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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on March 12, 2018, 06:34:30 PM
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Were the staff at the Batista Supermarket interviewed?
How often did they take the kids into the supermarket.
Who went shopping?
What is the correct spelling of the supermarket?
They weren't planning on having all their meals on their own but with the 3 kids in tow it became too difficult to walk all the way to the Millennium restaurant every morning for breakfast and every midday for lunch so the had breakfast in the apartment and presumably lunch as well.
But how did they get their provisions? One of the Tapas 7 mentioned something about only getting female staff in the supermarket. Was there a reason for this sexist comment?
"On May 3 they all woke between 7;30 and 8:00 AM; doesn't know who woke first. They washed the children and had breakfast at the apartment between 08:00 and 08:30 AM. Food bought by her and Gerry at Baptista supermarket. Previously they'd had breakfast at the Millenium, but as it was so far they'd decided to have breakfast at the apartment. " The statements usually the speak of the witness in the third person so was this Kate admitting she had been in there with the Kids?
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http://www.supermercado-baptista.com/ So it is spelt Baptista not Batista or Baptiste.
Only one instance of that name in the alphabetical file "JOAQUIM JOSE M.BAPTISTA WAITER 06 MAY 07"
No instances of files headed Supermarket so it appears that there was no interviews of staff working at the Baptista Supermarket.
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http://www.supermercado-baptista.com/ So it is spelt Baptista not Batista or Baptiste.
Irrelevant.
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Irrelevant.
Spelling is not irrelevant when you are doing Google search. There is nothing in the file so what can we discover about the Baptista on the internet?
http://www.pulse.ng/news/world/in-portugal-madeleine-mccanns-disappearance-haunts-resort-id6606588.html
"Many British expatriates in the city gather in the shady courtyard of the Baptista supermarket, spending mornings buried in British newspapers and drinking tea."
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Irrelevant.
Is this irrelevant?
"All members of the group did their shopping at the only supermarket near the complex, the "Batista."
she not being concerned however about it. There are several till-points, more or less five. Twice she went to shop having always been attended at the till by ladies. rogatory Rachael Mariamma Jean Mampilly Oldfield
In that I see the possibility of concern.
There is the concept of concern about the possibility of being served in the supermarket by a male checkout operator.
But she also got the spelling wrong and the PJ and the translators allowed the spelling to be entered wrongly into the file.
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Spelling is not irrelevant when you are doing Google search. There is nothing in the file so what can we discover about the Baptista on the internet?
http://www.pulse.ng/news/world/in-portugal-madeleine-mccanns-disappearance-haunts-resort-id6606588.html
"Many British expatriates in the city gather in the shady courtyard of the Baptista supermarket, spending mornings buried in British newspapers and drinking tea."
Does it say if they sell NZ white wine ? 8(>((
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Does it say if they sell NZ white wine ? 8(>((
I'll take a wild guess and say "yes".
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SiL has a great photo of the courtyard on the blog (https://shininginluz.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/20170311-baptista-1.jpg)
And there were CCTV cameras on the building as well. CCTV just meters away from where Madeleine went missing.
https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2017/03/18/madeleine-baptista-cctv/
"The McCanns very quickly worked out that the walk from apartment 5A to the Millennium, complete with two twins aged 2 years and 3 months, and Madeleine aged nearly 4, minus a buggy for the twins, was too much like hard work. I have walked that walk. I can state that in the same circumstances, I would not have being using the Millennium, and there is a further statement in the PJ Files that supports this.
Thus, Baptista became the source of breakfast and lunch for the McCanns, with the Tapas zone providing high tea for the children and the Tapas Restaurant providing dinner for the Tapas 9. All of this, if you understand the layout of Luz, makes perfect sense. Baptista was perhaps 60m down Rua Martins from apartment 5A. Somewhat of a doddle." https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2017/01/02/madeleine-xmas-day-8-baptista/
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Is this irrelevant?
"All members of the group did their shopping at the only supermarket near the complex, the "Batista."
she not being concerned however about it. There are several till-points, more or less five. Twice she went to shop having always been attended at the till by ladies. rogatory Rachael Mariamma Jean Mampilly Oldfield
In that I see the possibility of concern.
There is the concept of concern about the possibility of being served in the supermarket by a male checkout operator.
But she also got the spelling wrong and the PJ and the translators allowed the spelling to be entered wrongly into the file.
Dear God, Rob, do you not know about the Catholic thing. John Baptiste, and other spellings, according to whatever.
The spelling is entirely irrelevant.
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Dear God, Rob, do you not know about the Catholic thing. John Baptiste, and other spellings, according to whatever.
The spelling is entirely irrelevant.
Here Dianne Webster or is it the translator who gets the spelling incorrect. "She added that in the days preceding the disappearance of Madeleine, after breakfast she would play sport (especially tennis), after which she would go to the supermarket BATISTA to make the purchases for lunch. In return, she points out that several families who made up the group met in the PAYNE's apartment to have lunch together, explaining that this was due to the fact that it is the larger apartment. "
Well is Silvia's surname Baptista or Batista?
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Here Dianne Webster or is it the translator who gets the spelling incorrect. "She added that in the days preceding the disappearance of Madeleine, after breakfast she would play sport (especially tennis), after which she would go to the supermarket BATISTA to make the purchases for lunch. In return, she points out that several families who made up the group met in the PAYNE's apartment to have lunch together, explaining that this was due to the fact that it is the larger apartment. "
Well is Silvia's surname Baptista or Batista?
It could be either, depending on who you thought John the Baptiste was.
Have you ever heard of John the Baptist?
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It could be either, depending on who you thought John the Baptiste was.
Have you ever heard of John the Baptist?
Are you saying they could spell names however they felt like it? Of course I've heard of John the Baptist. I appreciate in those days surnames were not essential.
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Are you saying they could spell names however they felt like it? Of course I've heard of John the Baptist. I appreciate in those days surnames were not essential.
Of course I am saying they could change the actual spelling. Foreigners do this. An E or an A on the end. Or are you telling me that you are completely ignorant of this?
Incidentally, Baptiste can be a Forename or a Surname, but generally one does not pronounce the P.
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Of course I am saying they could change the actual spelling. Foreigners do this. An E or an A on the end. Or are you telling me that you are completely ignorant of this?
Incidentally, Baptiste can be a Forename or a Surname, but generally one does not pronounce the P.
Completely ignorant of that.
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It is so ridiculous that every time we see the name of the supermarket it is spelt differently
This was Kate's statement too:
"The day after their arrival, they went for breakfast at around 7.30/8.30 at the Ocean Club, in a bar situated some distance from the apartment. On the following days, because the bar was quite far away, they started buying supplies from the "BAPTISTE" supermarket, located on the same road as the apartment and they had their first meal of the day in the apartment."
The only person to spell it correctly was Kate:
"On May 3 they all woke between 7;30 and 8:00 AM; doesn't know who woke first. They washed the children and had breakfast at the apartment between 08:00 and 08:30 AM. Food bought by her and Gerry at Baptista supermarket.
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other references to Baptista Supermarket
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BAREND_WEIJDOM.htm
"He heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21.30 - 21.40 from P**** B******, a Dutchman and owner of the Atlantico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in P da L and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine.
He then went to the place where the events occurred which was at about 21.45 - 21.50. At this time various local people and MW staff were present.
When questioned he said that the police wasn’t there yet but arrived about 5 minutes later."
Is his timing out by an hour or were there really police at OC before 10:00 PM?
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
Silvia Batista mentioned the Baptista supermarket.
"Silvia Batista translated the deposition from one of the ladies that belonged to the group of English people, namely one that she indicates as being a brunette. This lady told the GNR officers, and Silvia Batista translated, that she had seen a man crossing the road, possibly carrying a child. Silvia Batista found that situation strange because she was convinced that when she saw this man, the lady was positioned in a spot that has no viewing angle to the location where she had seen the man. She doesn’t know exactly where the lady was positioned when she saw the man passing by, but she knows that she indicated that she saw him passing on the street that lies in front of the window to the bedroom where Madeleine was, walking into the direction of the street that leads to the Baptista supermarket."
What does "walking in the direction of the street that then leads to the Baptista supermarket" mean on a good day?
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4458.msg161442#msg161442
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"At the Baptista supermarket in the centre of the resort, close to where the abduction happened, music was turned off, cash registers stopped and a tannoy announced the silence to staff and customers." https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1552223/Portugal-falls-silent-for-minute-of-hope.html
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This could be the lead I was looking for:
"Robert Murat 'seen talking to man matching artist's impression of Madeleine suspect '" https://www.standard.co.uk/news/robert-murat-seen-talking-to-man-matching-artists-impression-of-madeleine-suspect-7300893.html
"Charlotte Pennington has claimed she saw Murat chatting to the man in the sketch"
Now I'm being stretched!
Going on:
"Robert Murat was spotted chatting to a man who resembled the 'oddball' in the new sketch released by the McCanns and who is suspected of abducting Madeleine, it has been claimed today.
Charlotte Pennington, a nanny at the Ocean Club holiday complex where the McCanns were staying, told police last May she saw Murat chatting to "a man aged around 27 to 35, average height, very dark eyes and of Portuguese or Spanish appearance".
She told detectives she saw expat Murat, who lives with his mother near to holiday complex, talking to the man outside the Baptista supermarket in Praia da Luz."
Was that before the event on the 3rd? What day? No one says.
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References to Baptista Supermarket in kate's book.
"However, there are two references to the McCanns visiting the Baptista supermarket in Dr Kate McCann's book, 'madeleine', which may be of interest here.
The first one was on the SUNDAY and refers to a trip allegedly made sometime in the morning (pages 51-52):
"Gerry had made a trip to Baptista, a supermarket a short distance from the Ocean Club on Rue Dr Gentil Martins, to get in a few bits and pieces for lunch, plus some cereal, to save us making the trek to the Millennium restaurant for breakfast each morning".
[NOTE: For whatever reason, the McCanns decided to have breakfast in their own room from Monday morning onwards].
Then on pages 56-57, we get this account of a trip by Gerry & Kate to the Baptista supermarket 'on the evening of Monday 30 April':
"On the evening of Monday, 30 April, I made my first foray to Baptista with Jane. We wanted to stock up on a few essentials as the next day was a pubic holiday. We all managed to make it for dinner at the Tapas restaurant that evening. Again, there was quite a cold wind..."
https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10497p300-another-look-at-the-last-photo
It is interesting that the second time the two go together was Gerry with them or not? I don't recall Jane saying she went with Kate.
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Another article to test your imagination:
"Yesterday it was reported in Portugal that a new witness, an unnamed Irishman, told police he was in the same spot as Miss Tanner at the same time and saw no one. He is the second independent witness to dispute her story and police sources said they viewed Miss Tanner’s evidence as “unreliable” because of inconsistencies. Officers are concerned that she apparently changed her version of the sighting.She originally claimed she saw the suspect rushing towards the Baptista supermarket in Praia da Luz. She told police the child was wrapped in a blanket. A second independent witness reported seeing a similar man with a child in a blanket near the town’s church heading towards the beach. The route he took matches the alleged trail of death discovered by British sniffer dogs who detected the scent of a corpse. But Miss Tanner has now told detectives that the man was heading in a different direction – towards Murat’s home. Police regard her account as one of a series given by the McCanns and their friends to convince them that Madeleine had been kidnapped."
http://gasparstatements.blogspot.co.nz/2010/03/?m=0
If that didn't nearly match what the PJ say that Silvia said it might be dismissed as a work of fiction. It is really funny how "Irish men" turn up at the most convenient times!
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Another article to test your imagination:
"Yesterday it was reported in Portugal that ----------------------------------------
If that didn't nearly match what the PJ say that Silvia said it might be dismissed as a work of fiction. It is really funny how "Irish men" turn up at the most convenient times!
All that is missing from that nonsense is the Irish teenager having a fly smoke in some corner while contradicting Jane Tanner's evidence.
Please get real on this Robitty and stop quoting lies and fantasies from suspect blogs; for some reason it was found to be incredibly important in certain circles to discredit Jane Tanner, maybe it would be worth wondering why that was, rather than giving disreputable musings the oxygen of publicity on a reputable forum.
I really think you should delete that post and the downright lies it contains.
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All that is missing from that nonsense is the Irish teenager having a fly smoke in some corner while contradicting Jane Tanner's evidence.
Please get real on this Robitty and stop quoting lies and fantasies from suspect blogs; for some reason it was found to be incredibly important in certain circles to discredit Jane Tanner, maybe it would be worth wondering why that was, rather than giving disreputable musings the oxygen of publicity on a reputable forum.
I really think you should delete that post and the downright lies it contains.
The quote came from a genuine Daily Express article, since removed.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/the-deleted-daily-express-articles-in-chronologica-t247-s140.html
Mon 24th Sept 2007 - The McCanns are lying,
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All that is missing from that nonsense is the Irish teenager having a fly smoke in some corner while contradicting Jane Tanner's evidence.
Please get real on this Robitty and stop quoting lies and fantasies from suspect blogs; for some reason it was found to be incredibly important in certain circles to discredit Jane Tanner, maybe it would be worth wondering why that was, rather than giving disreputable musings the oxygen of publicity on a reputable forum.
I really think you should delete that post and the downright lies it contains.
If the Irish man is Crecheman, and Silvia thinks Jane tells GNR (via Silvia) that Tannerman is heading toward the supermarket (as per her statement), and accept that the PJ totally reject Jane Tanner's statement of the 4th, we already accept Smithman, and we accept that the sniffer dogs went towards the supermarket there aren't actual lies in there but confusion.
I'm just wondering why the PJ never actually interviewed anyone from the supermarket. OK the supermarket would have been closed at the time so what were the employees and owners doing at that time of night?
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
Silvia Batista mentioned the Baptista supermarket.
"Silvia Batista translated the deposition from one of the ladies that belonged to the group of English people, namely one that she indicates as being a brunette. This lady told the GNR officers, and Silvia Batista translated, that she had seen a man crossing the road, possibly carrying a child. Silvia Batista found that situation strange because she was convinced that when she saw this man, the lady was positioned in a spot that has no viewing angle to the location where she had seen the man. She doesn’t know exactly where the lady was positioned when she saw the man passing by, but she knows that she indicated that she saw him passing on the street that lies in front of the window to the bedroom where Madeleine was, walking into the direction of the street that leads to the Baptista supermarket."
What does "walking in the direction of the street that then leads to the Baptista supermarket" mean on a good day?
As I have said I wonder why the GNR didn't take a little walk with Jane and sort this issue out on the night. Jane recounts that 3 days later a PJ officer does this very thing with her but unfortunately we don't have any records of that. Looking at her 4th May statement it becomes pretty clear that Silvia totally misunderstood Jane on the night of the 3rd.
She drew a diagram clearly showing the movements. (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_50.jpg)
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
Silvia Batista mentioned the Baptista supermarket.
"Silvia Batista translated the deposition from one of the ladies that belonged to the group of English people, namely one that she indicates as being a brunette. This lady told the GNR officers, and Silvia Batista translated, that she had seen a man crossing the road, possibly carrying a child. Silvia Batista found that situation strange because she was convinced that when she saw this man, the lady was positioned in a spot that has no viewing angle to the location where she had seen the man. She doesn’t know exactly where the lady was positioned when she saw the man passing by, but she knows that she indicated that she saw him passing on the street that lies in front of the window to the bedroom where Madeleine was, walking into the direction of the street that leads to the Baptista supermarket."
What does "walking in the direction of the street that then leads to the Baptista supermarket" mean on a good day?
There's a T-junction. JT was walking up the Martins one (that - in the other direction leads down to Baptista) and she saw him as he crossed the top of the da Silva one, i.e., at the intersection.
I don't quite see what she found odd, unless for some reason she thought that JT meant that she'd actually seen him as he passed the bedroom window as opposed to it being an explanation of the direction he appeared to have come from.
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Another article to test your imagination:
"Yesterday it was reported in Portugal that a new witness, an unnamed Irishman, told police he was in the same spot as Miss Tanner at the same time and saw no one. He is the second independent witness to dispute her story and police sources said they viewed Miss Tanner’s evidence as “unreliable” because of inconsistencies. Officers are concerned that she apparently changed her version of the sighting.She originally claimed she saw the suspect rushing towards the Baptista supermarket in Praia da Luz. She told police the child was wrapped in a blanket. A second independent witness reported seeing a similar man with a child in a blanket near the town’s church heading towards the beach. The route he took matches the alleged trail of death discovered by British sniffer dogs who detected the scent of a corpse. But Miss Tanner has now told detectives that the man was heading in a different direction – towards Murat’s home. Police regard her account as one of a series given by the McCanns and their friends to convince them that Madeleine had been kidnapped."
http://gasparstatements.blogspot.co.nz/2010/03/?m=0
If that didn't nearly match what the PJ say that Silvia said it might be dismissed as a work of fiction. It is really funny how "Irish men" turn up at the most convenient times!
There should be a competition as to the number of garbled half-truths that can be crammed into the fewest lines...
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As I have said I wonder why the GNR didn't take a little walk with Jane and sort this issue out on the night. Jane recounts that 3 days later a PJ officer does this very thing with her but unfortunately we don't have any records of that. Looking at her 4th May statement it becomes pretty clear that Silvia totally misunderstood Jane on the night of the 3rd.
She drew a diagram clearly showing the movements. (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_50.jpg)
Jane Tanner did indeed draw a diagram. It shows Gerry and Jez chatting north of the passageway between the Tapas complex and the apartments. She later changed that location. If she changed that detail, why not others?
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Is this irrelevant?
"All members of the group did their shopping at the only supermarket near the complex, the "Batista."
she not being concerned however about it. There are several till-points, more or less five. Twice she went to shop having always been attended at the till by ladies. rogatory Rachael Mariamma Jean Mampilly Oldfield
In that I see the possibility of concern.
There is the concept of concern about the possibility of being served in the supermarket by a male checkout operator.
But she also got the spelling wrong and the PJ and the translators allowed the spelling to be entered wrongly into the file.
Don't forget that the initial statements are answers to (unnoted) questions, except right at the end when they were generally asked if they had anything to add. It may well have been the PJ officer who was interested in the matter.
What do you mean, she got the spelling wrong? Lol. Unless she was asked to spell it for some reason, the officer simply wrote the name as it sounds.
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Don't forget that the initial statements are answers to (unnoted) questions, except right at the end when they were generally asked if they had anything to add. It may well have been the PJ officer who was interested in the matter.
What do you mean, she got the spelling wrong? Lol. Unless she was asked to spell it for some reason, the officer simply wrote the name as it sounds.
But then is Silvia Batista's name spelt correctly? Is it also supposed to be Baptista? it is spelt about 50:50 each way throughout the PJ file.
Does anyone have a photo of her passport? Hopefully it has the correct name on there.
Well what sort of question yields an answer like "she not being concerned however about it. There are several till-points, more or less five. Twice she went to shop having always been attended at the till by ladies"?
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But then is Silvia Batista's name spelt correctly? Is it also supposed to be Baptista? it is spelt about 50:50 each way throughout the PJ file.
Does anyone have a photo of her passport? Hopefully it has the correct name on there.
Well what sort of question yields an answer like "she not being concerned however about it. There are several till-points, more or less five. Twice she went to shop having always been attended at the till by ladies"?
Re Silvia, what does it matter if ever there was a typo? There are hardly 2000 other people it could be.
Re Rachel's statement. Yes, there are lots of questions that she may have been asked.
"Did you and / or any of your group ever need to visit a shop?"
"Yes, all of the group did."
"Which one?"
"The Batista, the only supermarket near the complex."
"Did you notice anything suspicious?"
"No."
"How many tills were there?"
"Four or five."
"How many times did you go there?"
"Twice."
"Were you served by men or women?"
"Women."
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Re Silvia, what does it matter if ever there was a typo? There are hardly 2000 other people it could be.
Re Rachel's statement. Yes, there are lots of questions that she may have been asked.
"Did you and / or any of your group ever need to visit a shop?"
"Yes, all of the group did."
"Which one?"
"The Batista, the only supermarket near the complex."
"Did you notice anything suspicious?"
"No."
"How many tills were there?"
"Four or five."
"How many times did you go there?"
"Twice."
"Were you served by men or women?"
"Women."
OK that was a neat little exercise, I suppose it was to end up with her statement ""she not being concerned however about it. There are several till-points, more or less five. Twice she went to shop having always been attended at the till by ladies"
For since in the statements generally quite often they repeat the question but in this case they didn't.
I do hope they asked ""Did you notice anything suspicious?" But then we'd have "When asked did you notice anything suspicious? the witness replied no."
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OK that was a neat little exercise, I suppose it was to end up with her statement ""she not being concerned however about it. There are several till-points, more or less five. Twice she went to shop having always been attended at the till by ladies"
For since in the statements generally quite often they repeat the question but in this case they didn't.
I do hope they asked ""Did you notice anything suspicious?" But then we'd have "When asked did you notice anything suspicious? the witness replied no."
OK
"Did you notice anything that caused you any concern?"
"No."
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OK
"Did you notice anything that caused you any concern?"
"No."
Definitely in the rogatory interviews the question and answers can be followed like this.
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"All members of the group did their shopping at the only supermarket near the complex, the "Batista."
she not being concerned however about it. There are several till-points, more or less five. Twice she went to shop having always been attended at the till by ladies." Comes from Rachael's interview on the 4th.
What I had noted earlier but I see it again is the the sentence "she not being concerned however about it." does not seem to be completed. Has there been a bit missed in the translation?
The sentence starts with a lower case letter just as if the beginning of the sentence has been accidentally deleted.
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Definitely in the rogatory interviews the question and answers can be followed like this.
The advantage of verbatim statements is that there is a record of both the questions and answers.
The UK apparently used to use the summary statement format, but then changed to verbatim (to find where I read that), due to errors creeping in or arguments over what was actually said - can't remember exactly, will try to find the articel.
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"All members of the group did their shopping at the only supermarket near the complex, the "Batista."
she not being concerned however about it. There are several till-points, more or less five. Twice she went to shop having always been attended at the till by ladies." Comes from Rachael's interview on the 4th.
What I had noted earlier but I see it again is the the sentence "she not being concerned however about it." does not seem to be completed. Has there been a bit missed in the translation?
The sentence starts with a lower case letter just as if the beginning of the sentence has been accidentally deleted.
it might just be grammar. (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_75.jpg)
Has the word Batista at the top. All text appears OK (enough words) but not translated. Maybe should have been a comma rather than a full stop in the English.
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Such an interesting thread, this is.
So people used to meet there for tea and coffee and at a guess catch up with what was going on in PdL .
I wonder if Madeleines abduction could have been planned from there ? Just about 110 metres down the road from 5A and a nice area for relaxing with friends and acquaintances, both sheltered out of the sun and even quieter in the open area outside in the sun.
Might somebody there have befriended the children by giving them sweeties or something nice, or even someone who worked in the supermarket ?
Only my thoughts which are probably incorrect ! But worth considering IMO
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Such an interesting thread, this is.
So people used to meet there for tea and coffee and at a guess catch up with what was going on in PdL .
I wonder if Madeleines abduction could have been planned from there ? Just about 110 metres down the road from 5A and a nice area for relaxing with friends and acquaintances, both sheltered out of the sun and even quieter in the open area outside in the sun.
Might somebody there have befriended the children by giving them sweeties or something nice, or even someone who worked in the supermarket ?
Only my thoughts which are probably incorrect ! But worth considering IMO
Did you ever go to the Baptista supermarket? This courtyard would it be on the South facing side of the building?
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Did you ever go to the Baptista supermarket? This courtyard would it be on the South facing side of the building?
No, but we went past.
I worked out where the open air and the covered (shaded parts) are from G. Earth street scene. It was tricky but eventually i got the views I needed.
The open air bit is at the top of the car park, which is on the western side of Baptistas.
Looking on the plan view on certain different dates, zoom in and you will also see varying numbers of tables and chairs up at the top of that car park.
On the plan you will also see near the top of that car park, a pinky brown roof attached to the main building. When viewed on street scene from the west looking east, there appear to be table and chairs underneath that roof and maybe going further in to the building
I was expecting loads of trees to give the shade, but I think that that is an open walled area under the roof and maybe beyond. The roof gives the shade.
I measured the distance on GE and depending on exactly where Baptistas entrance is, that is approximately correct.
Am off to bed now.
nigh night
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it might just be grammar. (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_75.jpg)
Has the word Batista at the top. All text appears OK (enough words) but not translated. Maybe should have been a comma rather than a full stop in the English.
I think there's a slight glitch in the translation.
All members of the group did their shopping at the only supermarket near the complex, the "Batista."
she not being concerned however about it. There are several till-points, more or less five. Twice she went to shop having always been attended at the till by ladies.
Corresponds to lines 42-44.
but the concerned bit doesn't exist in the original - I think what the PT says is "... near the complex... but which however didn't belong to it. (não pertencendo no entanto ao mismo).
Just whoever translated was trying to formulate the subsequent paragraph about whether she'd noticed any suspicious behaviour in general, and the draft phrase got left in the wrong paragraph by mistake.
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I think there's a slight glitch in the translation.
All members of the group did their shopping at the only supermarket near the complex, the "Batista."
she not being concerned however about it. There are several till-points, more or less five. Twice she went to shop having always been attended at the till by ladies.
Corresponds to lines 42-44.
but the concerned bit doesn't exist in the original - I think what the PT says is "... near the complex... but which however didn't belong to it. (não pertencendo no entanto ao mismo).
Just whoever translated was trying to formulate the subsequent paragraph about whether she'd noticed any suspicious behaviour in general, and the draft phrase got left in the wrong paragraph by mistake.
I think that is a very likely explanation but it has exposed an extremely worrying situation IMO for they are taking an unverified opinion of the PJ inspector and inserting it into the statement of Rachael Oldfield.
Who said or where is the proof the supermarket is unrelated to the complex and or even not involved in the case?
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I think that is a very likely explanation but it has exposed an extremely worrying situation IMO for they are taking an unverified opinion of the PJ inspector and inserting it into the statement of Rachael Oldfield.
Who said or where is the proof the supermarket is unrelated to the complex and or even not involved in the case?
It might simply mean that it's not within the complex itself (i.e., is outside of it) - which it is.
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It might simply mean that it's not within the complex itself (i.e., is outside of it) - which it is.
Well it could be, but what was the implication from that? Was it "Not part of the OC complex therefore the staff there do not need to be interviewed"?
!
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Well it could be, but what was the implication from that? Was it "Not part of the OC complex therefore the staff there do not need to be interviewed"?
!
I find it a bit odd as well that they weren't interviewed (unless they were and I've just missed the statements).
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You've probably answered this already, but what purpose do you think it would have served?
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You've probably answered this already, but what purpose do you think it would have served?
In another thread it was shown (in the USA) that only 1 in 10,000 cases of abduction is due to stranger abduction the other 9999 cases are due to related to people that have had contact with that child. Madeleine had only been in Portugal for 5 days so had very few contacts at that stage but one place was the supermarket. To eliminate those that had contact is essential IMO.
There no reason to believe human behaviour in Portugal would be that much different.
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In another thread it was shown (in the USA) that only 1 in 10,000 cases of abduction is due to stranger abduction the other 9999 cases are due to related to people that have had contact with that child. Madeleine had only been in Portugal for 5 days so had very few contacts at that stage but one place was the supermarket. To eliminate those that had contact is essential IMO.
There no reason to believe human behaviour in Portugal would be that much different.
Did Madeleine ever go to Baptista?
I have seen no evidence that she ever did.
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Did Madeleine ever go to Baptista?
I have seen no evidence that she ever did.
Well in one sentence it was "Kate and Gerry went there", well if they went together I wondered if they took the kids.
To be in the "in contact with the family group" does one actually need to see the kids?
I wonder if it is defined how little contact does one need to have before one is no longer thought of as a "stranger"?
As you discovered it was possible Baptista Supermarket had CCTV camera at the time, so it would be possible that the footage could have showed someone out on the street at that hour.
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In another thread it was shown (in the USA) that only 1 in 10,000 cases of abduction is due to stranger abduction the other 9999 cases are due to related to people that have had contact with that child. Madeleine had only been in Portugal for 5 days so had very few contacts at that stage but one place was the supermarket. To eliminate those that had contact is essential IMO.
There no reason to believe human behaviour in Portugal would be that much different.
Rob, check out attempted non-parental abductions.
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Rob, check out attempted non-parental abductions.
99.9% is actually 999 out of 1000 not 10,000. My arithmetic was wrong again.
"In another thread it was shown (in the USA) that only 1 in 1,000 cases of abduction is due to stranger abduction the other 999 cases are due to related to people that have had contact with that child. Madeleine had only been in Portugal for 5 days so had very few contacts at that stage but one place was the supermarket. To eliminate those that had contact is essential IMO.
There no reason to believe human behaviour in Portugal would be that much different."
"attempted non-parental abductions." Does anyone know much about attempted cases?
Let's start with some definitions: from http://www.childabduction.org.uk/index.php/child-abduction
"Definitions
Child abduction is the unauthorised removal or retention of a minor from a parent or anyone with legal responsibility for the child.
Child abduction can be committed by parents or other family members; by people known but not related to the victim, such as neighbours, friends and acquaintances; and by strangers.
Legal definitions
The criminal offence of child abduction is defined in the provisions of the Child Abduction Act, 1984. This applies, in different forms, in each of the four countries of the UK.
Parental child abduction
The Act makes it a criminal offence for anyone “connected with” a child under the age of 16 to “take or send” that child out of the UK without the appropriate consent. “Connected with” includes parents, guardians or a person with a residence order or custody of the child. “Appropriate consent” is the consent of the mother, the father (if he has parental responsibility), the guardian or anyone with a residence order, parental responsibility or the leave (permission) of the court.
Non-parental child abduction
The Child Abduction Act also makes it a criminal offence for “other persons” to “take or detain” a child under the age of 16 without lawful authority or reasonable excuse. “Other persons” are people other than the child’s parent, guardian or a person with parental responsibility for the child. The majority of non-parental child abductions recorded by police are perpetrated by strangers or by people exploiting young people¹.
Kidnapping
The offence of kidnapping exists in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, and is defined at common law as “the taking or carrying away of one person by another, by force or fraud, without the consent of the person taken or carried away and without lawful excuse. It must involve an attack on or loss of that person’s liberty” ². An offence of kidnapping can be recorded for both child and adult victims.
Scottish offences of abduction and child stealing
In Scotland, there exists another common law offence of abduction: “the carrying off or confining of a person forcibly and without lawful authority” ³. Abduction can be recorded for child and adult victims. In addition, a common law offence of child stealing (‘plagium’) can be committed against children below the age of puberty (under 12 years for girls and under 14 years for boys) when the abductor has no parental responsibility for the child³.
More information on the law and child abduction is available in our briefing paper: Child Abduction: The Legislative Jigsaw.
Victim perceptions
Not all children who are abducted perceive themselves to have been victimised. For example, some children who are taken by a parent do not identify either themselves as a victim of abduction or the parent as an abductor. Likewise, some young people may willingly go with, or to, a person they regard to be their boyfriend, despite parents and/or police perceiving the relationship to be exploitative. In other cases, individuals may be abducted but more readily identify themselves as victims of a sex offence, robbery, or assault etc.
Police-recorded offences of child abduction
Each year in the UK police forces record more than 500 offences of child abduction. These include completed abductions (where a child is actually taken) and attempted abductions. However, many more incidents go unreported to the police [link to briefing paper on Surveys] and some may not be recorded. See Police-recorded crime briefing [link].
In 2014/15 police forces in England and Wales recorded 822 offences of child abduction⁴. This compares to 565 offences the previous year; an increase of 45%. The Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) recorded 43 offences of child abduction, compared to 40 in 2013/14⁵. PACT’s research indicates that non-parental child abduction has been increasing at a faster rate than parental abductions⁶.
england and wales
northern ireland
who abducts
Kidnapping
In addition, police in England and Wales recorded 2,198 kidnappings in 2014/15⁴, an increase of 27% on the previous year. The Police Service of Northern Ireland recorded 45 kidnappings in 2014/15⁵, a decrease of 18%. It is estimated that approximately one-fifth of these offences involve victims under the age of 18³.
Scotland
In 2014/15 Police Scotland recorded 234 offences of abduction (involving both child and adult victims)7 . In addition, Police Scotland recorded one offence of child stealing/plagium in 2013/147 .
Who abducts children?
Over four-fifths of completed abductions recorded by the police involve a perpetrator known to the child. Less than one-fifth are committed by a stranger¹.
Approximately one-quarter of all police-recorded offences (including attempted abductions) involve parental abduction⁶. Many more cases of international parental child abduction go unreported to the police.
Nearly 60 per cent of completed abductions recorded by police are perpetrated by someone known, but not related to, the child. These include acquaintances, neighbours, boyfriends and ex-partners of parents¹. Many cases involve exploitation or grooming.
Nearly one-fifth of completed abductions recorded by police are perpetrated by a stranger (someone who was not known to, or recognised by, the victim). That’s nearly 50 a year. However, there are roughly four times as many attempted abductions by a stranger recorded by police¹."
What I find is no real definition of who is a known person and who is unknown person. In the UK the ratio is in the order of 25% not 1/1000 according to these figures but no definition of who is a known person and who is unknown person.
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IMO, the terms aren't always the same from one jurisdiction to another. The crimes ultimately found to have been committed don't always appear on the same database. Ages aren't always the same, in terms of the definition of a minor. Some forces don't report the same level of detail, and some don't respond to surveys.
When I looked into it, it was apples, oranges and... bricks.
Question: why only take into account successful non-parental abductions? An attempted one is only one that didn't work out as planned, but someone tried.
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IMO, the terms aren't always the same from one jurisdiction to another. The crimes ultimately found to have been committed don't always appear on the same database. Ages aren't always the same, in terms of the definition of a minor. Some forces don't report the same level of detail, and some don't respond to surveys.
When I looked into it, it was apples, oranges and... bricks.
Question: why only take into account successful non-parental abductions? An attempted one is only one that didn't work out as planned, but someone tried.
Near Miss v Major Incident. See H,W. Heinrich. Then maybe you already have?
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Near Miss v Major Incident. See H,W. Heinrich. Then maybe you already have?
Never heard of him. Are you referring to this?
https://www.aist.org/AIST/aist/AIST/Publications/safety%20first/14_dec_safety_first.pdf
Fine, a near miss is a leading indicator for future security measures, but I'm not sure that that is the same point. Mine was that successful stranger abductions are indeed rare, but if taken in conjunction with failed attempts, the percentage of strangers posing a danger is higher than that assumed to be the case, based on successful ones alone.
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Never heard of him. Are you referring to this?
https://www.aist.org/AIST/aist/AIST/Publications/safety%20first/14_dec_safety_first.pdf
Fine, a near miss is a leading indicator for future security measures, but I'm not sure that that is the same point. Mine was that successful stranger abductions are indeed rare, but if taken in conjunction with failed attempts, the percentage of strangers posing a danger is higher than that assumed to be the case, based on successful ones alone.
It is the same principle if you take a failed attempt as a near miss.
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Never heard of him. Are you referring to this?
https://www.aist.org/AIST/aist/AIST/Publications/safety%20first/14_dec_safety_first.pdf
Fine, a near miss is a leading indicator for future security measures, but I'm not sure that that is the same point. Mine was that successful stranger abductions are indeed rare, but if taken in conjunction with failed attempts, the percentage of strangers posing a danger is higher than that assumed to be the case, based on successful ones alone.
You would have to include all the failed attempts and near misses for known people as well then and will that balance out the figures? I think failed attempts and near misses will be too hard to recognise and therefore not included in any study.
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What is the spelling of The Supermarket? Batista or Baptista. Around here there is always a P in it, as in John The Baptist, in English. No E or A on the end.
However, no one has ever produced any evidence that The McCanns bought any quantity of Bleach at all.
But this Thread is going Off Topic, and while I have been a bit lax of late, I am now going to have to insist.
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What is the spelling of The Supermarket? Batista or Baptista. Around here there is always a P in it, as in John The Baptist, in English. No E or A on the end.
However, no one has ever produced any evidence that The McCanns bought any quantity of Bleach at all.
But this Thread is going Off Topic, and while I have been a bit lax of late, I am now going to have to insist.
According to the rather large sign on it shown in the pics posted earlier, given the pics are of the right place of course, it is "Baptista".
If the McCanns paid in "readies" it would be hard work to prove they bought anything there.
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According to the rather large sign on it shown in the pics posted earlier, given the pics are of the right place of course, it is "Baptista".
If the McCanns paid in "readies" it would be hard work to prove they bought anything there.
Thank you, Alice for that. That is a really good one. Pronounced Batista. But see how easy it is. Even this Thread is incorrectly titled.
However, I do find it difficult to see The McCanns walking out with large quantities of Bleach, to go unnoticed, even if they did pay with cash.
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Thank you, Alice for that. That is a really good one. Pronounced Batista. But see how easy it is. Even this Thread is incorrectly titled.
However, I do find it difficult to see The McCanns walking out with large quantities of Bleach, to go unnoticed, even if they did pay with cash.
I started the thread before I was aware of the correct spelling.
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I started the thread before I was aware of the correct spelling.
Research is all, Our Kid. But you do well generally. But with Translation Errors it all got a bit beyond a joke for me. So sorry if I appeared to be putting you down.
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Research is all, Our Kid. But you do well generally. But with Translation Errors it all got a bit beyond a joke for me. So sorry if I appeared to be putting you down.
I had noted the error but it served to highlight the point I was making how difficult it is to know whether it is Batiste, Baptiste, Baptista or Batista
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Thank you, Alice for that. That is a really good one. Pronounced Batista. But see how easy it is. Even this Thread is incorrectly titled.
However, I do find it difficult to see The McCanns walking out with large quantities of Bleach, to go unnoticed, even if they did pay with cash.
Other members of the Tapas group had probably purchased bleach due to the d&v suffered during the week.
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Other members of the Tapas group had probably purchased bleach due to the d&v suffered during the week.
Is there an itemised inventory of stock prior to and after the alleged incident's.
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I had noted the error but it served to highlight the point I was making how difficult it is to know whether it is Batiste, Baptiste, Baptista or Batista
B*shite. But never mind. It was just another attempt to muddy the water. And there is enough of that going on at the moment.
I don't understand the purpose of half of the Threads on this Forum just now, but they all seem to come down to yet another opportunity to bash The McCanns.
Let's see a Thread to bash Amaral, and see how long that lasts.
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Is there an itemised inventory of stock prior to and after the alleged incident's.
I manage Holiday Homes. There is usually a bottle of Bleach in the cupboard. But there isn't an inventory of how much washing up liquid is on site.
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I manage Holiday Homes. There is usually a bottle of Bleach in the cupboard. But there isn't an inventory of how much washing up liquid is on site.
A supermarket would probably have one though surely.
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Why should a holiday maker require additional cleaning materials? They would be provided by the holiday company
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A supermarket would probably have one though surely.
Why?
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Why should a holiday maker require additional cleaning materials? They would be provided by the holiday company
In some quantity, no doubt. The Owners of the properties that I manage leave some cleaning materials at the start of the season, but after they run out then the holiday makers buy their own. But I can't say that Bleach was ever a problem.
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Why?
Stock control.
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Stock control.
So who bought what? You think that the supermarket knows?
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So who bought what? You think that the supermarket knows?
No,I think you are misunderstanding, if a supposed quantity of bleach was to have been purchased would there not be a paper trail,either receipts or stock control.
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No,I think you are misunderstanding, if a supposed quantity of bleach was to have been purchased would there not be a paper trail,either receipts or stock control.
Who is suggesting a quantity of bleach was purchased?
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Thread title Baptista supermarket.
Who is suggesting a quantity of bleach was purchased?
However, I do find it difficult to see The McCanns walking out with large quantities of Bleach, to go unnoticed, even if they did pay with cash.
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So no one has suggested that the McCanns actually did this? OK.
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So no one has suggested that the McCanns actually did this? OK.
Ask Eleanor she broached the subject.
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No,I think you are misunderstanding, if a supposed quantity of bleach was to have been purchased would there not be a paper trail,either receipts or stock control.
But there wasn't. So where do we go from there?
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Who is suggesting a quantity of bleach was purchased?
God knows. But it has been suggested. Never to be proven, of course.
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But there wasn't. So where do we go from there?
If I was a bit more hardy,outside to build a snow man.
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If I was a bit more hardy,outside to build a snow man.
And i can't be bothered to Delete that either.
Beware of what you wish for.
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Thank you, Alice for that. That is a really good one. Pronounced Batista. But see how easy it is. Even this Thread is incorrectly titled.
However, I do find it difficult to see The McCanns walking out with large quantities of Bleach, to go unnoticed, even if they did pay with cash.
How not to draw attention to yourself in one easy lesson? !
I hadn't reached as far as bleach; I was just thinking it if they paid in readies it would be difficult to prove they bought so much as a bag of Haribo Ositos for the kids.
Going off on one for a bit as is my wont:
1) One presumes the Drs McCann are not idiots and know a bit about chemistry.
2) We know with reasonable certainty they could not understand the Portuguese language in either its written or spoken form.
3) Taking 1 as fact they would know enough that a chlorine based bleach would not do the job thus they would need an oxidant.
So far so good.
How to buy an oxidising bleach?
IMO no one can be that much of an anorak about bleach they would know from trade names which was which.
Neither do I see the good doctors standing blocking up an aisle with an interpreter who is reading off bleach bottle labels to them. Or better yet the good doctors taking the top off a few bottles for a sneaky "nose test" but that would be unreliable and I am sure someone will drop by shortly to tell us why.
http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/detecting-evidence-after-bleaching.html
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How not to draw attention to yourself in one easy lesson? !
I hadn't reached as far as bleach; I was just thinking it if they paid in readies it would be difficult to prove they bought so much as a bag of Haribo Ositos for the kids.
Going off on one for a bit as is my wont:
1) One presumes the Drs McCann are not idiots and know a bit about chemistry.
2) We know with reasonable certainty they could not understand the Portuguese language in either its written or spoken form.
3) Taking 1 as fact they would know enough that a chlorine based bleach would not do the job thus they would need an oxidant.
So far so good.
How to buy an oxidising bleach?
IMO no one can be that much of an anorak about bleach they would know from trade names which was which.
Neither do I see the good doctors standing blocking up an aisle with an interpreter who is reading off bleach bottle labels to them. Or better yet the good doctors taking the top off a few bottles for a sneaky "nose test" but that would be unreliable and I am sure someone will drop by shortly to tell us why.
http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/detecting-evidence-after-bleaching.html
No doubt Admin will not see this as a disruption. But don't try me too far.
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No doubt Admin will not see this as a disruption. But don't try me too far.
Gosh! fancy my receiving a bollocking for writing something supportive of the McCanns ?.
Damned if you do damned if you don't it would seem.
Never have I been so gobsmackedly dumbfounded !
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Gosh! fancy my receiving a bollocking for writing something supportive of the McCanns ?.
Damned if you do damned if you don't it would seem.
Never have I been so gobsmackedly dumbfounded !
Never mind Alice, for what it's worth I enjoyed your post.
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No,I think you are misunderstanding, if a supposed quantity of bleach was to have been purchased would there not be a paper trail,either receipts or stock control.
We don't know what was being purchased but if the supermarket had CCTV on the outside of the building they could have had CCTV over the checkouts as well.
On the 4th Kate told the PJ they were purchasing from the Baptista Supermarket. We don't know what an exploration along that line of inquiry would have revealed.
There is no end of crimes solved assisted by the analysis of recent purchases.
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The only oxidizing bleach available would be in the, hair dye section in very small bottles
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It might be handy to know what coverage rate is necessary just to have a sense check like.
Then we could rule in or out based on what looks reasonable.
1 litre or 1 cubic metre of hydrogen peroxide ?
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You would have to include all the failed attempts and near misses for known people as well then and will that balance out the figures? I think failed attempts and near misses will be too hard to recognise and therefore not included in any study.
Little Carolina Santos' case was a failed attempted abduction and only about 18-25 miles from PdL. and just over four months before Madeleine vanished. Had the abduction succeeded would Madeleine have been abducted four months later?
A very pretty little blond girl, aged 3, Carolina was playing on the pavement outside her parents cafe/bar on Christmas day and a man came along and said he would take her to play with some other children. Her parents suddenly noticed her missing and went outside to see her walking off in the distance, hand in hand with a man. They yelled her and she came running back. He vanished around a corner / bend
This was one of a series of 8 abductions / missing children in close locations, and at fairly regular intervals, in the Porto and the Algarve regions.
Had Caroilna vanished and not been 'rescued' would Madeleine have vanished 4 months afterwards?
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Little Carolina Santos' case was a failed attempted abduction and only about 18-25 miles from PdL. and just over four months before Madeleine vanished. Had the abduction succeeded would Madeleine have been abducted four months later?
A very pretty little blond girl, aged 3, Carolina was playing on the pavement outside her parents cafe/bar on Christmas day and a man came along and said he would take her to play with some other children. Her parents suddenly noticed her missing and went outside to see her walking off in the distance, hand in hand with a man. They yelled her and she came running back. He vanished around a corner / bend
This was one of a series of 8 abductions / missing children in close locations, and at fairly regular intervals, in the Porto and the Algarve regions.
Had Caroilna vanished and not been 'rescued' would Madeleine have vanished 4 months afterwards?
More about child abductions in the Porto and Luz areas of Portugal. Eight in all and centred on the two places. Approx every 18 months from 1991 thru to 2007
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3542.0
(First post) which is closely based upon a post that I had previously posted details the eight missing children