US shows 25% deviate from where you would expect them to land:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://cmr-journal.org/index.php/ISJ/article/view/7104/5036&ved=2ahUKEwjthaD65uLnAhX0TxUIHdyfABUQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw1TA6-b2poGFVCnK_ekKKC7
Attached
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Regarding Sheila, I do believe that at least one of the casings, DRH.1, must have rebounded off the side of the bed to land where it did. It's accepted, I think, that the final two shots to June's head occurred whilst she was lying immobilised in the doorway, with the shooter standing above her and rifle pointing downwards. The fully-opened door itself was blocking any ejected casings from travelling to where the largest number were located, between the bed and large clothes cupboard. Therefore, the only ones they could be were either DRH.3 and 4, or DRH.13 and 14, which makes Holly's theory that Nevill was shot four times whilst coming upstairs then descending, untenable. Picture yourself standing just inside or outside the bedroom doorway, or on the threshold, with the rifle pointing at June's head, and think which direction the two casings would travel and where they would land. Furthermore, the actual police diagram shows that DRH.13 and 14 resulted from the final two shots at June. They were there to examine the scene and carnage, we weren't.
(https://i.imgur.com/X3mkssf.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1lmau0X.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Cc80Ipx.jpg)
When you say June sustained the final two shots whilst the shooter stood above her what exactly do you mean by this? Where do you think the shooter was stood?
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When you say June sustained the final two shots whilst the shooter stood above her what exactly do you mean by this? Where do you think the shooter was stood?
Just inside the doorway bedroom-side, or on the metal threshold carpet-divider, or just outside the doorway on the landing-side. If the rifle was pointed downwards and fired at June's head, any casings would either deflect off the door back into the room, or land and be cushioned by the carpet directly, as per DRH.3, 4, 13 and 14.
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Just inside the doorway bedroom-side, or on the metal threshold carpet-divider, or just outside the doorway on the landing-side. If the rifle was pointed downwards and fired at June's head, any casings would either deflect off the door back into the room, or land and be cushioned by the carpet directly, as per DRH.3, 4, 13 and 14.
So effectively you have the rifle muzzle facing into the room which doesn't fit with the wound tracks. For the perp to inflict those wounds with the muzzle facing towards bedroom and casing ejection port parrellel to the door the shooter would need to flex his/her wrist into an impossible position.
I believe the shooters position, based on the wound tracks, was facing towards the landing along with the rifle muzzle and casing ejection port parallel with chair.
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So effectively you have the rifle muzzle facing into the room which doesn't fit with the wound tracks. For the perp to inflict those wounds with the muzzle facing towards bedroom and casing ejection port parrellel to the door the shooter would need to flex his/her wrist into an impossible position.
I believe the shooters position, based on the wound tracks, was facing towards the landing along with the rifle muzzle and casing ejection port parallel with chair.
There are any number of possibilities which direction the rifle was pointing at her head. If she was still barely alive and rolling about in agony with her head moving, then the killer also varied position to inflict those two fatal shots. In any case, the open door blocked any casings from passing towards June's side of the bed.
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They aren't just talking about her head falling to one side.
I know. A/PS Woodcock, one of the first respondents, noted SC's head raised against the bedside cabinet. In soc images it is flat to the floor. Those at soc pulled SC by the feet thus her head was moved from the bedside cabinet and was then flat to the floor. In doing this obviously they disturbed other aspects to ie SC's nightie became rucked up behind and the position of the rifle moved and her body in relation to the position of the bible.
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There are any number of possibilities which direction the rifle was pointing at her head. If she was still barely alive and rolling about in agony with her head moving, then the killer also varied position to inflict those two fatal shots. In any case, the open door blocked any casings from passing towards June's side of the bed.
The wound tracks determine perp/victim position.
We don't know June's position just prior to sustaining those head shots.
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I posted something like this aeons ago, but if you're computer savvy, using either Windows 64 Bit or Mac OSX, and want something to play with, then you can download and install SketchUp Viewer free to use...
https://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-viewer/downloads (https://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-viewer/downloads)
In addition, download and save this file (click on Open, then Download)...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1etymv3a8zh6gzc/WHF%20FF%20Casings%20Animated.skp?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1etymv3a8zh6gzc/WHF%20FF%20Casings%20Animated.skp?dl=0)
In your installed SketchUp Viewer, click on File... Open... then navigate to the above downloaded file.
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The SketchUp Viewer download site is a bit dicky for me at present, but should work after repeated tries.
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I know. A/PS Woodcock, one of the first respondents, noted SC's head raised against the bedside cabinet. In soc images it is flat to the floor. Those at soc pulled SC by the feet thus her head was moved from the bedside cabinet and was then flat to the floor. In doing this obviously they disturbed other aspects to ie SC's nightie became rucked up behind and the position of the rifle moved and her body in relation to the position of the bible.
I have just read Woodcocks statement and he said her head was 'slightly' raised. This being the case, the position would have forced her chin down and he wouldn't have seen the 'two' GSW's he described. Try it yourself. This is also the officer who described blood 'leaking' from her mouth when he clearly meant 'had leaked'.