UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Innominate on June 08, 2017, 08:10:32 AM
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As far as I understand people staying in the apartments are only given one front door key, which is of an unusual design.
The security of the other keys, held by staff, is one obvious consideration.
Leaving that aside the other consideration is how secure was the key held by the holiday makers?
One, or the other, of each couple would go and check on the children (and Diane Webster was instructed to return to the apartment after the alarm was raised).
There is a small detail which does not seem to get mentioned in the statements: the passing of the single key between the occupants who want to access each apartment.
In David Payne's rogatory he states:
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485 "How did it lock, and''
Reply "Yes.'
1485 "Was it secure''
Reply "Err you needed, yeah once the door was shut, you know you needed the keys to, you know to gain entry err into the apartment. Err I can't remember whether we ever had, you know whether you can deadlock it so that you could get in and out with the door open, but essentially you needed the key you know, to use, if I remember to gain access into the, err into the apartment, and you know generally it was difficult because there was, you know we'd ask about more than one key, there was the only one key to the apartment so during the day time you know we left the key under the, the err there was a mat err outside, err you know that you wipe your feet on, and err you know that's, that's basically how we gained entry into it during the day time.'
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If the McCanns did not secure their front door key, and used a similar method to the Paynes then a potential stranger entry to the apartment would have been quick and easy.
The obvious flaw is that the McCanns did not disclose whether they did store the front door key outside the apartment.
See also "Madeleine McCann - The locks to apartment 5a"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1207.msg32131#msg32131
172
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Ah, the phantom mat lifter. Have we had any sightings of him or her ?
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As far as I understand people staying in the apartments are only given one front door key, which is of an unusual design.
The security of the other keys, held by staff, is one obvious consideration.
Leaving that aside the other consideration is how secure was the key held by the holiday makers?
One, or the other, of each couple would go and check on the children (and Diane Webster was instructed to return to the apartment after the alarm was raised).
There is a small detail which does not seem to get mentioned in the statements: the passing of the single key between the occupants who want to access each apartment.
In David Payne's rogatory he states:
---
485 "How did it lock, and''
Reply "Yes.'
1485 "Was it secure''
Reply "Err you needed, yeah once the door was shut, you know you needed the keys to, you know to gain entry err into the apartment. Err I can't remember whether we ever had, you know whether you can deadlock it so that you could get in and out with the door open, but essentially you needed the key you know, to use, if I remember to gain access into the, err into the apartment, and you know generally it was difficult because there was, you know we'd ask about more than one key, there was the only one key to the apartment so during the day time you know we left the key under the, the err there was a mat err outside, err you know that you wipe your feet on, and err you know that's, that's basically how we gained entry into it during the day time.'
----
If the McCanns did not secure their front door key, and used a similar method to the Paynes then a potential stranger entry to the apartment would have been quick and easy.
The obvious flaw is that the McCanns did not disclose whether they did store the front door key outside the apartment.
Or perhaps they were never asked. Why would it even occur to them to mention it - if it was something they never did ?
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The only reference I can recall to the front door key to 5a was that on the night Maddie disappeared it was left on the kitchen counter, what they did with it during the day is anyone's guess. A reconstruction would have cleared this point up too imo.
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As far as I understand people staying in the apartments are only given one front door key, which is of an unusual design.
The security of the other keys, held by staff, is one obvious consideration.
Leaving that aside the other consideration is how secure was the key held by the holiday makers?
One, or the other, of each couple would go and check on the children (and Diane Webster was instructed to return to the apartment after the alarm was raised).
There is a small detail which does not seem to get mentioned in the statements: the passing of the single key between the occupants who want to access each apartment.
In David Payne's rogatory he states:
---
485 "How did it lock, and''
Reply "Yes.'
1485 "Was it secure''
Reply "Err you needed, yeah once the door was shut, you know you needed the keys to, you know to gain entry err into the apartment. Err I can't remember whether we ever had, you know whether you can deadlock it so that you could get in and out with the door open, but essentially you needed the key you know, to use, if I remember to gain access into the, err into the apartment, and you know generally it was difficult because there was, you know we'd ask about more than one key, there was the only one key to the apartment so during the day time you know we left the key under the, the err there was a mat err outside, err you know that you wipe your feet on, and err you know that's, that's basically how we gained entry into it during the day time.'
----
If the McCanns did not secure their front door key, and used a similar method to the Paynes then a potential stranger entry to the apartment would have been quick and easy.
The obvious flaw is that the McCanns did not disclose whether they did store the front door key outside the apartment.
The key is not of a particularly unusual design.
It's called a cruciform lock, among other names.
http://united-locksmith.net/blog/what-is-a-cruciform-lock
You can find "how to" guides, on line, on picking them !
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The only reference I can recall to the front door key to 5a was that on the night Maddie disappeared it was left on the kitchen counter, what they did with it during the day is anyone's guess. A reconstruction would have cleared this point up too imo.
Does anyone have an idea where this reference would be?
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Does anyone have an idea where this reference would be?
That was why Gerry couldn't have used the front door on the 9pm check as the key had been left in the kitchen.
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The key is not of a particularly unusual design.
It's called a cruciform lock, among other names.
http://united-locksmith.net/blog/what-is-a-cruciform-lock
You can find "how to" guides, on line, on picking them !
Not an unusual design?
Well I have never seen one and have lived nearly 80 years
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Russell mentions using Matt's keys on the Sunday night, but not why he was checking when Matt was in the apartment. Note how his memory of the McCann apartment improves after a year! He is also contradicting Gerry's testimony.
- Because he is asked, states that he went to the apartment of the McCann couple once but does not remember if he was asked to go or went of his own accord. He furthers that he did not know if the glass sliding doors were locked or not but that probably Gerry told him on this night to enter his apartment to check on the children.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN.htm
On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s. I had taken Matt’s keys and I believe that their door was deadlocked the same as ours and that I would have needed to turn the key two times. We kept our shutters down, and the patio door was closed I am not sure whether theirs was the same. I recall that Kate and Gerry’s apartment was accessed by the patios door which was left closed and unlocked. I recall that their front door was accessed from the car-park access was easily gained to the apartment from the poolside.
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
That they left the house by the main door, that he was sure he locked, it being that the rear door was also closed and locked. They were the first to arrive at the TAPAS where everyone showed up except only for MATHEW, who was still ill. Though his wife RACHEL showed up for dinner.........every half-hour the deponent or KATE went, alternately, to the apartment to confirm that all was well with the children. On that day only the deponent and his wife entered the apartment. He is sure that they always entered through the front door, not knowing [how] to show [demonstrate] that they locked it with a key.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
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Not an unusual design?
Well I have never seen one and have lived nearly 80 years
I must admit I have never come across one like that either before looking at this case, maybe they are uniquely Portuguese?
Depicted below is the same style of lock used on the front door of apt 5a. Photo on right shows the style of key used.
(http://www.chavesareeiro.pt/portals/13/imagens/produtos/fechaduras/fechadura_de_4_entradas_02.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/37dV4ds.jpg?1)
Below are Portuguese Police photos depicting the actual locks fitted to apartment 5a in May 2007.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg)
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Another reference thread.
See also "Madeleine McCann - The locks to apartment 5a"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1207.msg32131#msg32131
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Feast your eyes folks:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cruciform+lock&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiMgPacnq7UAhVDrRoKHVkVBzwQ7AkIQQ&biw=1366&bih=657
http://www.ikon.de/en/site/ikon/about-us/brand-ikon/ [look under products]
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The key is not of a particularly unusual design.
It's called a cruciform lock, among other names.
http://united-locksmith.net/blog/what-is-a-cruciform-lock
You can find "how to" guides, on line, on picking them !
No need for that as far as 5A was concerned. Previous occupants of the apartment found it was not possible to prevent entry to a person using a key, despite taking pains to prevent it.
Therefore had the apartment been in lockdown during the 3rd May it seems that entry was still possible. I wonder why that should have been?
Could it suggest that contrary to Madeleine being a specific target ... might it have been the next child of similar age and appearance resident in that apartment who would have disappeared from it.
Snip
We noticed that the cleaning personnel entered the apartment after one knock and did not give us time to respond. This was a bit bothersome and for this reason we would lock the door, and would leave the key in the inside lock.
After this precaution, the next day, the same thing happened and the cleaning woman entered even though the door was locked with the key in the lock.
We never found out how it was possible for a cleaning woman to enter after we had tried to prevent it.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLO-D_AMBROSIO.htm
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Feast your eyes folks:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cruciform+lock&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiMgPacnq7UAhVDrRoKHVkVBzwQ7AkIQQ&biw=1366&bih=657
http://www.ikon.de/en/site/ikon/about-us/brand-ikon/ [look under products]
Did you ever find the type of latch. I looked without success.
(feel stupid now that I see John found it earlier.) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8288.msg411731#msg411731
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No need for that as far as 5A was concerned. Previous occupants of the apartment found it was not possible to prevent entry to a person using a key, despite taking pains to prevent it.
Therefore had the apartment been in lockdown during the 3rd May it seems that entry was still possible. I wonder why that should have been?
Could it suggest that contrary to Madeleine being a specific target ... might it have been the next child of similar age and appearance resident in that apartment who would have disappeared from it.
Snip
We noticed that the cleaning personnel entered the apartment after one knock and did not give us time to respond. This was a bit bothersome and for this reason we would lock the door, and would leave the key in the inside lock.
After this precaution, the next day, the same thing happened and the cleaning woman entered even though the door was locked with the key in the lock.
We never found out how it was possible for a cleaning woman to enter after we had tried to prevent it.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLO-D_AMBROSIO.htm
Easy old stuff with one of these:
"Double cylinder anti lockout lock" and it looks like this:
http://www.saundersonsecurity.co.uk/acatalog/info_E_DZ_31_31_NP.html
There are innocent explanations for most things.
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Cruciform keys are common in Portugal, and we had one on several visits to Spain.
Therefore, there is a common need for replacement keys. Which in turn means there is a common need for a cruciform key cutter.
On line, it appears to be more commonly referred to as a cross key, and technically as an E111 key cutter.
It retails for a little over €300.
Where is the nearest key cutter to the OC? Look a little further up the high street (Rua Direita) and there is an odds-and-ends shop that does key cutting now.
Did it do cruciform key cutting in 2007? I don't know, nor do I care. I have no doubt that 7-8 mins away in Lagos there would have been a cruciform key cutter in 2007, given that the key type is so common.
From what I can see re the cleaners' statements, they were given keys at the start of the day and handed them back at the end of the day. I could not find any requirement to hand them back if they went off-site during a lunch break.
Key control appears to have been a weak security point. MW staff would place cots in the apartments of MW clients who needed them, so they must have been given access to keys.
That makes the people with access to keys as - OC 24hr reception, cleaners, repair men, MW staff placing cots, staff doing check-ins on the MW bus from Faro to the OC.
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Cruciform keys are common in Portugal, and we had one on several visits to Spain.
Therefore, there is a common need for replacement keys. Which in turn means there is a common need for a cruciform key cutter.
On line, it appears to be more commonly referred to as a cross key, and technically as an E111 key cutter.
It retails for a little over €300.
Where is the nearest key cutter to the OC? Look a little further up the high street (Rua Direita) and there is an odds-and-ends shop that does key cutting now.
Did it do cruciform key cutting in 2007? I don't know, nor do I care. I have no doubt that 7-8 mins away in Lagos there would have been a cruciform key cutter in 2007, given that the key type is so common.
From what I can see re the cleaners' statements, they were given keys at the start of the day and handed them back at the end of the day. I could not find any requirement to hand them back if they went off-site during a lunch break.
Key control appears to have been a weak security point. MW staff would place cots in the apartments of MW clients who needed them, so they must have been given access to keys.
That makes the people with access to keys as - OC 24hr reception, cleaners, repair men, MW staff placing cots, staff doing check-ins on the MW bus from Faro to the OC.
Taking it from the top: part of the objective of the business is to provide accommodation. Keys are handed out to perfect strangers as a function of that business i.e the people who are your customers.
Do we know for certain there was a not sign /sign out procedure for tradespersons ?
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Cruciform keys are common in Portugal, and we had one on several visits to Spain.
Therefore, there is a common need for replacement keys. Which in turn means there is a common need for a cruciform key cutter.
On line, it appears to be more commonly referred to as a cross key, and technically as an E111 key cutter.
It retails for a little over €300.
Where is the nearest key cutter to the OC? Look a little further up the high street (Rua Direita) and there is an odds-and-ends shop that does key cutting now.
Did it do cruciform key cutting in 2007? I don't know, nor do I care. I have no doubt that 7-8 mins away in Lagos there would have been a cruciform key cutter in 2007, given that the key type is so common.
From what I can see re the cleaners' statements, they were given keys at the start of the day and handed them back at the end of the day. I could not find any requirement to hand them back if they went off-site during a lunch break.
Key control appears to have been a weak security point. MW staff would place cots in the apartments of MW clients who needed them, so they must have been given access to keys.
That makes the people with access to keys as - OC 24hr reception, cleaners, repair men, MW staff placing cots, staff doing check-ins on the MW bus from Faro to the OC.
Thank you SIL.
Let us not forget that somewhere we have learned that one of the OC staff (a maintenance man? Cant rermember) lost some OC keys.
Nor should we ignore the fact that someone could have easily cast a new key uising a toy soldier lead casting kit. As a kid I used to watch a schoolboy friend regularly cast dozens of soldiers
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Taking it from the top: part of the objective of the business is to provide accommodation. Keys are handed out to perfect strangers as a function of that business i.e the people who are your customers.
Do we know for certain there was a not sign /sign out procedure for tradespersons ?
We don't need to do the fandango.
Most hotels etc. use key cards because they provide better security. The access code gets changed when a customer checks out. The point is the OC used old-fashioned physical keys that are as cheap as chips to copy.
What to do when one gets lost? Just cut a copy.
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Thank you SIL.
Let us not forget that somewhere we have learned that one of the OC staff (a maintenance man? Cant rermember) lost some OC keys.
Nor should we ignore the fact that someone could have easily cast a new key uising a toy soldier lead casting kit. As a kid I used to watch a schoolboy friend regularly cast dozens of soldiers
Re bold. No we most certainly have not. That is a myth. The PJ Files contains not a single mention of the loss of keys to block 5.
The origin of this myth is a tabloid report perhaps 7 years on, where someone who admits to disliking the man (Tiago da Silva?) decides to fit him up with a tale of him losing all the keys to block 5.
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Re bold. No we most certainly have not. That is a myth. The PJ Files contains not a single mention of the loss of keys to block 5.
The origin of this myth is a tabloid report perhaps 7 years on, where someone who admits to disliking the man (Tiago da Silva?) decides to fit him up with a tale of him losing all the keys to block 5.
Not sure about losing keys but there is a statement in the files from an OC Garden handyman who stated that the keys were readily accessible to staff at any time.
MIGUEL GONCALVES DA COSTA PALMA - Maintenance Worker
The keys to the living quarters and apartments that are under the responsibility of the Ocean Club, and are kept inside a safe in the Maintenance Garage, the access code to the safe is known by all maintenance workers.
The keys are only taken from the safe when it is necessary to carry out a service, in this case a service request exists, which is registered in the name of the maintenance worker and indicates the time spent and which is given to the Director of Maintenance Services, Mrs. Silvia.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MIGUEL-PALMA.htm
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Thank you SIL.
Let us not forget that somewhere we have learned that one of the OC staff (a maintenance man? Cant rermember) lost some OC keys.
Nor should we ignore the fact that someone could have easily cast a new key uising a toy soldier lead casting kit. As a kid I used to watch a schoolboy friend regularly cast dozens of soldiers
A bit soft, at least they wouldn't need a furnace.
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A bit soft, at least they wouldn't need a furnace.
Yep, soft and malleable, but frazed up they would easily do a one off door unlock if the lock was in good oiled condition imo
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We don't need to do the fandango.
Most hotels etc. use key cards because they provide better security. The access code gets changed when a customer checks out. The point is the OC used old-fashioned physical keys that are as cheap as chips to copy.
What to do when one gets lost? Just cut a copy.
That's all fine and dandy but Apartment 5A was not part of an hotel. It was privately owned.
I am not into fandangos old stick. New Fangled Tangos were more my bag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akZm0rU-UnE
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That's all fine and dandy but Apartment 5A was not part of an hotel. It was privately owned.
I am not into fandangos old stick. New Fangled Tangos were more my bag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akZm0rU-UnE
It definitely wasn't part of 'an hotel' (sic) or a hotel.
It had a key that was old technology and easy and cheap to copy.
The rest is unimportant.
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It definitely wasn't part of 'an hotel' (sic) or a hotel.
It had a key that was old technology and easy and cheap to copy.
The rest is unimportant.
Why would anyone copy a key when they can buy one of these ?:
https://www.sks.co.uk/locksmith-tools/lock-picks/cruciform-picks.
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Why would anyone copy a key when they can buy one of these ?:
https://www.sks.co.uk/locksmith-tools/lock-picks/cruciform-picks.
Personally, I'd nip up to the store and cough up the €5 to 10€ for a copy that opens the lock in zero seconds, but that is just me. Perhaps you would prefer to fumble at the door for however long.
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The door latch is designed not to allow the door to blow shut and lock yourself out without the key. To close the door from the outside you need the key. So if Madeleine left by the front door she only had to pull the latch open and leave. But the door could not be shut behind her. So if it was shut properly when Kate did her check someone had closed it from the inside after Madeleine had left. That sequence is pretty dam important.
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Personally, I'd nip up to the store and cough up the €5 to 10€ for a copy that opens the lock in zero seconds, but that is just me. Perhaps you would prefer to fumble at the door for however long.
How did you obtain the original key from which the copy was cut ?
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The door latch is designed not to allow the door to blow shut and lock yourself out without the key. To close the door from the outside you need the key. So if Madeleine left by the front door she only had to pull the latch open and leave. But the door could not be shut behind her. So if it was shut properly when Kate did her check someone had closed it from the inside after Madeleine had left. That sequence is pretty dam important.
The first lock is on a spring so it can be closed from the outside by simply pulling it shut and it could blow shut. To double lock it, a key is required. Whether single locked or double locked, a key is required outside to open the door.
If the first lock was not on a spring then the credit card trick could not be used (Amaral's obstacle in that method was a strategically placed screw).
No doubt Alice will correct me if I'm wrong from an 'ospitable 'otel in 'arrow.
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The door latch is designed not to allow the door to blow shut and lock yourself out without the key. To close the door from the outside you need the key. So if Madeleine left by the front door she only had to pull the latch open and leave. But the door could not be shut behind her. So if it was shut properly when Kate did her check someone had closed it from the inside after Madeleine had left. That sequence is pretty dam important.
Indeed it is very important.
BUT we must accept that Kate is telling the truth and that the keys are a fantastic get out of jail card if you are into that story.
Keys? what about the whoosing,slaming doors and abductors climbing in and out of windows? Are we assuming Kate is making that bit up?
please note the question mark at the end of that sentence I am asking a question not stating facts...
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How did you obtain the original key from which the copy was cut ?
Who had access to the keys in the OC? Try Panorama, 3 May 2017. Not rocket science.
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Who had access to the keys in the OC? Try Panorama, 3 May 2017. Not rocket science.
I asked you. Either you can answer or you can't. I take it you can't.
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I asked you. Either you can answer or you can't. I take it you can't.
R15 of this thread, I already did.
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Indeed it is very important.
BUT we must accept that Kate is telling the truth and that the keys are a fantastic get out of jail card if you are into that story.
Keys? what about the whoosing,slaming doors and abductors climbing in and out of windows? Are we assuming Kate is making that bit up?
please note the question mark at the end of that sentence I am asking a question not stating facts...
Did Kate see an abductor? No she didn't but she turned the findings ("the whoosing,slaming doors") that she encountered and constructed that into a hypothesis - an alleged abductor (AA) that used the window for exit. I can see why she said the window now for if Tannerman was the abductor and he left via the front door there is no way for him to lock that door behind him, and the front door wasn't found open.
Since Gerry and Jez were outside the steps she must have discounted the AA using the patio door because of Gerry and Jez' presence on the road.
But in actual fact Kate didn't know about Tannerman at that stage, but the logic still applies. As Kate found all gates and doors closed at her check she must have discounted the AA using the patio door and the gates.
OK in hindsight I don't think her diagnosis was perfect.
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Did Kate see an abductor? No she didn't but she turned the findings ("the whoosing,slaming doors") that she encountered and constructed that into a hypothesis - an alleged abductor (AA) that used the window for exit. I can see why she said the window now for if Tannerman was the abductor and he left via the front door there is no way for him to lock that door behind him, and the front door wasn't found open.
Since Gerry and Jez were outside the steps she must have discounted the AA using the patio door because of Gerry and Jez' presence on the road.
But in actual fact Kate didn't know about Tannerman at that stage, but the logic still applies. As Kate found all gates and doors closed at her check she must have discounted the AA using the patio door and the gates.
OK in hindsight I don't think her diagnosis was perfect.
I pronounce the H in hypothesis.
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Did Kate see an abductor? No she didn't but she turned the findings ("the whoosing,slaming doors") that she encountered and constructed that into a hypothesis - an alleged abductor (AA) that used the window for exit. I can see why she said the window now for if Tannerman was the abductor and he left via the front door there is no way for him to lock that door behind him, and the front door wasn't found open.
Since Gerry and Jez were outside the steps she must have discounted the AA using the patio door because of Gerry and Jez' presence on the road.
But in actual fact Kate didn't know about Tannerman at that stage, but the logic still applies. As Kate found all gates and doors closed at her check she must have discounted the AA using the patio door and the gates.
OK in hindsight I don't think her diagnosis was perfect.
I dont agree about not being able to shut the front door. I have shut doors with a somewhat similar locking mechanism by pulling it sharply closed using the key. When pulled to, it needed a key to unlock it and get in again.
However, I can see how Kate might have been mistaken about that, being probably non-technical
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Did Kate see an abductor? No she didn't but she turned the findings ("the whoosing,slaming doors") that she encountered and constructed that into a hypothesis - an alleged abductor (AA) that used the window for exit. I can see why she said the window now for if Tannerman was the abductor and he left via the front door there is no way for him to lock that door behind him, and the front door wasn't found open.
Since Gerry and Jez were outside the steps she must have discounted the AA using the patio door because of Gerry and Jez' presence on the road.
But in actual fact Kate didn't know about Tannerman at that stage, but the logic still applies. As Kate found all gates and doors closed at her check she must have discounted the AA using the patio door and the gates.
OK in hindsight I don't think her diagnosis was perfect.
Soz, Rob, but Gerry and Jez were further down the road near the corner of the alleyway betwixt the Tapas area and the apartments. Watch Amarals latest video. He has the spot more or less spot on (according to Janes account on the Cutting Edge Video and Jezes hand drawn map and account.)
I agree with your logic about having found the gates and doors closed. Also maybe the fact that the patio area was lit by the street lamp opposite and in full view of the tapas group only 50 metres away may have been on her mind.
Amaral stated that no abductor would have used the patio door entrance with it being overlooked so closely by the family friends. For once, i agree with him.
I dont think that the patio door entrance was used by either an abductor, or by Madeleine on her own ... and neither was the window.
AIMHO
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Soz, Rob, but Gerry and Jez were further down the road near the corner of the alleyway betwixt the Tapas area and the apartments. Watch Amarals latest video. He has the spot more or less spot on (according to Janes account on the Cutting Edge Video and Jezes hand drawn map and account.)
I agree with your logic about having found the gates and doors closed. Also maybe the fact that the patio area was lit by the street lamp opposite and in full view of the tapas group only 50 metres away may have been on her mind.
Amaral stated that no abductor would have used the patio door entrance with it being overlooked so closely by the family friends. For once, i agree with him.
I dont think that the patio door entrance was used by either an abductor, or by Madeleine on her own ... and neither was the window.
AIMHO
So you told us all the places where she didn't exit, so does that just leave the front door? If the AA had a key to the apartment (how would they get that if they were targeting Madeleine?) then he could lock the front door behind him, but without the key the door had to be left open and that has not been described ass the case. So what is your explanation for the exit portal and if it was the front door how did it end up closed?
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The door latch is designed not to allow the door to blow shut and lock yourself out without the key. To close the door from the outside you need the key. So if Madeleine left by the front door she only had to pull the latch open and leave. But the door could not be shut behind her. So if it was shut properly when Kate did her check someone had closed it from the inside after Madeleine had left. That sequence is pretty dam important.
I thought the front door was a simple spring latch. Was there something special about the front door lock mechanism that prevented it blowing shut?
It is interesting that the key could be easily copied, although that does not prove what happened.
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I thought the front door was a simple spring latch. Was there something special about the front door lock mechanism that prevented it blowing shut?
It is interesting that the key could be easily copied, although that does not prove what happened.
There is the rectangular bit that isn't part of the spring latch
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Did Kate see an abductor? No she didn't but she turned the findings ("the whoosing,slaming doors") that she encountered and constructed that into a hypothesis - an alleged abductor (AA) that used the window for exit. I can see why she said the window now for if Tannerman was the abductor and he left via the front door there is no way for him to lock that door behind him, and the front door wasn't found open.
Since Gerry and Jez were outside the steps she must have discounted the AA using the patio door because of Gerry and Jez' presence on the road.
But in actual fact Kate didn't know about Tannerman at that stage, but the logic still applies. As Kate found all gates and doors closed at her check she must have discounted the AA using the patio door and the gates.
OK in hindsight I don't think her diagnosis was perfect.
Initially and for the press releases: Kate absolutely stated her daughter has been 'taken'/ abducted and implied the entry /exit was via the window. It was much later when they decided to mention about the doors being unlocked.
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It is also interesting as 'negative press' for the McCanns, brought up the whole window theory- it has been trashed by so many people, It has even been mentioned somewhere, Kate had got to thinking about it and mentioned it may have been a red herring(many years later). I mentioned this as being a Red Herring three days after the event on a few chat pages. 8)-)))
So if Kate thinks it is a red herring how did the abducter enter and exit the apartment... key or not to key? The parents left the doors unlocked. hmmm so woke and wandered is still on the cards then!
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Initially and for the press releases: Kate absolutely stated her daughter has been 'taken'/ abducted and implied the entry /exit was via the window. It was much later when they decided to mention about the doors being unlocked.
I don't think Kate 'implied' anything - she stated that she came in to find the bedroom window and shutters wide open and her daughter missing from her bed. In that first instant - it would have been abnormal of her - NOT to to immediately think that an intruder had entered via that window and removed Madeleine by the same route. What else would you expect any normal person to think when first confronted with that scene?
It could not have been a more normal reaction IMO and it was also completely normal for them to consider other possibilities later on - but certainly not in the severe trauma of the first few hours - or even the first few days.
AIMHO
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I don't think Kate 'implied' anything - she stated that she came in to find the bedroom window and shutters wide open and her daughter missing from her bed. In that first instant - it would have been abnormal of her - NOT to to immediately think that an intruder had entered via that window and removed Madeleine by the same route. What else would you expect any normal person to think when first confronted with that scene?
It could not have been a more normal reaction IMO and it was also completely normal for them to consider other possibilities later on - but certainly not in the severe trauma of the first few hours - or even the first few days.
AIMHO
Her first thought, like Gerry's was that MM may have gone into their bedroom. I don't know why, because it wasn't something they would have expected her to do;
He glanced into our room to make sure Madeleine hadn’t wandered in there......I went through to our bedroom to see if she’d got into our bed.
If Madeleine ever woke during the night it was always in the small hours, practically never earlier than two or three in the morning.
[Madeleine]
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There is the rectangular bit that isn't part of the spring latch
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg
Is that the rectangular bit on the bottom photo? Well spotted BTW.
This would appear to be a crucial factor. Are there any descriptions of this type of anti-slam mechanism on the internet?
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg
Is that the rectangular bit on the bottom photo? Well spotted BTW.
This would appear to be a crucial factor. Are there any descriptions of this type of anti-slam mechanism on the internet?
Here is a first for me, using the mouse to write text. I'm usually left handed but my mouse is in my right hand.
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg
Is that the rectangular bit on the bottom photo? Well spotted BTW.
This would appear to be a crucial factor. Are there any descriptions of this type of anti-slam mechanism on the internet?
http://www.chavesareeiro.pt/Produtos/Fechaduras/Fechadurasdechavede2e4entradas.aspx
Is it an [ censored word]lam shut device or a manual security bolt/shield?
It is not clear whether the snib end of the latch is flush with the end of the "bolt/shield". A "comic" would come in handy then we would know for sure.
Also we do not know whether or not the rectangular section bit [shield]moves independently of the spring latch. Either way, from inside, they are operated by the thumb slide.
Arrange for SiL to unscrew one and do a destructive analysis of it .. ?{)(**
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http://www.chavesareeiro.pt/Produtos/Fechaduras/Fechadurasdechavede2e4entradas.aspx
Is it an [ censored word]lam shut device or a manual security bolt/shield?
It is not clear whether the snib end of the latch is flush with the end of the "bolt/shield". A "comic" would come in handy then we would know for sure.
Also we do not know whether or not the rectangular section bit [shield]moves independently of the spring latch. Either way, from inside, they are operated by the thumb slide.
Arrange for SiL to unscrew one and do a destructive analysis of it .. ?{)(**
If the 5A lock is like this lock: http://www.chavesareeiro.pt/Produtos/Fechaduras/FechadurastipoYale.aspx
then it would appear this is a manual mechanism - rather than automatic.
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If the 5A lock is like this lock: http://www.chavesareeiro.pt/Produtos/Fechaduras/FechadurastipoYale.aspx
then it would appear this is a manual mechanism - rather than automatic.
I think that the lock was a single cylinder deadlock. That means it could be opened from inside by turning a kind of knob, but from the outside only with a key. The knob on the outside is for pulling it closed; it doesn't seem to do anything else. On the inside is a sort of knob on the lock. This is what you would use if answering the door.
So from the inside you got out by turning the knob thing, then just pulled it to with the outside door knob. For security the key could be inserted to activate the deadbolt. From the inside the deadbolt is applied by using a thumb turn.
However it's left the door can't be opened from the outside without a key. From the inside you just turn the knob unless the thumb turn has been used.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg)
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http://www.chavesareeiro.pt/Produtos/Fechaduras/Fechadurasdechavede2e4entradas.aspx
Is it an [ censored word]lam shut device or a manual security bolt/shield?
It is not clear whether the snib end of the latch is flush with the end of the "bolt/shield". A "comic" would come in handy then we would know for sure.
Also we do not know whether or not the rectangular section bit [shield]moves independently of the spring latch. Either way, from inside, they are operated by the thumb slide.
Arrange for SiL to unscrew one and do a destructive analysis of it .. ?{)(**
I was thinking as long as the key is inserted the " manual security bolt/shield" would move in unison with the spring latch allowing one to shut the door. In other words a draught could shut the door but the key is in the lock so the door can be reopened.
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I was thinking as long as the key is inserted the " manual security bolt/shield" would move in unison with the spring latch allowing one to shut the door. In other words a draught could shut the door but the key is in the lock so the door can be reopened.
Are you of the opinion that the rectangular part of the snib acts as an anti-slam device without involving the matter of the key? Clearly that is crucial in determining whether or not Madeleine wandered out that door on her own volition.
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So you told us all the places where she didn't exit, so does that just leave the front door? If the AA had a key to the apartment (how would they get that if they were targeting Madeleine?) then he could lock the front door behind him, but without the key the door had to be left open and that has not been described ass the case. So what is your explanation for the exit portal and if it was the front door how did it end up closed?
I dont think that Madeleine exited under her own steam at all. I think she was carried out .... but none of us were there ... and we cant be sure.
All the watching and the timing of Tannerman carrying a little girl so soon after Gerry left, make me think this was a planned and meticulously timed abduction. The safest time would be immediately after Gerry finished his check.
IMO, a watcher/ director was watching the comings and goings from the middle balcony opposite and the minute Gerry walked down the steps and through the bottom gate the watcher signalled the go ahead to the actual lifter/abductor.
Having signalled the go ahead he immediately went thru the building and via the back garden and back gate to the little parking area where a getaway vehicle was parked. The watcher / director was also the get-away driver AIMO.
The getaway failed because he spotted Gerry and Jez chatting on his route ... and also he spotted Jane T witnessing the abductor walking off with Madeleine. He scarpered, driving off down the road in a southerly direction leaving Tannerman in the lurch. IMO
All this is likely given the facts of watchers observed by others, fag ends on the balcony and the very position of the balcony immediately opposite 5A with its view of the immediate approach and exits, both back and friont. Also its direct view into 5A lounge, kitchen and maybe bathroom. It is likely, but as yet, as far as we know, it isn't fact.
OG might by now have proved that it is fact ... or they may not. We dont know.
But the perfectness of this scenario (until Gerry and Jane thwarted it), should be "left on the Table" .... and not dismissed as Gunit wishes.
AIMO
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My opinion is the unit is a bog standard combo dead lock and spring catch with nothing clever about it. The principle is the same everywhere just the detail varies from what folk may be used to.
A bit like this:
http://www.handleworld.co.uk/lock/Satin-Stainless-Steel/ES-LDB5525-SSS/
To avoid locking yourself out the convention is to mechanically hold the dead bolt and the spring catch disengaged not to have a chunk of metal extended beyond the striking plate to whack into the wood work to prevent the door slamming shut. In my house it's case of make sure the back is unlocked or the lead weighted stuffed toy cat is holding the door back when venturing out through the front without your key.
There's plenty of stuff on the net to go at about these locks and locks in general but if you want to invent a way to sustain a theory rather than know about how locks work then????
The lock fitted to the door of 5A could have had a Yale cylinder lock fitted instead the cruciform lock [see catalogue ref both qwerty and I posted earlier]. Had it been a Yale cylinder lock fitted I doubt this thread would exist.
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Here's a clearer view of the actual lock type fitted at Ocean Club. Notice that the cruciform lock has been changed for a newer mechanism with a modern key. This lock was fitted at apartment 6a. Photo dated June 2010.
All one has to do to open the door is to slide the lever horizontally with ones finger.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/fl/4948972979_9cf70904b8_z.jpg)
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/fl/4948973133_a102192c77_z.jpg)
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My opinion is the unit is a bog standard combo dead lock and spring catch with nothing clever about it. The principle is the same everywhere just the detail varies from what folk may be used to.
A bit like this:
http://www.handleworld.co.uk/lock/Satin-Stainless-Steel/ES-LDB5525-SSS/
To avoid locking yourself out the convention is to mechanically hold the dead bolt and the spring catch disengaged not to have a chunk of metal extended beyond the striking plate to whack into the wood work to prevent the door slamming shut. In my house it's case of make sure the back is unlocked or the lead weighted stuffed toy cat is holding the door back when venturing out through the front without your key.
There's plenty of stuff on the net to go at about these locks and locks in general but if you want to invent a way to sustain a theory rather than know about how locks work then????
The lock fitted to the door of 5A could have had a Yale cylinder lock fitted instead the cruciform lock [see catalogue ref both qwerty and I posted earlier]. Had it been a Yale cylinder lock fitted I doubt this thread would exist.
There is mention of the key in the statements and it wasn't a standard (Yale) key.
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I dont think that Madeleine exited under her own steam at all. I think she was carried out .... but none of us were there ... and we cant be sure.
All the watching and the timing of Tannerman carrying a little girl so soon after Gerry left, make me think this was a planned and meticulously timed abduction. The safest time would be immediately after Gerry finished his check.
IMO, a watcher/ director was watching the comings and goings from the middle balcony opposite and the minute Gerry walked down the steps and through the bottom gate the watcher signalled the go ahead to the actual lifter/abductor.
Having signalled the go ahead he immediately went thru the building and via the back garden and back gate to the little parking area where a getaway vehicle was parked. The watcher / director was also the get-away driver AIMO.
The getaway failed because he spotted Gerry and Jez chatting on his route ... and also he spotted Jane T witnessing the abductor walking off with Madeleine. He scarpered, driving off down the road in a southerly direction leaving Tannerman in the lurch. IMO
All this is likely given the facts of watchers observed by others, fag ends on the balcony and the very position of the balcony immediately opposite 5A with its view of the immediate approach and exits, both back and friont. Also its direct view into 5A lounge, kitchen and maybe bathroom. It is likely, but as yet, as far as we know, it isn't fact.
OG might by now have proved that it is fact ... or they may not. We dont know.
But the perfectness of this scenario (until Gerry and Jane thwarted it), should be "left on the Table" .... and not dismissed as Gunit wishes.
AIMO
I have no problem with your story Sadie as long as it's not presented as fact.
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Sadie you say "I think she was carried out ...." carried out of what? the window, the patio door, or the front door?
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Sadie you say "I think she was carried out ...." carried out of what? the window, the patio door, or the front door?
i think that Madeleine was carried out via the front door.
In by the front door and out thru the front door .... so easy and then she was passed over to Tannerman IMO. Either Tannermman or the lifter (someone that Madeleine knew in case she woke up) pulled the front door closed using the key, so no finger prints.
IMO, The fact that when the lifter picked Madeleine up, her head would have been on his right arm, but the little girl carried by Tannerman had her head on his left arm indicates that there was a passing over of her from the one persion to the other. However I accept that this is not proven (as far as we know) and it remains a theory.
With so many things pointing to the possibility that this theory is correct, it would , IMO, be a mistake to dismiss it as one half of this forum does.
And I wonder why? £5%4%
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i think that Madeleine was carried out via the front door.
In by the front door and out thru the front door .... so easy and then she was passed over to Tannerman IMO. Either Tannermman or the lifter (someone that Madeleine knew in case she woke up) pulled the front door closed using the key, so no finger prints.
IMO, The fact that when the lifter picked Madeleine up, her head would have been on his right arm, but the little girl carried by Tannerman had her head on his left arm indicates that there was a passing over of her from the one persion to the other. However I accept that this is not proven (as far as we know) and it remains a theory.
With so many things pointing to the possibility that this theory is correct, it would , IMO, be a mistake to dismiss it as one half of this forum does.
And I wonder why? £5%4%
Yet Sadie, not a jot of forensic evidence which has come to light, to show anyone else in the apartment.
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Yet Sadie, not a jot of forensic evidence which has come to light, to show anyone else in the apartment.
So you must be thinking that the AA happened from a position outside the apartment then.
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i think that Madeleine was carried out via the front door.
In by the front door and out thru the front door .... so easy and then she was passed over to Tannerman IMO. Either Tannermman or the lifter (someone that Madeleine knew in case she woke up) pulled the front door closed using the key, so no finger prints.
IMO, The fact that when the lifter picked Madeleine up, her head would have been on his right arm, but the little girl carried by Tannerman had her head on his left arm indicates that there was a passing over of her from the one persion to the other. However I accept that this is not proven (as far as we know) and it remains a theory.
With so many things pointing to the possibility that this theory is correct, it would , IMO, be a mistake to dismiss it as one half of this forum does.
And I wonder why? £5%4%
12kg to 16kg, assuming she was petite.
If you don't have a bad back, note one litre of water is one kg. So all you need is 2 x 6 litre bottles. Or 3 x 5 litre bottles.
If you manage that lot, I'm willing to consider Tannerman in a crane pose with 12 to 16kg in his hands.
Otherwise it is a no.
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Sadie - you say "In by the front door and out thru the front door .... so easy and then she was passed over to Tannerman IMO. Either Tannermman or the lifter (someone that Madeleine knew in case she woke up) pulled the front door closed using the key, so no finger prints."
So the intruder would have to have a key? Doesn't that suggest a local connection? If Madeleine was targeted the AA would have trouble getting a key if wasn't local.
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So you must be thinking that the AA happened from a position outside the apartment then.
Sorry Rob, I don't believe in the A.A. scenario.
Likewise i don't see the case being solved either.
Bar a confession.
IMHO of course.
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Sorry Rob, I don't believe in the A.A. scenario.
Likewise i don't see the case being solved either.
Bar a confession.
IMHO of course.
I agree re confession or someone breaking ranks...
I think the PJ missed the chance to put fear into the Tapas Group by arresting them seprately, and interviewing them seperately... it could have flagged up something interesting, and a possible break up of the group to speak freely, and the chance to back away from being charged with something and having their other children taken from them in the UK.
They were treated very differently, they got to attend police meetings etc - un heard of apparently. The more they worked the crowd with their AA story the more they became untochable. all in my opinion ofcourse.
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Sorry Rob, I don't believe in the A.A. scenario.
Likewise i don't see the case being solved either.
Bar a confession.
IMHO of course.
you might not but it seems both SY and the portuguese do
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So the intruder would have to have a key? Doesn't that suggest a local connection? If Madeleine was targeted the AA would have trouble getting a key if wasn't local.
Its clear from OG ruling out a burglary gone wrong no local's were involved imo.
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Its clear from OG ruling out a burglary gone wrong no local's were involved imo.
Indeed and with A huge life changing sum on offer at the begining, it was so strange no one came forward. I feel sure the local 'hoods' would have been contacted by the police, to put out feelers for bits of information as they do in this country. Some times there is plea barganing as protected witness.
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8()-000( 8**8:/:
They whole key issue is to try an make fit a scenario where there is no blame on the parents for leaving their children alone, in an unlocked apartment,
but an intruder/s entered the apartment via:
shutters-window
someone got a key made
someone stole a key
someone used a key- staff?
can we rule out a chimney?
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8()-000( 8**8:/:
They whole key issue is to try an make fit a scenario where there is no blame on the parents for leaving their children alone, in an unlocked apartment,
but an intruder/s entered the apartment via:
shutters-window
someone got a key made
someone stole a key
someone used a key- staff?
can we rule out a chimney?
the key issue is to get to the truth...you are wrong to think some of us simply want to protect the mccanns
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8()-000( 8**8:/:
They whole key issue is to try an make fit a scenario where there is no blame on the parents for leaving their children alone, in an unlocked apartment,
but an intruder/s entered the apartment via:
shutters-window
someone got a key made
someone stole a key
someone used a key- staff?
can we rule out a chimney?
I don't think we can involve Santa Claus but Walt Disney could tell a few tales.
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There is mention of the key in the statements and it wasn't a standard (Yale) key.
Had you read my posts properly you would realise that I was aware of that.
The issue I have is:
The frigging unit is a bog standard combo dead bolt and spring catch common all over the world
The dead bolt may be operated by varying locks. This one is a cruciform lock, as common as muck in Europe but the average person on this forum judging by ccomments, thinks such locks are rare having somekind of voodoo properties and deliberately fitted in properties in Portugal for nefarious reasons.
The spring catch is no different from any other external spring catch but because most people only look at spring catches on their sitting room doors have no idea of what an external spring catch looks like and how it is fabricated to comply with the standards; again the thinking seems to be it has magical properties because "I have never seen one like that before"
The facts in this instance are:
Provided MM could operate the thumb slide on the spring catch she could leave the apartment.
Unless the the spring catch were held permanently in the disengaged position she could have been locked out.
If a double cylinder anti-lock out lock operated the dead bolt, these are as common as muck throughout the world especially used on accommodation for vulnerable people. If one was fitted then a cleaner could gain access even you had if you had stuffed the key in the lock on the inside cos that's 'ow the bleedin' thing's supposed to work innit? If there isn't a double cylinder lock fitted then the tales of the cleaner etc are hookey.
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The door latch is designed not to allow the door to blow shut and lock yourself out without the key. To close the door from the outside you need the key. So if Madeleine left by the front door she only had to pull the latch open and leave. But the door could not be shut behind her. So if it was shut properly when Kate did her check someone had closed it from the inside after Madeleine had left. That sequence is pretty dam important.
No so Robby. Anyone leaving by the front door simply pulled it shut. To double lock it while inside required the bar to be slid across. We don't know if the double lock was engaged on the night Madeleine disappeared.
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Indeed and with A huge life changing sum on offer at the begining, it was so strange no one came forward. I feel sure the local 'hoods' would have been contacted by the police, to put out feelers for bits of information as they do in this country. Some times there is plea barganing as protected witness.
Re the laundry. Cuddle cat, pink blanket should have been offered up even to the UK police over there.
It is really strange that the 'planned AA' left the childs favorite toy on a shelf his/her DNA would have been all over it. I wonder why Kate carried it everywhere, until it got too smelly, and HAD to be washed...
I agree wrt the huge reward originally offered. Had there been the teeniest knowledge about her whereabouts I'm sure that information would have winged its way to the authorities. That is indeed the reason why Jenny Murat went to the bother to set up an information desk, where locals could inform without the risk of Bering exploited by the police. Nobody came forward then and not now, ten years later, which tends to point in one direction.
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A reminder, the topic is 'Apartment key'.
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You mean when they were caught out? @)(++(*
As for being taken, why did they search the apartment, the gardens and the nearby streets if she had been taken? Did they really expect everyone to believe someone went into their apartment and lifted Madeleine who quietly complied, took her outside and dumped her in a roadside dumpster?
Exactly and as I had pointd this out previously on an earlier thread last year, Did they really believe that an 'abductor' would hang about with a child waiting to be caught?
This leave some more possible theories
woke and wandered- fell down a 'well' of sorts
woke and wandered and was rescued by a passer by... maybe a good person or maybe a paedophile
woke and wandered was knocked down killed and body disposed of by frightened driver
woke and wandered hit and run' and left at side of road dying and found by tapas person
( who panicked as how would they explain this).
There is another two theories which I will not post.
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I have no problem with your story Sadie as long as it's not presented as fact.
I have presented it as theory, but it has a decent chance of being correct.
My main purpose Gunit was to show that several things that you have said were not correct.
You still haven'y conceded that a watcher on the balcony opposite could see the close approach to the front door and to then patio door. He could see Gerry leaving and signal to someone , a potential abductor, standing in the area just in front of the very hidden and dark friont door. A watcher could also signal to a potential abductor standing in the pathway in front of Madelindow.
he could also watch any of the parents as they came and went from the apartment etc.
When are you going to concede that a watcher could see all these places Gunit. It was YOU that challenged me and now I have proved it, you have gone quiet.
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I have presented it as theory, but it has a decent chance of being correct.
My main purpose Gunit was to show that several things that you have said were not correct.
You still haven'y conceded that a watcher on the balcony opposite could see the close approach to the front door and to then patio door. He could see Gerry leaving and signal to someone , a potential abductor, standing in the area just in front of the very hidden and dark friont door. A watcher could also signal to a potential abductor standing in the pathway in front of Madelindow.
he could also watch any of the parents as they came and went from the apartment etc.
When are you going to concede that a watcher could see all these places Gunit. It was YOU that challenged me and now I have proved it, you have gone quiet.
Sorry Sadie, but you haven't proved anything. Just added a theory, which is without any evidence.
I still belive the key is a worthless argument as a key did not have to be used. Door was left unlocked and the locked door didn't show a patern of Tapas passing on keys to each other for checks.
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Sorry Sadie, but you haven't proved anything. Just added a theory, which is without any evidence.
I still belive the key is a worthless argument as a key did not have to be used. Door was left unlocked and the locked door didn't show a patern of Tapas passing on keys to each other for checks.
A key doesn't have to be used to open it from the inside, but to close it behind you you need a key. Are you disputing this?
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I have presented it as theory, but it has a decent chance of being correct.
My main purpose Gunit was to show that several things that you have said were not correct.
You still haven'y conceded that a watcher on the balcony opposite could see the close approach to the front door and to then patio door. He could see Gerry leaving and signal to someone , a potential abductor, standing in the area just in front of the very hidden and dark friont door. A watcher could also signal to a potential abductor standing in the pathway in front of Madelindow.
he could also watch any of the parents as they came and went from the apartment etc.
When are you going to concede that a watcher could see all these places Gunit. It was YOU that challenged me and now I have proved it, you have gone quiet.
How does a person get onto the balcony that is in your photo Sadie? Isn't a balcony part of a private residence?
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A key doesn't have to be used to open it from the inside, but to close it behind you you need a key. Are you disputing this?
You must have some odd door locks in NZ.
You can simply pull the front door closed, in which case a key is required to get in. (Or a credit card.)
Or, in addition to pulling the front door closed, you can also use a key to extend the security bar.
We tend not to use the security bar if we are going out for short lengths of time. We do use it if we are going out for long periods. And we use it overnight when we are in.
Amaral had the door checked and allegedly found it could not be opened from the outside with a credit card, but I'm dubious about that if the security bar had not been deployed.
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You must have some odd door locks in NZ.
You can simply pull the front door closed, in which case a key is required to get in. (Or a credit card.)
Or, in addition to pulling the front door closed, you can also use a key to extend the security bar.
We tend not to use the security bar if we are going out for short lengths of time. We do use it if we are going out for long periods. And we use it overnight when we are in.
Amaral had the door checked and allegedly found it could not be opened from the outside with a credit card, but I'm dubious about that if the security bar had not been deployed.
is this credit card just something that posters have seen in films......surely there is an extension to the architrave which mekes the credit card myth impossible
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You must have some odd door locks in NZ.
You can simply pull the front door closed, in which case a key is required to get in. (Or a credit card.)
Or, in addition to pulling the front door closed, you can also use a key to extend the security bar.
We tend not to use the security bar if we are going out for short lengths of time. We do use it if we are going out for long periods. And we use it overnight when we are in.
Amaral had the door checked and allegedly found it could not be opened from the outside with a credit card, but I'm dubious about that if the security bar had not been deployed.
There was the video of the cleaners and they had to manually pull on the latch to close the door, it was simply slammed shut.
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No so Robby. Anyone leaving by the front door simply pulled it shut. To double lock it while inside required the bar to be slid across. We don't know if the double lock was engaged on the night Madeleine disappeared.
The cleaners in their interview had to manually pull the anti-slam device back to close the door, so I don't agree with you yet. Unless you have some other proof it can just be slammed shut, or pulled closed behind you without at least turning the door handle.
The double lock bolt was the square above the latch.
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Cons – its highly unlikely it will work! I have been out to a few jobs where the customer has tried to open their door with a credit card and the broken card is still wedged in the door when I arrive. A credit card could work on an internal door in a house to open a basic latch or cupboard lock etc as these doors can be thin. However, the main reason it won’t work on a main door lock is that the credit card is neither flexible or long enough. When a locksmith try’s to ‘slip’ open a Yale type lock they use special card called ‘mica card’ which is around double the length of a credit card and so flexible it can fold totally back on itself. This type of card is needed because to get to the latch on a Yale type lock, the card needs to be flexible enough to bend around 2 corners and travel into the frame (up 4 four inches) to reach the latch of the lock.
http://www.alcatraz-edinburghlocksmiths.co.uk/blog/open-a-locked-door-with-credit-card/
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How does a person get onto the balcony that is in your photo Sadie? Isn't a balcony part of a private residence?
The balcony is on a communal staircase.
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The cleaners in their interview had to manually pull the anti-slam device back to close the door, so I don't agree with you yet. Unless you have some other proof it can just be slammed shut, or pulled closed behind you without at least turning the door handle.
There isn't an 'anti-slam device'. You can just pull it closed from the outside.
There isn't a turnable door handle on the outside. It's a fixed door knob that you can use to pull the door closed.
I can't think of a house we have ever had with a turnable exterior door handle.
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A key doesn't have to be used to open it from the inside, but to close it behind you you need a key. Are you disputing this?
No, I am saying you need a key to get into the apartment via the locked door, so once the check has beem made and the person leaves and the door is locked [by what ever method] the next person would need the key if they were using the 'locked 'door. did they pass this key back and forth or did they use the unlocked door?
I am also saying that if the doors are left unlocked then there is no need for a key. There was no sign of any locks being 'picked'.
Hmm
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There isn't an 'anti-slam device'. You can just pull it closed from the outside.
There isn't a turnable door handle on the outside. It's a fixed door knob that you can use to pull the door closed.
I can't think of a house we have ever had with a turnable exterior door handle.
I pointed out the anti-slam device was pointed out to the forum
You can see the latch with the sloped leading edge. but behind that is the anti-slam device (longer rectangular metal block). It won't close till this is pulled back.
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I think that the lock was a single cylinder deadlock. That means it could be opened from inside by turning a kind of knob, but from the outside only with a key. The knob on the outside is for pulling it closed; it doesn't seem to do anything else. On the inside is a sort of knob on the lock. This is what you would use if answering the door.
So from the inside you got out by turning the knob thing, then just pulled it to with the outside door knob. For security the key could be inserted to activate the deadbolt. From the inside the deadbolt is applied by using a thumb turn.
However it's left the door can't be opened from the outside without a key. From the inside you just turn the knob unless the thumb turn has been used.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg)
Wrong for the latch part has been split into two parts. What you describe is the more simpler version without the anti-slam prevention.
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Are you of the opinion that the rectangular part of the snib acts as an anti-slam device without involving the matter of the key? Clearly that is crucial in determining whether or not Madeleine wandered out that door on her own volition.
I think the answer to your question was Yes. A key or turning the handle may pull this back, which doesn't happen if it is just pulled behind you. At the McCann residence the handle on the door is unrelated to the latch (at least 120 mm above it).
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By using the key in the lock to pull the front door closed, if Tannerman or an accomplice was the abductor, the door would latch. From the outside it would effectively be locked and a key would be needed to get in again. IMO .... but I haven't seen the actual lock and latch in action, so I cantg be sure.
If it acts like i think it does, by pulling the door closed using the key, the latch would engage.
That's right, you just pull the knob and it closes behind you. If you forget the key you're stuffed. To open it from the inside you simply slide the bar with your finger.
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I think the answer to your question was Yes. A key or turning the handle may pull this back, which doesn't happen if it is just pulled behind you. At the McCann residence the handle on the door is unrelated to the latch (at least 120 mm above it).
The knob is for pulling the door behind you, it does not turn, it has no other function. The McCanns never claimed nor denied that the double locking mechanism was ever engaged. If the door wasn't locked with the key from the inside any small child could have opened it by pulling the slide. You don't need a key to close the door.
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The knob is for pulling the door behind you, it does not turn, it has no other function. The McCanns never claimed nor denied that the double locking mechanism was ever engaged. If the door wasn't locked with the key from the inside any small child could have opened it by pulling the slide. You don't need a key to close the door.
Precisely.
It is more than likely Madeleine was able to get out of the apartment without any difficulty.
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Precisely.
It is more than likely Madeleine was able to get out of the apartment without any difficulty.
So I'll try again with a different tack,why is that scenario the least investigated one wonders?
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So I'll try again with a different tack,why is that scenario the least investigated one wonders?
Possibly because the McCann's would be held responsible.
IMO of course.
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The knob is for pulling the door behind you, it does not turn, it has no other function. The McCanns never claimed nor denied that the double locking mechanism was ever engaged. If the door wasn't locked with the key from the inside any small child could have opened it by pulling the slide. You don't need a key to close the door.
Take that a step further,no key is needed to shut the door,window alleged to be open,gust of wind slams bedroom door,possibly the front door as well?
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Precisely.
It is more than likely Madeleine was able to get out of the apartment without any difficulty.
The narrative which has been constantly pushed is that Maddie couldn't have got out on her own but those of us who can think outside of the box know that to be false.
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Take that a step further,no key is needed to shut the door,window alleged to be open,gust of wind slams bedroom door,possibly the front door as well?
I've never heard a mention of an open front door.
Plus, the children's window and the front door are on the same north face of 5A, so wind coming in one should have also been coming in the other. Plus, this wind surely should have being going to ... where?
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The narrative which has been constantly pushed is that Maddie couldn't have got out on her own but those of us who can think outside of the box know that to be false.
Indeed Angelo.
Those people who push that narrative, also know if Madeleine did get out of the apartment, then the McCann's hold responsibility.
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Take that a step further,no key is needed to shut the door,window alleged to be open,gust of wind slams bedroom door,possibly the front door as well?
That's right and leave Maddie locked outside.
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The narrative which has been constantly pushed is that Maddie couldn't have got out on her own but those of us who can think outside of the box know that to be false.
you should understand that others are perfectly capable of thinking outside the box
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I've never heard a mention of an open front door.
Plus, the children's window and the front door are on the same north face of 5A, so wind coming in one should have also been coming in the other. Plus, this wind surely should have being going to ... where?
Least path of resistance?
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I've never heard a mention of an open front door.
Plus, the children's window and the front door are on the same north face of 5A, so wind coming in one should have also been coming in the other. Plus, this wind surely should have being going to ... where?
"They were all sound asleep, windows shut, shutters shut," said Trish Cameron, Madeleine's aunt. "Kate went back at 10pm to check, the front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jammied open, and Madeleine was missing."
Trish Cameron, Timesonline 6/5/07
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The narrative which has been constantly pushed is that Maddie couldn't have got out on her own but those of us who can think outside of the box know that to be false.
you dont seem to have understood the narrative....for those of us that do understand the narrative it is unlikely that maddie left the apartment herself...but certainly possible
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I've never heard a mention of an open front door.
Plus, the children's window and the front door are on the same north face of 5A, so wind coming in one should have also been coming in the other. Plus, this wind surely should have being going to ... where?
Where it always goes the world over: from an area of high pressure to an area of low pressure.
The laws of physics and fluid mechanics see Daniel Bernoulli.
Air is a gas, a gas is a fluid.
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Where it always goes the world over: from an area of high pressure to an area of low pressure.
The laws of physics and fluid mechanics see Daniel Bernoulli.
Air is a gas, a gas is a fluid.
My first degree was in Physics, so I think I can work out that if air was coming in the kids bedroom window plus the front door, it had to be getting out somewhere else.
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My first degree was in Physics, so I think I can work out that if air was coming in the kids bedroom window plus the front door, it had to be getting out somewhere else.
but of course it doesnt have to......air can enter a space and not escape but simply increase the pressure...a liquid of course cannot
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The more important point is Brownian motion whereby surely any cadaver odour would be long gone in 3 months
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but of course it doesnt have to......air can enter a space and not escape but simply increase the pressure...a liquid of course cannot
Oh dear. Are we now to have a myth of wind entering from two points and simply increasing the pressure? %56&
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The more important point is Brownian motion whereby surely any cadaver odour would be long gone in 3 months
The thread title is 'apartment key'. Perhaps if you wish to raise the dogs v Brownian motion you would be kind enough to do it on one of the many dog threads.
8((()*/
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The knob is for pulling the door behind you, it does not turn, it has no other function. The McCanns never claimed nor denied that the double locking mechanism was ever engaged. If the door wasn't locked with the key from the inside any small child could have opened it by pulling the slide. You don't need a key to close the door.
So you have said, but I know these types of doors from the days I was a security guard going from building to building. These you can't just pull behind you to lock it again. I'm certain of that. I'll go down to the hardware store and check it out.
I agree that a small child could open it, but I dispute your concept of just pulling it to close it behind you.
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"They were all sound asleep, windows shut, shutters shut," said Trish Cameron, Madeleine's aunt. "Kate went back at 10pm to check, the front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jammied open, and Madeleine was missing."
Trish Cameron, Timesonline 6/5/07
With all due respect, Trish wasn't there.
Chinese whispers come to mind.
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With all due respect, Trish wasn't there.
Chinese whispers come to mind.
Maybe this is the missing element the front door was found open but it is too embarrassing to mention. In the Sky News reports a local also mentions the front door was open.
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Precisely.
It is more than likely Madeleine was able to get out of the apartment without any difficulty.
The aborted burglary/disturbed and wandered theory is a potential match.
But, there is a caveat.
If the door is so easy to open. Why didn't the parent secure it by deadlocking? Why overlook such an obvious risk?
KMcC states:
Before they left she took some precautions: put the medicine inside a bag with a clasp in her room inside the wardrobe or the dresser. These were Calpol (paracetamol) and Nurofen (Ibuprofen), for fevers and pains, both for adults and children (liquid form for children). In this bag there was also a small pair of scissors. In the kitchen were cutting elements used to prepare the meals and which were not put out of sight.
JT states:
“And the door, they couldn’t get out, we made sure they couldn’t, well from the point of Ella you know we made sure she couldn’t err not escape, because that sounds terrible, but you know she, the door was dead locked so she couldn’t have, she couldn’t have wandered off so I mean obviously there’s harm, you could say she could have done herself harm in the apartment anyway but from our own view of knowing Ella we thought you know she couldn’t, couldn’t come to any harm, and Evie was in her cot so couldn’t get out the cot, so.”
Why would the McCanns overlook such an obvious risk? They considered knives and medicine.
They state they cannot remember whether the door was deadlocked.
Why not?
When they came back after the alarm was raised they entered the apartment together, and shortly after they would have opened the front door.
There is only one key.
I'm surprised they cannot remember whether the door was deadlocked or not.
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The key was needed to open the front door from the outside, so for some reason they felt that was safe, but it was too easy to open from the inside. Even though they felt if Madeleine was going to come over to the Tapas she would use the patio door, so I suppose that reduced the likelihood of the front door being the door of choice for Madeleine to exit.
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My first degree was in Physics, so I think I can work out that if air was coming in the kids bedroom window plus the front door, it had to be getting out somewhere else.
I went to the University of Life and read Graffiti so as I can work it out from that then you with your first degree in physics should find it a piece of p**s as they say.
Hint: builidings are not sealed units.
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The key was needed to open the front door from the outside, so for some reason they felt that was safe, but it was too easy to open from the inside. Even though they felt if Madeleine was going to come over to the Tapas she would use the patio door, so I suppose that reduced the likelihood of the front door being the door of choice for Madeleine to exit.
Why so?
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So you have said, but I know these types of doors from the days I was a security guard going from building to building. These you can't just pull behind you to lock it again. I'm certain of that. I'll go down to the hardware store and check it out.
I agree that a small child could open it, but I dispute your concept of just pulling it to close it behind you.
Have you not looked closely at the two bolts on the door mechanism?
The bottom bolt is called the latch bolt and is tapered in order to allow it to engage the strike plate easily. It is this bolt which engages when the door is closed. From the inside you pull the slide to open it. From the outside you need the key to retract it.
The top bolt is square in profile and is called the deadbolt. This bolt has to be engaged and disengaged with the key.
From this you must surely understand that the key is always needed to enter from the outside. The key retracts both the deadbolt and the latch bolt when turned fully.
Most door locks allow them to be pulled shut, the Chub for example has to be locked back to disable this function. However, the default setting allows you to pull the door closed behind you. People don't want to have to physically lock an outside door every time they leave a property.
(http://www.chavesareeiro.pt/portals/13/imagens/produtos/fechaduras/fechadura_de_4_entradas_02.jpg)
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg)
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The aborted burglary/disturbed and wandered theory is a potential match.
But, there is a caveat.
If the door is so easy to open. Why didn't the parent secure it by deadlocking? Why overlook such an obvious risk?
KMcC states:
Before they left she took some precautions: put the medicine inside a bag with a clasp in her room inside the wardrobe or the dresser. These were Calpol (paracetamol) and Nurofen (Ibuprofen), for fevers and pains, both for adults and children (liquid form for children). In this bag there was also a small pair of scissors. In the kitchen were cutting elements used to prepare the meals and which were not put out of sight.
JT states:
“And the door, they couldn’t get out, we made sure they couldn’t, well from the point of Ella you know we made sure she couldn’t err not escape, because that sounds terrible, but you know she, the door was dead locked so she couldn’t have, she couldn’t have wandered off so I mean obviously there’s harm, you could say she could have done herself harm in the apartment anyway but from our own view of knowing Ella we thought you know she couldn’t, couldn’t come to any harm, and Evie was in her cot so couldn’t get out the cot, so.”
Why would the McCanns overlook such an obvious risk? They considered knives and medicine.
They state they cannot remember whether the door was deadlocked.
Why not?
When they came back after the alarm was raised they entered the apartment together, and shortly after they would have opened the front door.
There is only one key.
I'm surprised they cannot remember whether the door was deadlocked or not.
When Kate returned to the apartment at 10pm & discovered Madeleine was missing she did not venture outside the front door, merely looked out the window. One explanation for that is the door was double-locked & Gerry had the key with him in the Tapas Bar.
I find it difficult to believe that the parents left the key in the apartment during dinner because, in the event of the patio door jamming or being locked by a mischievous child, they'd have been in a bit of a bother.
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When Kate returned to the apartment at 10pm & discovered Madeleine was missing she did not venture outside the front door, merely looked out the window. One explanation for that is the door was double-locked & Gerry had the key with him in the Tapas Bar.
I find it difficult to believe that the parents left the key in the apartment during dinner because, in the event of the patio door jamming or being locked by a mischievous child, they'd have been in a bit of a bother.
That's not true Misty, the key of the front door was left on the kitchen countertop. That's why Gerry had to change his statement after originally telling poliice that he entered the apartment via the front door. An impossibity when the key was left inside.
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That's not true Misty, the key of the front door was left on the kitchen countertop. That's why Gerry had to change his statement after originally telling poliice that he entered the apartment via the front door. An impossibity when the key was left inside.
It may have been photographed/seen by the GNR in the kitchen but is there a cite for Kate or Gerry saying they left it in the apartment during dinner?
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Have you not looked closely at the two bolts on the door mechanism?
The bottom bolt is called the latch bolt and is tapered in order to allow it to engage the strike plate easily. It is this bolt which engages when the door is closed. From the inside you pull the slide to open it. From the outside you need the key to retract it.
The top bolt is square in profile and is called the deadbolt. This bolt has to be engaged and disengaged with the key.
From this you must surely understand that the key is always needed to enter from the outside. The key retracts both the deadbolt and the latch bolt when turned fully.
Most door locks allow them to be pulled shut, the Chub for example has to be locked back to disable this function. However, the default setting allows you to pull the door closed behind you. People don't want to have to physically lock an outside door every time they leave a property.
(http://www.chavesareeiro.pt/portals/13/imagens/produtos/fechaduras/fechadura_de_4_entradas_02.jpg)
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg)
There is an additional piece of metal on the latch bolt which may prevent the door from just being pulled closed. Looking at pictures of locks, the extra piece of metal does not appear to be standard. As Rob has already said, it looks like an anti-slam device so you cannot be locked out without your key - you need the key outside to properkly close the door.
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There is an additional piece of metal on the latch bolt which may prevent the door from just being pulled closed. Looking at pictures of locks, the extra piece of metal does not appear to be standard. As Rob has already said, it looks like an anti-slam device so you cannot be locked out without your key - you need the key outside to properkly close the door.
You're right there is and it appears to be a second deadlock associated with the sliding lever.
That would imply therefore that the key was needed to retract the latch bolt from the inside too.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/fl/4948972739_c484f103dc_z.jpg)
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When Kate returned to the apartment at 10pm & discovered Madeleine was missing she did not venture outside the front door, merely looked out the window. One explanation for that is the door was double-locked & Gerry had the key with him in the Tapas Bar.
I find it difficult to believe that the parents left the key in the apartment during dinner because, in the event of the patio door jamming or being locked by a mischievous child, they'd have been in a bit of a bother.
Locks requiring a key to get out are a fire hazard and are therefore rare. The key wasn't needed to get out of 5A , just to get in imo. Here's Matthew's clear and concise description of how the door worked (not);
There was a lock, erm, it sort of, you know, one of those you turn twice with the key. And I think, and sort of I think a round, or was it like a lever handle, I can't remember what the handle was like, I think you had to turn it to go in and so it would snip, erm, you couldn't really shut it with the lock on, but I think if you didn't lock it up here you could then just open it and shut it, I think you had to actually lock it to, it wasn't like a Yale thing that, erm, stops you opening it again, I think'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
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Locks requiring a key to get out are a fire hazard and are therefore rare. The key wasn't needed to get out of 5A , just to get in imo. Here's Matthew's clear and concise description of how the door worked (not);
There was a lock, erm, it sort of, you know, one of those you turn twice with the key. And I think, and sort of I think a round, or was it like a lever handle, I can't remember what the handle was like, I think you had to turn it to go in and so it would snip, erm, you couldn't really shut it with the lock on, but I think if you didn't lock it up here you could then just open it and shut it, I think you had to actually lock it to, it wasn't like a Yale thing that, erm, stops you opening it again, I think'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
I agree that the key wasn't needed to get out of the apartment - you only used the lever (as demonstrated by GA in TTOTL https://youtu.be/LXpFm-kDFWk?t=2621). What we're trying to establish is whether the door could actually be closed from the outside without the use of a key. If Madeleine had wandered out through the front door & the door needed a key from the outside to close it, then who closed the door behind her?
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You're right there is and it appears to be a second deadlock associated with the sliding lever.
That would imply therefore that the key was needed to retract the latch bolt from the inside too.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/fl/4948972739_c484f103dc_z.jpg)
We saw the cleaners drawing that just by pulling on the hook.
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I agree that the key wasn't needed to get out of the apartment - you only used the lever (as demonstrated by GA in TTOTL https://youtu.be/LXpFm-kDFWk?t=2621). What we're trying to establish is whether the door could actually be closed from the outside without the use of a key. If Madeleine had wandered out through the front door & the door needed a key from the outside to close it, then who closed the door behind her?
I don't think the door needed a key to close it from the outside. If you arrived home you used the key to get in then closed it behind you just like a door with a yale lock. If you could do that from the inside, doesn't it follow that you could do it from the outside?
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I don't think the door needed a key to close it from the outside. If you arrived home you used the key to get in then closed it behind you just like a door with a yale lock. If you could do that from the inside, doesn't it follow that you could do it from the outside?
It's not like a Yale lock, though, that's the whole point. The lower latch has that extra piece of metal. Maybe you had to use the lever to close the door from the inside?
(I would disregard MO's statement because he was speaking about the lock in 5B, not 5A).
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That's not true Misty, the key of the front door was left on the kitchen countertop. That's why Gerry had to change his statement after originally telling poliice that he entered the apartment via the front door. An impossibity when the key was left inside.
A credible cite please for Gerry claiming to have left the keys on the kitchen countertop when they went out.
The fact that the keys were seen on the countertop after the police arrived in no way proves when they were put there.
IMO
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You're right there is and it appears to be a second deadlock associated with the sliding lever.
That would imply therefore that the key was needed to retract the latch bolt from the inside too.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/fl/4948972739_c484f103dc_z.jpg)
I think the secondary deadlock (lower) is there so that the door cannot close accidentally as long as it is slid across.
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The photo below shows a more modern version of the same Yale rim lock with the 2-throw bolt.
Specifications:
Latch operated from outside by key and from inside by pull lever
Bolt operated by key on inside and outside
(http://mpc.assaabloy.com/yalefile//Fetchfile.aspx?id=19394&ft=.jpg&mh=420&mw=1020)
http://www.yaleasia.com/en/yale/yale-asia/products/yale-lock-cases/yale-rim-locks/italian-style-classic-rim-lock-series/yale-italian-style-class-rim-lock-double-cylinder/
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I think the secondary deadlock (lower) is there so that the door cannot close accidentally as long as it is slid across.
That's not the door to 5A & the lower latch is different.
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That's not the door to 5A & the lower latch is different.
It is from apartment 6a, same mechanism but a slightly newer version.
The Chaves do Areeiro lock fitted to 5a is actually a Yale lock.
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A credible cite please for Gerry claiming to have left the keys on the kitchen countertop when they went out.
The fact that the keys were seen on the countertop after the police arrived in no way proves when they were put there.
IMO
From memory, when Gerry returned to 5A (Dispatches?) he said inside 5A that the key had been left on a countertop or table-top. Sorry, not interested enough to dig out his actual words or the time in the prog.
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That's not the door to 5A & the lower latch is different.
How do you think it differs?
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How do you think it differs?
The 2-throw bolt mechanism is exactly the same. 5a had a cruciform key while 6a has a standard Yale key. Other than that the only difference is cosmetic.
The only bit I still don't understand fully is if the horizontal draw bar is spring loaded and reverts to a default position? Also, does the draw bar withdraw the latch bolt and the lower deadbolt simultaneously?
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How do you think it differs?
The lower latch on 5a appears to be rounded at the bolt end & it has that additional larger piece of rectangular metal.
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The lower latch on 5a appears to be rounded at the bolt end & it has that additional larger piece of rectangular metal.
Yes, I see that, the latch bolt is rounded on 5a but triangular on 6a. Both have the additional rectangular metal which is a dead latch. It appears that the latch is automatic and will allow the door to close without the need for a key as long as the deadbolt and the dead latch are not extended. Opening the door from the outside always requires the key whilst opening it from the inside can be done without the key as long as the deadbolt and dead latch are not extended.
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Yes, I see that, the latch bolt is rounded on 5a but triangular on 6a. Both have the additional rectangular metal which is a dead latch. It appears that the latch is automatic and will allow the door to close without the need for a key as long as the deadbolt and the dead latch are not extended. Opening the door from the outside always requires the key whilst opening it from the inside can be done without the key as long as the deadbolt and dead latch are not extended.
this YT goes some way to explain it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM7i9u0VwkY the only thing I notice in this video is the dead latch activator is a small thing, whereas in the PDL situation it is larger. Does that suggest a different function?
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The 2-throw bolt mechanism is exactly the same. 5a had a cruciform key while 6a has a standard Yale key. Other than that the only difference is cosmetic.
The only bit I still don't understand fully is if the horizontal draw bar is spring loaded and reverts to a default position? Also, does the draw bar withdraw the latch bolt and the lower deadbolt simultaneously?
Going by what I saw the cleaners do you have to pull the draw bar when closing the door from the inside, they didn't just push the door shut. The door itself is not aware if you are on the inside or the outside so I suggest a similar action to that of pulling the draw bar is required whether inside or out.
You can't use a different set of rules to close the door from the outside and the inside.
(it is a weird argument but I think the logic gets us there.)
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It makes sense when deciding if Madeleine could possibly have wandered via the front door.
It also makes sense when deciding if an abductor could possibly have left the apartment via the front door without a key.
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I think this is really important to understanding the case. It might seem silly but it is actually crucial.
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I think this is really important to understanding the case. It might seem silly but it is actually crucial.
Crucial? Really?
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Crucial? Really?
Crucial when deciding if Madeleine could possibly have wandered via the front door.
Crucial when deciding if an abductor could possibly have left the apartment via the front door without a key.
Obviously if a person had a copy of the front door key these could be overridden, but then they would have to be looking for someone with a local connection. How did they get the key to that apartment?
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Crucial when deciding if Madeleine could possibly have wandered via the front door.
Crucial when deciding if an abductor could possibly have left the apartment via the front door without a key.
Obviously if a person had a copy of the front door key these could be overridden, but then they would have to be looking for someone with a local connection. How did they get the key to that apartment?
Don't you see that this is all irrelevant?
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Don't you see that this is all irrelevant?
No I don't actually, but it might be, so why do you think it is irrelevant?
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No I don't actually, but it might be, so why do you think it is irrelevant?
I simply don't have the time or the patience to lay out what is quite obvious to some of us.
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I simply don't have the time or the patience to lay out what is quite obvious to some of us.
OK so just let us sort out the key issue on our own.
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OK so just let us sort out the key issue on our own.
Please feel free to let me know when you have cracked it. With evidential proof, of course.
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Kate McCann said her daughter would have had to open and close the patio door, the child gate and the garden gate to leave the apartment herself. The front door was never mentioned except by Gerry's sister who said it was open.
Could MBM open the front door? If she could then she may have done so. The GNR dogs followed a trail from the front door on three separate occasions.
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Kate McCann said her daughter would have had to open and close the patio door, the child gate and the garden gate to leave the apartment herself. The front door was never mentioned except by Gerry's sister who said it was open.
Could MBM open the front door? If she could then she may have done so. The GNR dogs followed a trail from the front door on three separate occasions.
Madeleine may well have been able to open the front door. I think Gerry's sister just made an error or was misquoted /misinterpreted when she said that the front door was open.
The starting point for the GNR & S&R dogs should have started from the place where she was reportedly last seen, i.e. her bed. The dogs should have followed the freshest scent from that point & not the front door.
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Madeleine may well have been able to open the front door. I think Gerry's sister just made an error or was misquoted /misinterpreted when she said that the front door was open.
The starting point for the GNR & S&R dogs should have started from the place where she was reportedly last seen, i.e. her bed. The dogs should have followed the freshest scent from that point & not the front door.
Exactly and if she walked that way she walked with bare feet. I can't think of a better way of leaving a scent trail.
Getting out is as easy as pulling the tow bar as John called it.
If she did leave by the front door as the tracker dogs indicate then was the door found open or had someone else closed it after she had left? (This is still possible by closing the front door from the inside and exiting via the patio door.)
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Madeleine may well have been able to open the front door. I think Gerry's sister just made an error or was misquoted /misinterpreted when she said that the front door was open.
The starting point for the GNR & S&R dogs should have started from the place where she was reportedly last seen, i.e. her bed. The dogs should have followed the freshest scent from that point & not the front door.
They left by the veranda door, which they left closed but not locked. Main door was closed but not locked. She thinks it could be opened from the inside but not from the outside.
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
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https://youtu.be/5HHZYs15tCM?t=307
Similar lock, door being closed using latch inside.
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https://youtu.be/5HHZYs15tCM?t=307
Similar lock, door being closed using latch inside.
Although the key was in the lock, the lever opened the door, didn't it? Does that explain this statement by a previous occupant of 5A?
In this sequence, we left the door always closed with the key in the lock. The next morning, the cleaning woman knocked on the door and entered normally independent of the door being locked with the key in the interior of the lock.
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JUNE-HUGHES.htm
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https://youtu.be/5HHZYs15tCM?t=307
Similar lock, door being closed using latch inside.
Spring loaded. So that's that question answered.
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Spring loaded. So that's that question answered.
Yes.....but can you just pull it shut from the outside without using the "one turn to the left two turns to the right" key? Someone....please.
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From memory, when Gerry returned to 5A (Dispatches?) he said inside 5A that the key had been left on a countertop or table-top. Sorry, not interested enough to dig out his actual words or the time in the prog.
I have re-watched both the C4 Dispatches programme & Panorama Nov 2007 & neither features Gerry saying that he left the key on the kitchen counter. The original source appears to be Amaral saying that Gerry told Control Risks that he had left the key on the counter but there is no mention of that in the report from the online files. (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-SEP-07.htm)
Amaral:-(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id408.htm Scroll down to "blue bag" interview with Julia)
"There is a report from Control Risks, the first private detective agency which was brought to the case [by the McCanns] in the very first days, where they state, after speaking with Gerald McCann and other witnesses in that group [Tapas 9], that the key that Mr. Gerald McCann alleges to have used had in fact been left in the kitchen, in the kitchen’s counter. Right away, the lies started."
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Yes.....but can you just pull it shut from the outside without using the "one turn to the left two turns to the right" key? Someone....please.
I would say NO. the door does not know if it is being shut from the inside or the outside. We have seen the cleaner pull the latch back manually from the inside, that action would need to be done through the use of the key on the outside. That way in all times the person outside has a key, either that or there is another person on the inside.
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I would say NO. the door does not know if it is being shut from the inside or the outside. We have seen the cleaner pull the latch back manually from the inside, that action would need to be done through the use of the key on the outside. That way in all times the person outside has a key, either that or there is another person on the inside.
Thank you, Rob. So, if the front door was closed at 10pm we can conclude that Madeleine did not wake & wander outside through that door. Equally, if she was abducted then either the AA did not exit via the front door or had to have used a key to exit that way.
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Thank you, Rob. So, if the front door was closed at 10pm we can conclude that Madeleine did not wake & wander outside through that door. Equally, if she was abducted then either the AA did not exit via the front door or had to have used a key to exit that way.
Well I take it meaning something different again. In my theory there are some people aware that Madeleine has exited the building. The first thing they may have done is to secure the front door so that the other two kids didn't wander off and then they exited via the patio door and then went looking for Madeleine. This fits with the Carpenter statement of Mrs Carpenter hearing someone call out for Madeleine prior to Kate's alert. Also the man seen by the lady picking up the the last child from the drop in creche was a Mark Warner guest. The nannies were aware of the missing Madeleine prior to Kate's alert as well, that enabled Amy Tierney to get there when the shutters were still up and the window open.
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Well I take it meaning something different again. In my theory there are some people aware that Madeleine has exited the building. The first thing they may have done is to secure the front door so that the other two kids didn't wander off and then they exited via the patio door and then went looking for Madeleine. This fits with the Carpenter statement of Mrs Carpenter hearing someone call out for Madeleine prior to Kate's alert. Also the man seen by the lady picking up the the last child from the drop in creche was a Mark Warner guest. The nannies were aware of the missing Madeleine prior to Kate's alert as well, that enabled Amy Tierney to get there when the shutters were still up and the window open.
A very complicated explanation of what we may yet find out was a very simple exercise.
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Thank you, Rob. So, if the front door was closed at 10pm we can conclude that Madeleine did not wake & wander outside through that door. Equally, if she was abducted then either the AA did not exit via the front door or had to have used a key to exit that way.
I, like John, promote the woke and wandered hypothesis. From the route followed by the tracker dogs Madeleine is likely to have exited the front door and gone down between blocks 4 and 5 then turned left toward the road once in the alleyway. Since she is now outside the building the AA does not have to break in, doesn't have to exit the front door nor have to use a key to lock it.
I have a rather complex theory where there are 3 or 4 people or groups of people operating separately, with Madeleine being influenced by them all in some minor way.
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Thank you, Rob. So, if the front door was closed at 10pm we can conclude that Madeleine did not wake & wander outside through that door. Equally, if she was abducted then either the AA did not exit via the front door or had to have used a key to exit that way.
From inside you use the lever and go out. You pull the door closed with that fixed knob and off you go. It answers another question for me too. I wondered how the children got far away down the gardens the day they ran off without being overtaken by a parent. If Madeleine opened the front door and the parents didn't notice straight away that would have given them a start.
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From inside you use the lever and go out. You pull the door closed with that fixed knob and off you go. It answers another question for me too. I wondered how the children got far away down the gardens the day they ran off without being overtaken by a parent. If Madeleine opened the front door and the parents didn't notice straight away that would have given them a start.
The only sentence I still dispute is "You pull the door closed with that fixed knob and off you go". If that was so, why didn't the cleaners just push the door shut?
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From inside you use the lever and go out. You pull the door closed with that fixed knob and off you go. It answers another question for me too. I wondered how the children got far away down the gardens the day they ran off without being overtaken by a parent. If Madeleine opened the front door and the parents didn't notice straight away that would have given them a start.
Whereas I simply thought it might be a game. As in parent chases child, because both are having fun.
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The only sentence I still dispute is "You pull the door closed with that fixed knob and off you go". If that was so, why didn't the cleaners just push the door shut?
The video you posted showed a deadlatch mechanism, which is one explanation for the rectangular section.
But if you look at the strike plate the edge of the latch and the deadbolt 'holes' appear to line up.
This would defeat a deadlatch mechanism. The whole idea is that the deadlatch section remains depressed while the latch is springs back in the strike plate. A deadlatch is an anti tamper device to prevent forcing the latch from the outside with a screwdriver/credit card/etc.
There seems to be doubt as to whether this is a deadlatch.
Do you have a link to the 'cleaner' video?
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The video you posted showed a deadlatch mechanism, which is one explanation for the rectangular section.
But if you look at the strike plate the edge of the latch and the deadbolt 'holes' appear to line up.
This would defeat a deadlatch mechanism. The whole idea is that the deadlatch section remains depressed while the latch is springs back in the strike plate. A deadlatch is an anti tamper device to prevent forcing the latch from the outside with a screwdriver/credit card/etc.
There seems to be doubt as to whether this is a deadlatch.
Do you have a link to the 'cleaner' video?
Cleaner video:
https://youtu.be/5HHZYs15tCM?t=307 it was in Misty's post previous page.
I must have a look at the striker plate you talk about.
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(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg)
[/quote]
I now realise that the latch approaches the striker plate from the right to the left and the cut out is large enough to accommodate the rectangular shaft John called the "dead latch" (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8288.msg412425#msg412425), so in this case it definitely is acting differently to a dead latch in the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM7i9u0VwkY). We originally were calling it an anti-slam device but our local hardware store had nothing with a similar design.
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I would say NO. the door does not know if it is being shut from the inside or the outside. We have seen the cleaner pull the latch back manually from the inside, that action would need to be done through the use of the key on the outside. That way in all times the person outside has a key, either that or there is another person on the inside.
What do think the raked face is for on the latch?
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The only sentence I still dispute is "You pull the door closed with that fixed knob and off you go". If that was so, why didn't the cleaners just push the door shut?
She appeared to move the slide when shutting the door so the question still arises, can the door be closed without drawing the slide across? These types of locks must be very common in Luz, maybe SiL can investigate?
A short video would be brill SiL? %#&%%5
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What do think the raked face is for on the latch?
That's to allow it to be pushed back when the door is closed. By the looks of it though the lower deadlock part has to be pulled back using the slide before the door will close completely. If that turns out to be the case then the door cannot be closed from the outsdide without a key.
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That's to allow it to be pushed back when the door is closed. By the looks of it though the lower deadlock part has to be pulled back using the slide before the door will close completely. If that turns out to be the case then the door cannot be closed from the outsdide without a key.
My impression is that the deadlock doesn't engage automatically. It has to be activated in some way or it stays inside the housing. Kate said the door wasn't locked. If that's true, the dead lock would be inside it's housing and wouldn't prevent the door from being closed with a pull from outside.
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What do think the raked face is for on the latch?
At least it would soften the slam against the stop. Look I don't know the technical names for all the parts but if both were squared faced the striker plate would get knocked around. The raked face would take up some of this impact.
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That's to allow it to be pushed back when the door is closed. By the looks of it though the lower deadlock part has to be pulled back using the slide before the door will close completely. If that turns out to be the case then the door cannot be closed from the outsdide without a key.
It was a rhetorical question John..... 8(>((
The spring latch is fabricated see several bits I have already posted.
Pull the door "to" on way out the raked face hits the striker plate and pushes the spring loaded latch back. Reverse action by ne'er do wells if you forget to lock the door is prevented by the flat face on the inside...simples.
I still don't see why the hang up on locks built to standard codes of practice. For fifty quid you can buy one, pull it to bits and cop a dekko at how it works.
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It was a rhetorical question John..... 8(>((
The spring latch is fabricated see several bits I have already posted.
Pull the door "to" on way out the raked face hits the striker plate and pushes the spring loaded latch back. Reverse action by ne'er do wells if you forget to lock the door is prevented by the flat face on the inside...simples.
I still don't see why the hang up on locks built to standard codes of practice. For fifty quid you can buy one, pull it to bits and cop a dekko at how it works.
The whole issue is to prevent someone pulling the door closed and then finding they haven't got the one and only key with them. Your explanation does not prevent that happening, so I think you have not captured the essential part.
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The whole issue is to prevent someone pulling the door closed and then finding they haven't got the one and only key with them. Your explanation does not prevent that happening, so I think you have not captured the essential part.
Oh I think I have it pretty well taped. The "crutch" of the matter, as one might say, is to attempt to keep unauthorised persons out.
It is possible to lock oneself out of a property and has been for many years even current state of the art UK locking makes it all too easy.
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Oh I think I have it pretty well taped. The "crutch" of the matter, as one might say, is to attempt to keep unauthorised persons out.
It is possible to lock oneself out of a property and has been for many years even current state of the art UK locking makes it all too easy.
And they often try and get around that by issuing more than 1 key at reception time.
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Oh I think I have it pretty well taped. The "crutch" of the matter, as one might say, is to attempt to keep unauthorised persons out.
It is possible to lock oneself out of a property and has been for many years even current state of the art UK locking makes it all too easy.
Do you think the lower latch has been modified because I can't find an identical one on the internet? It also looks as if the upper dead bolt has been replaced at some stage as it's a different colour.
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The whole issue is to prevent someone pulling the door closed and then finding they haven't got the one and only key with them. Your explanation does not prevent that happening, so I think you have not captured the essential part.
That isn't the issue at all, especially at the Ocean Club where other keys exist. The dead lock is an extra level of security added to the spring lock to stop people getting in.
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That isn't the issue at all, especially at the Ocean Club where other keys exist. The dead lock is an extra level of security added to the spring lock to stop people getting in.
We are not talking about the deadlock. Both the latch and the deadlatch dropped into the striker plate. If the moved as one they would not add any extra security.
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We are not talking about the deadlock. Both the latch and the deadlatch dropped into the striker plate. If the moved as one they would not add any extra security.
How could they move as one? The dead lock needed a key to activate it, the other bit didn't.
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The deadlock is not the same as the dead latch. The deadlock is in the upper part of the lock.
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How could they move as one? The dead lock needed a key to activate it, the other bit didn't.
They are both activated by the same key first turn for the latch and deadlatch and second turn for the deadlock.
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They are both activated by the same key first turn for the latch and deadlatch and second turn for the deadlock.
You go out and close the door by pulling it to with the knob. On your return you turn the key once and get in.
You go out and close the door by pulling it to with the knob. You put the key in the lock and turn it. The door is now double-locked. On your return you turn the key twice to get in.
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Do you think the lower latch has been modified because I can't find an identical one on the internet? It also looks as if the upper dead bolt has been replaced at some stage as it's a different colour.
Try 6100 Series on here for a similar latch configuration. It's like that to make the latch easily reversible on installation if required.
I am baffled that lock configurations common all over the globe are suddenly full of mystique and voodoo at
37.0909° N, 8.7591° W. Is there some kind of warp there that only the truly initiated know about ?
http://www.int-door-controls.co.uk/ccp51/media/downloads/pdf/Locks-and-Latches-Brochure-07.pdf
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Try 6100 Series on here for a similar latch configuration. It's like that to make the latch easily reversible on installation if required.
I am baffled that lock configurations common all over the globe are suddenly full of mystique and voodoo at
37.0909° N, 8.7591° W. Is there some kind of warp there that only the truly initiated know about ?
http://www.int-door-controls.co.uk/ccp51/media/downloads/pdf/Locks-and-Latches-Brochure-07.pdf
Thank you. Is the mortice sash lock the nearest equivalent to 5A's?
I'm still having trouble with the physics of that rectangular piece, which appears to protrude, on the end of the lower latch. The strike plate does not look rounded & any angling of the metal appears minimal, although the image is not the best. Having played around with some doors in my house, I still can't determine if 5A would slam shut.
Can you explain in simple terms for someone from Venus?
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You go out and close the door by pulling it to with the knob. On your return you turn the key once and get in.
You go out and close the door by pulling it to with the knob. You put the key in the lock and turn it. The door is now double-locked. On your return you turn the key twice to get in.
That would not work you can't go in and out a door repeatedly always turning the lock twice on the entry. You would need to turn it the same number of times in both directions.
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even with a Yale lock that takes a half turn to pull the latch back the spring makes you turn the key back to the start position before you can withdraw the key.
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even with a Yale lock that takes a half turn to pull the latch back the spring makes you turn the key back to the start position before you can withdraw the key.
It works just like a Yale lock if you don't double lock it. Using the dead bolt is a choice, it's not compulsory.
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It works just like a Yale lock if you don't double lock it. Using the dead bolt is a choice, it's not compulsory.
I have asked an expert for his opinion.
I might have agreed if there wasn't that large rectangular deadlatch there as well.
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Thank you. Is the mortice sash lock the nearest equivalent to 5A's?
I'm still having trouble with the physics of that rectangular piece, which appears to protrude, on the end of the lower latch. The strike plate does not look rounded & any angling of the metal appears minimal, although the image is not the best. Having played around with some doors in my house, I still can't determine if 5A would slam shut.
Can you explain in simple terms for someone from Venus?
Yup no problem. I call it "the man from Mars approach" * but it's the same sort of thing I guess.
Laters though after I have finished nailing chicken heads to the neighbours doors 8(0(*
* think of how you would explain the concept of lawns to a man from Mars.
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Yup no problem. I call it "the man from Mars approach" * but it's the same sort of thing I guess.
Laters though after I have finished nailing chicken heads to the neighbours doors 8(0(*
* think of how you would explain the concept of lawns to a man from Mars.
I am certain that the Martians on their many trips to the Earth have seen humans cutting what is commonly called lawn. No explanation is required.
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I am certain that the Martians on their many trips to the Earth have seen humans cutting what is commonly called lawn. No explanation is required.
VERY OFF TOPIC
I was thinking more of a logical explanation for the complete waste of resources.
The bit where you say "we cut it once a week in the summer"
"What do you do with the clippings then eat them?"
"Nah we throw them away".
"Hmmmm"
"What about this machine you use for cutting ; you only use it for about 18 hours a year ; do you buy one between several of you and share the expense?"
"Nah every house has one some have two"
"Hmmm"
He goes back to mother ship and falls about laughing telling his mates about the billion pound industry based on growing a bit of green stuff by your house that you cut 36 weeks in the year then throw away the clippings.... 8(>((
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VERY OFF TOPIC
I was thinking more of a logical explanation for the complete waste of resources.
The bit where you say "we cut it once a week in the summer"
"What do you do with the clippings then eat them?"
"Nah we throw them away".
"Hmmmm"
"What about this machine you use for cutting ; you only use it for about 18 hours a year ; do you buy one between several of you and share the expense?"
"Nah every house has one some have two"
"Hmmm"
He goes back to mother ship and falls about laughing telling his mates about the billion pound industry based on growing a bit of green stuff by your house that you cut 36 weeks in the year then throw away the clippings.... 8(>((
If you were smart you would explain to the little bald green men that the green stuff was actually replacement hair being grown, ready for transplant. It is dried out at certain times to cater for different colour requirements & regularly cut as the male of the species who generally requires the transplant prefers it short.
I'm sure Elon Musk could make a killing if he took some seeds & a few gallons of water on a scheduled trip to Mars.
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Thank you. Is the mortice sash lock the nearest equivalent to 5A's?
I'm still having trouble with the physics of that rectangular piece, which appears to protrude, on the end of the lower latch. The strike plate does not look rounded & any angling of the metal appears minimal, although the image is not the best. Having played around with some doors in my house, I still can't determine if 5A would slam shut.
Can you explain in simple terms for someone from Venus?
Here we go then.
The rectangular piece does not protrude beyond the tip of the wedge. If it did you would never be able to shut door. The pointy bit of the latch taper has to slide along the striker plate to engage. Any sticky out bits will prevent that.
The type of lock assembly in 5A is a Rimlock. Rim and Mortice are just explanations of how the assembly is fitted to the door. Mortice goes inside the door whereas Rim is fitted on the outside of the door [note inside and outside refer to the door in this instance not to the dwelling]. The lock fitted to 5A has a dead bolt [only operable by key from inside or outside the dwelling] and a spring latch which is operable by key only from outside and manually inside. The Sash lock I referenced was mainly to show how the spring latch head can be fabricated and the two main components ie a Sash lock is one that has a dead bolt [key operated] plus a spring latch operable by handle on either side of the door A spring latch will always have an inclined face on the tongue bit to work with the striker plate. It works like any old wedge in changing direction of movement by mechanical advantage. Like raising your sideboard by banging wedges under the feet but in this instance to shove the latch tongue back inside the housing. What the tongue bit looks like in detail doesn't matter. It must have a taper or radius to operate the spring and there must be nothing protruding beyond the thin end of the wedge or the bleeding door will never shut at all. In short if the latch has a taper it is a spring latch other wise there is no reason for the taper.
There is nothing clever or complicated about it. Nor nefarious come to that bearing in mind the security of the apartment was arranged when it was first built which was before the world at large realised the designers were building in booby traps to catch out two people, no one had ever heard of at the time, about 10 years later...
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If you were smart you would explain to the little bald green men that the green stuff was actually replacement hair being grown, ready for transplant. It is dried out at certain times to cater for different colour requirements & regularly cut as the male of the species who generally requires the transplant prefers it short.
I'm sure Elon Musk could make a killing if he took some seeds & a few gallons of water on a scheduled trip to Mars.
They are from Mars' northern hemisphere. The one I met was from the southern hemisphere and he was red.
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Here we go then.
The rectangular piece does not protrude beyond the tip of the wedge. If it did you would never be able to shut door. The pointy bit of the latch taper has to slide along the striker plate to engage. Any sticky out bits will prevent that.
The type of lock assembly in 5A is a Rimlock. Rim and Mortice are just explanations of how the assembly is fitted to the door. Mortice goes inside the door whereas Rim is fitted on the outside of the door [note inside and outside refer to the door in this instance not to the dwelling]. The lock fitted to 5A has a dead bolt [only operable by key from inside or outside the dwelling] and a spring latch which is operable by key only from outside and manually inside. The Sash lock I referenced was mainly to show how the spring latch head can be fabricated and the two main components ie a Sash lock is one that has a dead bolt [key operated] plus a spring latch operable by handle on either side of the door A spring latch will always have an inclined face on the tongue bit to work with the striker plate. It works like any old wedge in changing direction of movement by mechanical advantage. Like raising your sideboard by banging wedges under the feet but in this instance to shove the latch tongue back inside the housing. What the tongue bit looks like in detail doesn't matter. It must have a taper or radius to operate the spring and there must be nothing protruding beyond the thin end of the wedge or the bleeding door will never shut at all. In short if the latch has a taper it is a spring latch other wise there is no reason for the taper.
There is nothing clever or complicated about it. Nor nefarious come to that bearing in mind the security of the apartment was arranged when it was first built which was before the world at large realised the designers were building in booby traps to catch out two people, no one had ever heard of at the time, about 10 years later...
Thanks for taking the trouble to explain. I'm still not sure about the need for that rectangular part, though.
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Thanks for taking the trouble to explain. I'm still not sure about the need for that rectangular part, though.
Sorry I clearly didn't make myself clear ho ho.
It is merely a function of how the latch is fabricated. A spring latch must have a sloping face and a flat face otherwise it will not work. How you as the fabricator achieve that is pretty much up to you unless the code is specific. I can think of about half a dozen ways to do it.
Being a sad old bustard I looked at the latches on my external doors today, all six of them, seven if you throw in the garage personnel door, look like the latch tongue on apartment 5A which is no real surprise.
It is a something and nothing issue that we the forum have made 13 pages out of. It is nothing sinister, unusual or incompetent.
Can we talk about Martians now please? ?{)(**
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Sorry I clearly didn't make myself clear ho ho.
It is merely a function of how the latch is fabricated. A spring latch must have a sloping face and a flat face otherwise it will not work. How you as the fabricator achieve that is pretty much up to you unless the code is specific. I can think of about half a dozen ways to do it.
Being a sad old bustard I looked at the latches on my external doors today, all six of them, seven if you throw in the garage personnel door, look like the latch tongue on apartment 5A which is no real surprise.
It is a something and nothing issue that we the forum have made 13 pages out of. It is nothing sinister, unusual or incompetent.
Can we talk about Martians now please? ?{)(**
Would you post a photo of the garage personnel door please?
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Russell said;
We were conscious that, that, erm, if you, you only do one lock on the main door then it can be opened from the inside but if you double lock it then, then, then you need the key to get in or out”.
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
So their daughter was completely locked in but Madeleine wasn't unless her parents dead locked their door.
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Would you post a photo of the garage personnel door please?
Gimme a bucket of sand and I'll sing you the desert song.
That's old English for "No Chance".
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Gimme a bucket of sand and I'll sing you the desert song.
That's old English for "No Chance".
Do you remember the sand dance? Weird I always thought.
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Gimme a bucket of sand and I'll sing you the desert song.
That's old English for "No Chance".
I could bring you a truck load if that will help.
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https://youtu.be/LXpFm-kDFWk?t=2621
Since this is about the Key I'll repost it here for reference too.
The images are such poor quality I can't make out what I'm seeing.
I am convinced we are looking at apartment 5A. So the screw is on the door jamb and not on the door. That only makes sense if the door will slam shut without a key, or does the key have to be inserted then you could slam it shut??
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Easy old stuff with one of these:
"Double cylinder anti lockout lock" and it looks like this:
http://www.saundersonsecurity.co.uk/acatalog/info_E_DZ_31_31_NP.html
There are innocent explanations for most things.
(http://www.henryandkemp.co.nz/assets/Uploads/_resampled/SetSize400300-ANTI-LOCKOUT-LOCK-V25RH-V26LH-600x584.jpg)
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This is the proof that there is such a thing and from the description of how the doors on the apartments work I'd say they were fitted with anti-lockout locks on their front doors.