UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on February 19, 2021, 08:20:37 PM
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On 3rd/4th June 2020 the MET made an appeal in connection with 2 vehicles owned by CB. The appeal was uploaded to the MET's website but is no longer accessible. What's the significance, if any?
Defunct Link:
https://news.met.police.uk/news/operation-grange-update-and-appeal-403826
Transcript Of Appeal:
DCI Mark Cranwell, from Operation Grange said :
“Following our appeal for information yesterday, I want to thank those members of the public who have contacted us. As of 16:00hrs today, Thursday 4 June 2020 we have received over 270 calls and emails into the Incident Room.
“We are pleased with the information coming in, and it will be assessed and prioritised.
“We continue to urge anyone with information to come forward and speak with us.”
To re-cap :
Detectives leading enquiries into the 2007 disappearance of Madeleine McCann have made a new public appeal for information.
It is now 13 years since Madeleine was reported missing during a family holiday in Portugal and the team of officers leading the Met’s investigation, known as Operation Grange, made a public appeal on Wednesday, 3 June, linked to a significant new line of enquiry.
Met detectives working with German authorities have identified a man currently imprisoned in Germany as a suspect in Madeleine’s disappearance.
This man is white and in 2007 is believed to have had short blond hair, possibly fair. He was about 6ft in height with a slim build. He is 43-years-old, but in 2007 may have looked between 25 to early 30s.
We have established that he lived on and off in the Algarve between 1995 and 2007. He is connected to the area of Praia da Luz and surrounding regions, and spent some short spells in Germany.
This individual, who we will not identify, is currently in prison in Germany for an unrelated matter.
The Operation Grange team is revealing details of two vehicles which the suspect is known to have had access to and used around the time of Madeleine’s disappearance.
The first vehicle is a distinctive VW T3 Westfalia campervan. It is an early 1980s model, with two tone markings, a white upper body and a yellow skirting. It had a Portuguese registration plate.
The suspect had access to this van from at least April 2007 until sometime after May 2007. It was used in and around the area of Praia da Luz.
We believe he was living in this van for days, possibly weeks, and may have been using it on 3 May 2007.
We are appealing for anyone who may have seen it in or around Praia da Luz on 3 May, the night Madeleine went missing, the days before, or weeks following the disappearance.
The second vehicle is a 1993 British Jaguar, model XJR 6, with a German number plate and registered in Germany.
This car is believed to have been in the Praia da Luz and surrounding areas in 2006 and 2007. The car was originally registered in the suspect’s name. On 4 May 2007, the day after Madeleine’s disappearance, the car was re-registered to someone else in Germany.
To re-register the car in Germany you don’t have to have the car in the country or region. We believe the car was still in Portugal and would like information if you saw it.
The Met is asking if anyone saw these cars together or individually during the spring and summer of 2007. Both of these vehicles are now held by the German authorities.
Detectives are also appealing for information about two mobile phone numbers, one of which is believed to have been used by the suspect on the day of Madeleine’s disappearance.
The first number is +351 912 730 680. Extensive enquiries have led investigators to believe the suspect was using this number and received a call, starting at 7.32pm and finishing at 8.02pm on 3 May 2007. This call was received in the area of Praia da Luz.
The second mobile number is +351 916 510 683. This number is the phone number that made this call. We know the person was not in the area of Praia da Luz.
Investigators believe the person who made this call is a highly significant witness and are appealing for them to get in touch.
The Operation Grange team is also asking anyone if they recognise these numbers. Did you ever call them? Do you have them in your phone, an old phone or your electronic contacts?
At 7.15pm UK time on Wednesday, 3 June, the Bundeskriminalamt (BKA) will also broadcast an appeal on German channel ZDF.
There is a £20,000 Met reward for information leading to the conviction of the person or persons responsible for the disappearance of Madeleine McCann
Detective Chief Inspector Mark Cranwell, who leads Operation Grange, said:
“It’s more than 13 years since Madeleine went missing and none of us can imagine what it must be like for her family, not knowing what happened or where she is.
“Following the ten- year anniversary, the Met received information about a German man who was known to have been in and around Praia da Luz. We have been working with colleagues in Germany and Portugal and this man is a suspect in Madeleine’s disappearance.
“The Met conducted a number of enquiries and in November 2017 engaged with the BKA who agreed to work with the Met.
“Since then a huge amount of work has taken place by both the Met, the BKA and the Polícia Judiciária.
“While this male is a suspect we retain an open mind as to his involvement and this remains a missing person inquiry.
“Our job as detectives is to follow the evidence, maintain an open mind and establish what happened on that day in May 2007.
“Please contact us without delay so we can get answers for Madeleine’s family.”
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Stuart Cundy said:
“Madeleine’s disappearance has attracted huge international interest. We are appealing for the public to help us establish what happened.
“We are committed to do everything we can to establish what happened and to find Madeleine.”
Speaking in support of yesterday’s appeal, Kate and Gerry McCann said:
“We welcome the appeal yesterday regarding the disappearance of our daughter, Madeleine.
“We would like to thank the police forces involved for their continued efforts in the search for Madeleine.
“All we have ever wanted is to find her, uncover the truth and bring those responsible to justice. We will never give up hope of finding Madeleine alive but whatever the outcome may be, we need to know, as we need to find peace.
“We will be making no further comment regarding the appeal.
“We would like to thank the general public for their ongoing support and encourage anyone who has information directly related to the appeal, to contact the police. Thank you.”
The Operation Grange incident room can be contacted via 0207 321 9251 or operation.grange@met.police.uk
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What did you think Holly?
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What did you think Holly?
It's still available on BKA website:
https://www.bka.de/DE/IhreSicherheit/Fahndungen/Personen/BekanntePersonen/43_Jaehriger_Deutscher_TV/Sachverhalt.html
https://www.bka.de/DE/Presse/Listenseite_Pressemitteilungen/2020/Presse2020/200603_pmZeugenaufrufStABraunschweig.html
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It's still available on BKA website:
https://www.bka.de/DE/IhreSicherheit/Fahndungen/Personen/BekanntePersonen/43_Jaehriger_Deutscher_TV/Sachverhalt.html
https://www.bka.de/DE/Presse/Listenseite_Pressemitteilungen/2020/Presse2020/200603_pmZeugenaufrufStABraunschweig.html
I found this especially pertinent.
“ While this male is a suspect we retain an open mind as to his involvement and this remains a missing person inquiry.
Our job as detectives is to follow the evidence, maintain an open mind and establish what happened on that day in May 2007.”
Hardly the ‘concrete evidence’ mantra so beloved by Wolter.
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I found this especially pertinent.
“ While this male is a suspect we retain an open mind as to his involvement and this remains a missing person inquiry.
Our job as detectives is to follow the evidence, maintain an open mind and establish what happened on that day in May 2007.”
Hardly the ‘concrete evidence’ mantra so beloved by Wolter.
That’s from the Met’s appeal not the Germans’ is it not?
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I found this especially pertinent.
“ While this male is a suspect we retain an open mind as to his involvement and this remains a missing person inquiry.
Our job as detectives is to follow the evidence, maintain an open mind and establish what happened on that day in May 2007.”
Hardly the ‘concrete evidence’ mantra so beloved by Wolter.
Yes I picked up on that.
When I think of all the people around that night, eg T9, JW, Rasta Man, Dr T, Smiths, Moyes etc, etc, none of whom observed the two highly distinctive vehicles appealed about and yet bland little white vans driven by Geoffrey Barrington and the Romanians failed to slip under the radar.
As soon as I heard the appeal I thought this isn't going anywhere.
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Yes I picked up on that.
When I think of all the people around that night, eg T9, JW, Rasta Man, Dr T, Smiths, Moyes etc, etc, none of whom observed the two highly distinctive vehicles appealed about and yet bland little white vans driven by Geoffrey Barrington and the Romanians failed to slip under the radar.
As soon as I heard the appeal I thought this isn't going anywhere.
What sort of car were your suspects driving and where was it parked that evening?
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What sort of car were your suspects driving and where was it parked that evening?
Hire car which I assume was parked up in that dark recess by 5A.
https://images.app.goo.gl/coFJHXMxH7Hekzyu7
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Hire car which I assume was parked up in that dark recess by 5A.
https://images.app.goo.gl/coFJHXMxH7Hekzyu7
who noticed it and what did it look like?
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who noticed it and what did it look like?
Who noticed Mrs Fenn's car?
The Spanish couple who were visiting the man's sister opposite 5A observed a car in the car park.
Jenny Murat said she noticed a hire car driven the wrong way.
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/15261405.algarve-resident-tells-of-car-sighting-near-madeleine-mccann-apartment/
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Who noticed Mrs Fenn's car?
The Spanish couple who were visiting the man's sister opposite 5A observed a car in the car park.
Jenny Murat said she noticed a hire car driven the wrong way.
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/15261405.algarve-resident-tells-of-car-sighting-near-madeleine-mccann-apartment/
What day and time was Jenny’s sighting?
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Yes I picked up on that.
When I think of all the people around that night, eg T9, JW, Rasta Man, Dr T, Smiths, Moyes etc, etc, none of whom observed the two highly distinctive vehicles appealed about and yet bland little white vans driven by Geoffrey Barrington and the Romanians failed to slip under the radar.
As soon as I heard the appeal I thought this isn't going anywhere.
what about this signting?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-453015/Sniffer-dogs-tracked-Maddy-supermarket.html
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Hire car which I assume was parked up in that dark recess by 5A.
https://images.app.goo.gl/coFJHXMxH7Hekzyu7
How did your suspects smuggle Madeleine out of the country in a hire car?
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what about this signting?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-453015/Sniffer-dogs-tracked-Maddy-supermarket.html
Are you encouraging me to indulge in what you described as a "fantasy"?
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How did your suspects smuggle Madeleine out of the country in a hire car?
What obstacles existed?
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Are you encouraging me to indulge in what you described as a "fantasy"?
Where did I do that a propos the link I posted?
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What obstacles existed?
The need to return the car. Where did they do this? Do you think when they hired the car they did so knowing they were going to kidnap a child in advance?
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Back to the opening post and thread title, the significance is over stated imo, the BKA along with OG are stumped OG keep an open mind and obviously don't/didn't expect any startling revelation to emerge.Its still not set in stone that a stranger abduction occurred from 5a.
“While this male is a suspect we retain an open mind as to his involvement and this remains a missing person inquiry.
“Our job as detectives is to follow the evidence, maintain an open mind and establish what happened on that day in May 2007.
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Back to the opening post and thread title, the significance is over stated imo, the BKA along with OG are stumped OG keep an open mind and obviously don't/didn't expect any startling revelation to emerge.Its still not set in stone that a stranger abduction occurred from 5a.
“While this male is a suspect we retain an open mind as to his involvement and this remains a missing person inquiry.
“Our job as detectives is to follow the evidence, maintain an open mind and establish what happened on that day in May 2007.
I think Holly was asking what was the significance of the appeal for information being removed from the Met’s website, unless I have misunderstood?
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Where did I do that a propos the link I posted?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11834.msg630458#msg630458
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Back to the opening post and thread title, the significance is over stated imo, the BKA along with OG are stumped OG keep an open mind and obviously don't/didn't expect any startling revelation to emerge.Its still not set in stone that a stranger abduction occurred from 5a.
“While this male is a suspect we retain an open mind as to his involvement and this remains a missing person inquiry.
“Our job as detectives is to follow the evidence, maintain an open mind and establish what happened on that day in May 2007.
IMO OG don't sound overly committed to this line of investigation, but as the saying goes, leave no stone unturned.
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The need to return the car. Where did they do this? Do you think when they hired the car they did so knowing they were going to kidnap a child in advance?
Afaik the contents of the witnesses' statement hasn't been verified so going on all the info provided and my own research it isn't clear where the witness and her husband were living at the time. It appears they had connections with UK and Belgium via a job. As Belgium is within Schengen what difficulties presented in travelling between Portugal and Belgium or any other country within Schengen?
Assuming they hired a car , as per wit stat, they could leave anywhere for collection either within Portugal or outside.
With regard to your last question I assume at the time they arrived in Portugal they were oblivious to MM.
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IMO OG don't sound overly committed to this line of investigation, but as the saying goes, leave no stone unturned.
Play your cards close to the chest and don't lie about having a series of Aces up your sleeve ~ unless that's where you keep your High court judges.
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11834.msg630458#msg630458
Sorry but what has this got to do with the link to the news report from early May 2007 of a couple who saw a dark coloured saloon style car parked close to the supermarket and spot where Madeleine's trail went cold as far as the sniffer dogs were concerned?
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Afaik the contents of the witnesses' statement hasn't been verified so going on all the info provided and my own research it isn't clear where the witness and her husband were living at the time. It appears they had connections with UK and Belgium via a job. As Belgium is within Schengen what difficulties presented in travelling between Portugal and Belgium or any other country within Schengen?
Assuming they hired a car , as per wit stat, they could leave anywhere for collection either within Portugal or outside.
With regard to your last question I assume at the time they arrived in Portugal they were oblivious to MM.
I wonder if the police investigated car rental agency bookings post 3rd May?
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Play your cards close to the chest and don't lie about having a series of Aces up your sleeve ~ unless that's where you keep your High court judges.
To use your card analogy, a main strategy is 'bluffing' - unless you happen to be playing Happy Families
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I think Holly was asking what was the significance of the appeal for information being removed from the Met’s website, unless I have misunderstood?
Seems the goalposts have shifted somewhat to the assumption that the Policia Judicairia didn't bother to check out hire cars and other vehicles in the area.
They did.
And some of that information is in the files.
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I wonder if the police investigated car rental agency bookings post 3rd May?
You would hope so but if it wasn't done until OG kicked in unlikely such data still existed.
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IMO OG don't sound overly committed to this line of investigation, but as the saying goes, leave no stone unturned.
DCI Mark Cranwell didn't come over well in his appeal/interview with Martin Brunt imo.
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To use your card analogy, a main strategy is 'bluffing' - unless you happen to be playing Happy Families
The assumption that the police should be publishing all the information they hold about an active case on the internet reduces me to paroxysms of laughter.
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DCI Mark Cranwell didn't come over well in his appeal/interview with Martin Brunt imo.
Vid at the bottom of the link in post:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11633.msg605920#msg605920
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You would hope so but if it wasn't done until OG kicked in unlikely such data still existed.
I would have thought car rental agencies kept records going back some years, but what do I know.
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Sorry but what has this got to do with the link to the news report from early May 2007 of a couple who saw a dark coloured saloon style car parked close to the supermarket and spot where Madeleine's trail went cold as far as the sniffer dogs were concerned?
Bumping in the hope of a response from Holly.
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The assumption that the police should be publishing all the information they hold about an active case on the internet reduces me to paroxysms of laughter.
The public appeals 13 years after the event make me hoot. The Met has received millions of tax payers' money to investigate and then turns to the public on a fishing expedition.
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Bumping in the hope of a response from Holly.
I must have misunderstood I thought you were doubting my claim that you referred to my theory as a fantasy. Or that was my interpretation anyway.
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I would have thought car rental agencies kept records going back some years, but what do I know.
We're talking 6 years by the time MET started to investigate.
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Bumping in the hope of a response from Holly.
We discussed the article you uploaded fairly recently. Potentially very relevant imo.
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We discussed the article you uploaded fairly recently. Potentially very relevant imo.
it kind of flies in the face of your earlier observation that no witnesses had come forward with a sighting of one of these distinctive vehicles. Surely a dark coloured saloon is a potential match for the Jag?
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We're talking 6 years by the time MET started to investigate.
How many years before hire companies destroy their records then? I have records for my business going back to when I started it over seven years ago for example.
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I must have misunderstood I thought you were doubting my claim that you referred to my theory as a fantasy. Or that was my interpretation anyway.
The clue was in the bit where I stipulated “a propos of the link I posted”.
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The clue was in the bit where I stipulated “a propos of the link I posted”.
Clueless!
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How many years before hire companies destroy their records then? I have records for my business going back to when I started it over seven years ago for example.
I don't see why records would be retained linking hirers to vehicles 6 years down the road? 6 years assumes OG were on to it straight away.
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it kind of flies in the face of your earlier observation that no witnesses had come forward with a sighting of one of these distinctive vehicles. Surely a dark coloured saloon is a potential match for the Jag?
I think a Brit would refer to such a vehicle as a Jag.
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How many years before hire companies destroy their records then? I have records for my business going back to when I started it over seven years ago for example.
Companies can keep records as long as they wish. I worked for a multi-national oil company and their records went back to when they arrived in the UK in the 1980's to gather North Sea oil. All stored with an archive company at great expense.
Legally financial records should be kept for 6 years in the UK as HMRC can investigate up to 6 years ago. But. If they find a discrepancy within those 6 years resulting in an underpayment of tax they can assume the same discrepancy existed previously and demand the back tax they assume you owe. If you've destroyed your records you can't prove they're wrong.
Companies can keep records as long as they wish. I worked for a multi-national oil company and their records went back to when they arrived in the UK to gather North Sea oil. All stored with an archive company at great expense.
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Companies can keep records as long as they wish. I worked for a multi-national oil company and their records went back to when they arrived in the UK in the 1980's to gather North Sea oil. All stored with an archive company at great expense.
Legally financial records should be kept for 6 years in the UK as HMRC can investigate up to 6 years ago. But. If they find a discrepancy within those 6 years resulting in an underpayment of tax they can assume the same discrepancy existed previously and demand the back tax they assume you owe. If you've destroyed your records you can't prove they're wrong.
Companies can keep records as long as they wish. I worked for a multi-national oil company and their records went back to when they arrived in the UK to gather North Sea oil. All stored with an archive company at great expense.
Hire co's will obviously keep records for a period of time to pursue fines for traffic violations but they will also need to be mindful of data protection ie personal data caputured at point of hire. There's maintaining records on hire vehicles and maintaining details of hirer and then linking the two. No reason for hire company to retain the last two indef. Hire co's usually have a high turnover of vehicles due to high mileage.
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Clueless!
Don't be so hard on yourself.
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I think a Brit would refer to such a vehicle as a Jag.
That's a gross assumption to make. They were Irish anyway.
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Hire co's will obviously keep records for a period of time to pursue fines for traffic violations but they will also need to be mindful of data protection ie personal data caputured at point of hire. There's maintaining records on hire vehicles and maintaining details of hirer and then linking the two. No reason for hire company to retain the last two indef. Hire co's usually have a high turnover of vehicles due to high mileage.
It's all speculation isn't it? If a car hired by Mr & Mrs X for a week's stay in PdL during the first week in May 2007 was then extended for a further week or more and returned in say Brussels three weeks later then that would be very interesting wouldn't it?
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Play your cards close to the chest and don't lie about having a series of Aces up your sleeve ~ unless that's where you keep your High court judges.
don't lie about having a series of Aces up your sleeve
Who do you mean Wolt.
HomeNewsUK NewsMadeleine Mccann
Madeleine McCann prosecutors 'have ace up their sleeve to nail prime suspect'
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don't lie about having a series of Aces up your sleeve
Who do you mean Wolt.
HomeNewsUK NewsMadeleine Mccann
Madeleine McCann prosecutors 'have ace up their sleeve to nail prime suspect'
Wolt never said that
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don't lie about having a series of Aces up your sleeve
Who do you mean Wolt.
HomeNewsUK NewsMadeleine Mccann
Madeleine McCann prosecutors 'have ace up their sleeve to nail prime suspect'
'Ace up their sleeve' implies cheating. Surely they don't intend 'fitting him up'
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Wolt never said that
I’m sure the prosecutor will pull an ace from up his sleeve and have more than we know so far.”
Well it seems you always refer to it in your posts [ace] - doesn't it mean stuff that is not yet exposed to the public etc
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I’m sure the prosecutor will pull an ace from up his sleeve and have more than we know so far.”
Well it seems you always refer to it in your posts [ace] - doesn't it mean stuff that is not yet exposed to the public etc
That isnt Wolters speaking...im quite confident he does have concrete evidence
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'Ace up their sleeve' implies cheating. Surely they don't intend 'fitting him up'
You never know they could be waiting for it seems - a confession to his pad mate.
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That isnt Wolters speaking...im quite confident he does have concrete evidence
Strange how he is saying Maddie is dead - surely I believe to say that you would have to have a body.
German prosecutor says there is 'some evidence' Madeleine McCann was killed by new suspect. ... Hans Christian Wolters said police do not have enough “hard evidence” that Christian Brückner abducted Madeleine.8 Jun 2020
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Strange how he is saying Maddie is dead - surely I believe to say that you would have to have a body.
German prosecutor says there is 'some evidence' Madeleine McCann was killed by new suspect. ... Hans Christian Wolters said police do not have enough “hard evidence” that Christian Brückner abducted Madeleine.8 Jun 2020
Rui Pedro Teixeira Mendonça
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rui_Pedro_Teixeira_Mendon%C3%A7a
On 1 September 1998, 13 police forces raided alleged members of an international child pornography ring known as the Wonderland Club. The operation was code-named Operation Cathedral and resulted in the confiscation of 750,000 images and videos depicting 1,263 different children. Mendonça was among the few children (16 only) that could be identified.[3] However, his whereabouts remain unknown and police suspect that he was murdered by his abductors after being abused on camera for other members of the paedophile ring.[12][13]
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Rui Pedro Teixeira Mendonça
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rui_Pedro_Teixeira_Mendon%C3%A7a
On 1 September 1998, 13 police forces raided alleged members of an international child pornography ring known as the Wonderland Club. The operation was code-named Operation Cathedral and resulted in the confiscation of 750,000 images and videos depicting 1,263 different children. Mendonça was among the few children (16 only) that could be identified.[3] However, his whereabouts remain unknown and police suspect that he was murdered by his abductors after being abused on camera for other members of the paedophile ring.[12][13]
If Wolter had photographs or videos of a dead Madeleine surely the humane thing would be to tell her parents they have them? Do you really think he or SY would let the parents retain hope if it was futile?
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Rui Pedro Teixeira Mendonça
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rui_Pedro_Teixeira_Mendon%C3%A7a
On 1 September 1998, 13 police forces raided alleged members of an international child pornography ring known as the Wonderland Club. The operation was code-named Operation Cathedral and resulted in the confiscation of 750,000 images and videos depicting 1,263 different children. Mendonça was among the few children (16 only) that could be identified.[3] However, his whereabouts remain unknown and police suspect that he was murdered by his abductors after being abused on camera for other members of the paedophile ring.[12][13]
This is utterly sickening. But the Paedophilia always is.
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If Wolter had photographs or videos of a dead Madeleine surely the humane thing would be to tell her parents they have them? Do you really think he or SY would let the parents retain hope if it was futile?
The evidence hasn't been shared with SY. As I recall Wolters has said he thinks the parents would not want to jeapordise the investigation.
I might be wrong but Wolters has made 3 pointers as to this is what he may have
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The evidence hasn't been shared with SY. As I recall Wolters has said he thinks the parents would not want to jeapordise the investigation.
I might be wrong but Wolters has made 3 pointers as to this is what he may have
the parents would not want to jeapordise the investigation.
Well, I think your wrong surely for god sake the mcc would want to know if he could prove Maddie was dead.
How can he justify having that evidence yet is not producing it till he can prove it was CB - what if that never happens.
Is he saying I think I have proof that Maddie is dead but will only divulge it if I can prove CB is the murderer?
You can't really prove a murder without a body IMO anyway,
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The evidence hasn't been shared with SY. As I recall Wolters has said he thinks the parents would not want to jeapordise the investigation.
I might be wrong but Wolters has made 3 pointers as to this is what he may have
Could you post a link to any case anywhere in the world where a police force has ‘concrete evidence’ that a child is dead and haven’t told their parents at the first opportunity?
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Could you post a link to any case anywhere in the world where a police force has ‘concrete evidence’ that a child is dead and haven’t told their parents at the first opportunity?
He's told the parents they have concrete evidence of death.... I think it would be inhuman for him to say that if he didn't have it....another reason why I think he does
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the parents would not want to jeapordise the investigation.
Well, I think your wrong surely for god sake the mcc would want to know if he could prove Maddie was dead.
How can he justify having that evidence yet is not producing it till he can prove it was CB - what if that never happens.
Is he saying I think I have proof that Maddie is dead but will only divulge it if I can prove CB is the murderer?
You can't really prove a murder without a body IMO anyway,
April Jones.
Also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_murder_convictions_without_a_body
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the parents would not want to jeapordise the investigation.
Well, I think your wrong surely for god sake the mcc would want to know if he could prove Maddie was dead.
How can he justify having that evidence yet is not producing it till he can prove it was CB - what if that never happens.
Is he saying I think I have proof that Maddie is dead but will only divulge it if I can prove CB is the murderer?
You can't really prove a murder without a body IMO anyway,
There are plenty of no body murder convictions. That's fact not opinion
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And let’s not forget Joana Cipriano.
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And let’s not forget Joana Cipriano.
Kizzy thinks her murder cannot be proven as there's no body
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Kizzy thinks her murder cannot be proven as there's no body
Interesting though I sometimes think Kizzy writes the first thought that comes into her head. No offence Kizzy, but really that was a pretty dumb thing to say.
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There are plenty of no body murder convictions. That's fact not opinion
Not in Germany .
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Not in Germany .
I doubt that is a complete list...
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Not in Germany .
Does this case from 2005 not count then?
Farmer last seen driving from another home, where he had been drinking. Rupp's family and the boyfriend of one of his daughters were found guilty of his murder despite the absence of any evidence and numerous contradictions in the testimonies of the accused; the lack of a body was explained as the accused dismembering and feeding it to the victim's dogs. However, Rupp's car was fished out of the Danube in February 2009, with his body still in the driving seat and no sign of foul play. Another man, Ludwig H., had been charged with stealing Rupp's vehicle.
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I doubt that is a complete list...
Can you find another.
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Does this case from 2005 not count then?
Farmer last seen driving from another home, where he had been drinking. Rupp's family and the boyfriend of one of his daughters were found guilty of his murder despite the absence of any evidence and numerous contradictions in the testimonies of the accused; the lack of a body was explained as the accused dismembering and feeding it to the victim's dogs. However, Rupp's car was fished out of the Danube in February 2009, with his body still in the driving seat and no sign of foul play. Another man, Ludwig H., had been charged with stealing Rupp's vehicle.
Look further it was a miscarriage, I posted details some time ago.
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He's told the parents they have concrete evidence of death.... I think it would be inhuman for him to say that if he didn't have it....another reason why I think he does
No, he told the world that Madeleine was dead.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11781226/madeleine-mccann-latest-news-dead-update/
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There are plenty of no body murder convictions. That's fact not opinion
Does this case from 2005 not count then?
Is one plenty.
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He's told the parents they have concrete evidence of death.... I think it would be inhuman for him to say that if he didn't have it....another reason why I think he does
Yet you don't believe Amaral when he say's/said she is dead, how can one be wrong and one be right.
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Yet you don't believe Amaral when he say's/said she is dead, how can one be wrong and one be right.
No IMO Davel has always believed she is deceased.
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No IMO Davel has always believed she is deceased.
I would say by far most likely... And I also believe the McCanns would agree
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I would say by far most likely... And I also believe the McCanns would agree
Have you actually spoken to them yet?
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Look further it was a miscarriage, I posted details some time ago.
Irrelevant. A murder conviction was secured without a body.
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That's a gross assumption to make. They were Irish anyway.
Jags are iconic cars readily identifiable by most and certainly Brits and Irish.
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It's all speculation isn't it? If a car hired by Mr & Mrs X for a week's stay in PdL during the first week in May 2007 was then extended for a further week or more and returned in say Brussels three weeks later then that would be very interesting wouldn't it?
Yes it would be interesting if it was followed up in a timely manner but we know there's no such info in PJ files. Hire car companies would be unable to impart such info to the private detective agencies working on behalf of Mc's due to data prot regulations so we're back to OG some 6 years on by which time unlikely records still exist.
If my suspects hired a car at the start of the hol, as claimed, they may have returned as agreed and hired elsewhere on the basis they wanted to travel to Belgium by car. Numerous permutations exist.
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Kizzy thinks her murder cannot be proven as there's no body
Without a body the evidence has to be compelling. In the case of April Jones her DNA was found in Bridger's cottage. If MM's DNA was found in CB's vehicles or properties he would have been charged.
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He's told the parents they have concrete evidence of death.... I think it would be inhuman for him to say that if he didn't have it....another reason why I think he does
Where's the evidence HCW has told the Mc's MM is dead?
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There are plenty of no body murder convictions. That's fact not opinion
Yes with other compelling evidence which the case against CB lacks.
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Yes with other compelling evidence which the case against CB lacks.
Not according to Wolters it doesn't
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Where's the evidence HCW has told the Mc's MM is dead?
He's announced it to the whole world... That includes the parents
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Without a body the evidence has to be compelling. In the case of April Jones her DNA was found in Bridger's cottage. If MM's DNA was found in CB's vehicles or properties he would have been charged.
Wolters has already said no dna in the vehicles
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Yes it would be interesting if it was followed up in a timely manner but we know there's no such info in PJ files. Hire car companies would be unable to impart such info to the private detective agencies working on behalf of Mc's due to data prot regulations so we're back to OG some 6 years on by which time unlikely records still exist.
If my suspects hired a car at the start of the hol, as claimed, they may have returned as agreed and hired elsewhere on the basis they wanted to travel to Belgium by car. Numerous permutations exist.
If your suspects are the same ones as before I thought the female gave a statement in the UK to UK police on 8th May 2007?
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Not according to Wolters it doesn't
Has HCW visited soc, interviewed Mc's/T9 or even read through the files?
HCW's claims are at odds with MET, Mc's and PJ.
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Has HCW visited soc, interviewed Mc's/T9 or even read through the files?
HCW's claims are at odds with MET, Mc's and PJ.
SY have said they are working very very closely with the Germans... Hardly at odds... But Wolters has not shared his evidence
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Jags are iconic cars readily identifiable by most and certainly Brits and Irish.
It’s still a gross assumption that every British or Irish person would describe it as a Jag rather than a saloon car.
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If your suspects are the same ones as before I thought the female gave a statement in the UK to UK police on 8th May 2007?
Yes. Nothing preventing the female taking the Eurostar or Easy Jet back to UK with MM remaining in Belgium or elsewhere with the male.
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It’s still a gross assumption that every British or Irish person would describe it as a Jag rather than a saloon car.
Its a reasonable assumption imo that a Brit or Irish person would be able to identify a Jag and describe it as such and not have to default to a saloon car.
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SY have said they are working very very closely with the Germans... Hardly at odds... But Wolters has not shared his evidence
The MET are still working on the basis of a missing person.
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The MET are still working on the basis of a missing person.
Because they don't have definitive evidence of death.. As I believe the Germans do. From a logical point of view the chances of Maddie being alive are infinitesimally small
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Its a reasonable assumption imo that a Brit or Irish person would be able to identify a Jag and describe it as such and not have to default to a saloon car.
It’s still an assumption. You claimed at the start of this thread that no witnesses had come forward with a sighting that matched either of thr two vehicles on the Met’s appeal. I have demonstrated that that claim is false whether you accept it or not.
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Because they don't have definitive evidence of death.. As I believe the Germans do. From a logical point of view the chances of Maddie being alive are infinitesimally small
So you think BKA have definitive evidence MM is deceased but haven't shared with MET?
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So you think BKA have definitive evidence MM is deceased but haven't shared with MET?
Thats basically what Wolters has said. Cressida Dick confirmed the Germans haven't shared all the evidence
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It’s still an assumption. You claimed at the start of this thread that no witnesses had come forward with a sighting that matched either of thr two vehicles on the Met’s appeal. I have demonstrated that that claim is false whether you accept it or not.
You've demonstrated no such thing.
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Thats basically what Wolters has said. Cressida Dick confirmed the Germans haven't shared all the evidence
"I'm sure they're sharing the relevant things at the relevant times with us," Dame Cressida said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55181357
If BKA had definitive evidence MM is deceased then I'm sure it would be considered relevant.
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Hans Christian Wolters, who is leading the case, yesterday said he could not share key evidence with Scotland Yard officers or police in Portugal.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8424065/amp/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-told-letter-written-German-prosecutors-dead.html
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"I'm sure they're sharing the relevant things at the relevant times with us," Dame Cressida said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55181357
If BKA had definitive evidence MM is deceased then I'm sure it would be considered relevant.
See above you are obviously wrong. I think you've missed quite a bit of information... Good idea to read the whole article
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Hans Christian Wolters, who is leading the case, yesterday said he could not share key evidence with Scotland Yard officers or police in Portugal.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8424065/amp/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-told-letter-written-German-prosecutors-dead.html
The article is dated 15th June 2020 and the Mc's refute receiving such a letter.
http://findmadeleine.com/updates/index.html
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The article is dated 15th June 2020 and the Mc's refute receiving such a letter.
http://findmadeleine.com/updates/index.html
Wolters said he sent the letter via SY and SY failed to deliver it
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Well, they've never found her body so there's still hope.
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He's announced it to the whole world... That includes the parents
Read that back to yourself....the parents of a missing child ( if you believe the narrative ) found out that there is concrete evidence that their daughter is dead at the same time as the rest of the world.
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You've demonstrated no such thing.
Yes I have.
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Well, they've never found her body so there's still hope.
I have reported your post as idiotic and offensive. April’s parents laid to rest 17 bone fragments from April’s body and are without hope of ever seeing their daughter alive again. Don’t use dead children to try and be funny, it’s really not a good look.
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Wolters said he sent the letter via SY and SY failed to deliver it
Not what SY say.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8440359/Scotland-Yard-deny-theyve-failed-hand-letters-Madeleine-McCanns-parents.html
‘Amid the war of words between British and German police, a spokesman for the Met said this afternoon: 'The Met received one letter from the Bundeskriminalamt (BKA) on June 12, which was passed to the family.
'The letter did not state that there was evidence or proof that Madeleine is dead - the Met continue to investigate Madeleine’s disappearance as a missing person investigation. No letter has been received by the Met from the German prosecutor'.
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I have reported your post as idiotic and offensive. April’s parents laid to rest 17 bone fragments from April’s body and are without hope of ever seeing their daughter alive again. Don’t use dead children to try and be funny, it’s really not a good look.
Wasn't that meant to be: "Well, they've never found her [Madeleine's] body so there's still hope"?
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what about this signting?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-453015/Sniffer-dogs-tracked-Maddy-supermarket.html
I think that is very interesting VS.
This happened at 8.30pm, which is exactly the time that Kate and Gerry would be walking in a Southerly direction from their flat to the Tapas restaurant. This car was driving in a northerly direction along exactly the same road ... and Kate and Gerry would suddenly appear coming in a southerly direction.
Face to Face.
Another report described how the black saloon car suddenly backed up into a side road and IIRC turned round with haste to go off in the opposite direction.
Could the occupants of this car have been the abductor and his assistant moving into place, but frightened off??
I am doing this from memory, but the second report was on here recently.
Well spotted VS
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I think that is very interesting VS.
This happened at 8.30pm, which is exactly the time that Kate and Gerry would be walking in a Southerly direction from their flat to the Tapas restaurant. This car was driving in a northerly direction along exactly the same road ... and Kate and Gerry would suddenly appear coming in a southerly direction.
Face to Face.
Another report described how the black saloon car suddenly backed up into a side road and IIRC turned round with haste to go off in the opposite direction.
Could the occupants of this car have been the abductor and his assistant moving into place, but frightened off??
I am doing this from memory, but the second report was on here recently.
Well spotted VS
CB's car wasnt /isn't black so it weren't his.
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CB's car wasnt /isn't black so it weren't his.
It could easily have been mistaken for black at 8.30 pm. If it wasn’t his, whose was it? Did anyone bother to check?
In this picture of the car (circulated by the Met) it looks black to me, what colour does it look to you?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/04/madeleine-mccann-praia-da-luz-christian-bruckner-strongest-suspect-yet
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Brückner’s ex-girlfriend describes his jaguar as “black” in this article
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/madeleine-mccann-suspect-broke-british-18400181
Do you think she remembered the article I linked to from 2007 about the black saloon car and decided to lie about the colour of his car in the hope that some internet sleuth would link the two descriptions or is it possible she just remembered it as black?
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From another interview another account
One Brit, who was 14 at the time, said: “I remember his black Jaguar being there but never saw the camper van there.”
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-suspect-christian-brueckner-22140677
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The Daily Express describes a black jaguar
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-express/20200612/281917365317933
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BUMPED
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-453015/Sniffer-dogs-tracked-Maddy-supermarket.html
I think that is very interesting VS.
This happened at 8.30pm, which is exactly the time that Kate and Gerry would be walking in a Southerly direction from their flat to the Tapas restaurant. This car was driving in a northerly direction along exactly the same road ... and Kate and Gerry would suddenly appear coming in a southerly direction.
Face to Face.
Another report described how the black saloon car suddenly backed up into a side road and IIRC turned round with haste to go off in the opposite direction.
Could the occupants of this car have been the abductor and his assistant moving into place, but frightened off??
I am doing this from memory, but the second report was on here recently.
Well spotted VS
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BUMPED
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-453015/Sniffer-dogs-tracked-Maddy-supermarket.html
As there’s never, as far as I can remember, been an appeal for the people in the car to come forward I think it would be safe to disregard the sighting.
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As there’s never, as far as I can remember, been an appeal for the people in the car to come forward I think it would be safe to disregard the sighting.
Is it my imagination, or did Amarals crew seem to be a bit picky about who and what they investigated ?
All to do with concentrating on pinning it on the Mccanns, I wonder ?
Just my thoughts.
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As there’s never, as far as I can remember, been an appeal for the people in the car to come forward I think it would be safe to disregard the sighting.
How utterly complacent.
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Is it my imagination, or did Amarals crew seem to be a bit picky about who and what they investigated ?
All to do with concentrating on pinning it on the Mccanns, I wonder ?
Just my thoughts.
He had to investigate all scenarios Sadie. It is well known that most abductions involve family members. If you were the lead detective on the case as Gonc was and you found inconsistencies in the group's accounts wouldn't you be suspicious?
Be honest please.
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He had to investigate all scenarios Sadie. It is well known that most abductions involve family members. If you were the lead detective on the case as Gonc was and you found inconsistencies in the group's accounts wouldn't you be suspicious?
Be honest please.
"Gonc?" Could this be a Slur I have to wonder.
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what about this signting?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-453015/Sniffer-dogs-tracked-Maddy-supermarket.html
That would appear to rule Bruckner out somewhat given he didn't have a black car.
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"Gonc?" Could this be a Slur I have to wonder.
Hardly (ty6e[
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"Gonc?" Could this be a Slur I have to wonder.
Lovable nickname,isn't it ?{)(**
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That would appear to rule Bruckner out somewhat given he didn't have a black car.
Not really, as I go on to explain.
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Lovable nickname,isn't it ?{)(**
And so very apt.
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He had to investigate all scenarios Sadie. It is well known that most abductions involve family members. If you were the lead detective on the case as Gonc was and you found inconsistencies in the group's accounts wouldn't you be suspicious?
Be honest please.
Inconsistencies possibly caused by the way the statements were taken. The main evidence against the McCanns was the dog alerts according to the PJ... That sums up their incompetence to me
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Is it my imagination, or did Amarals crew seem to be a bit picky about who and what they investigated ?
All to do with concentrating on pinning it on the Mccanns, I wonder ?
Just my thoughts.
If it was important I’m sure OG, the PJ or BKA would have picked it up and put out an appeal.
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If it was important I’m sure OG, the PJ or BKA would have picked it up and put out an appeal.
Unless it was properly investigated there's no way of knowing whether or not it was important. It certainly doesn't seem like the PJ investigated it, but given that OG and the BKA have appealed for information on anyone who saw a saloon car in the area at the time let's hope these witnesses have seen the appeal and got in touch directly wrt to what they saw. I doubt either OG or the BKA would issue a statement ruling out this piece of information so can only guess at its significance or otherwise.