UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2018, 09:28:02 PM
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Pedro do Carmo says it was "an honor to serve Justice, serving PJ for 14 years," emphasizing the "privilege" to do so alongside Almeida Rodrigues. "Knowing who will succeed the current national director, I can only say that PJ is in good hands," he finished.
https://www.publico.pt/2018/05/15/sociedade/noticia/policia-judiciaria-vai-ter-novo-director-1830121
MADDIE COP TOP JOB Police chief who made Madeleine McCann’s parents suspects now heads Portugal’s crime squad
Kate McCann, 50, once called him 'humanitarian and sensitive' — but he was a driving force in making her and Gerry suspects
By Gerard Couzens
15th May 2018, 7:30 pm
A POLICE chief involved in making Madeleine McCann’s parents suspects after her disappearance has been named the new head of Portugal’s serious crime squad.
Luis Neves, current chief of Portugal’s counter-terror unit, replaces outgoing Policia Judiciaria director Almeida Rodrigues next month.
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/nintchdbpict000406446938.jpg?strip=all&w=622&quality=100)
Neves was called a “breath of fresh air” when he joined the inquiry three weeks after Madeleine disappeared from a Praia da Luz apartment in May 2007.
Kate McCann, 50, once called Neves “humanitarian and sensitive”.
But he was a driving force, with colleague Goncalo Amaral, in making Kate and husband Gerry “arguidos” from September 2007 to July 2008.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6295328/police-chief-who-made-madeleine-mccanns-parents-suspects-now-heads-portugals-crime-squad/
https://www.tsf.pt/sociedade/seguranca/interior/almeida-rodrigues-vai-ser-substituido-por-luis-neves-a-frente-da-pj-9342662.html
Luis Neves stated bluntly that they didn’t believe my version of events. It ‘didn’t fit’ with what they knew. Didn’t fit? What did they know? I was sobbing now, well past the stage of silent tears and stifled sniffs. I began to wail hysterically, drawing breath in desperate gasps.
Once again Gerry wanted to know if the case had now become a murder inquiry. The answer was indirect: ‘You can probably guess that from our lack of response.’ In a slightly threatening manner, Luís Neves asked why I wasn’t looking him straight in the eye. There was no reason, other than that I was incapable of looking at anyone properly: my own eyes were so swollen and sore that I was struggling to keep them from closing completely. Finally, Gerry tried to establish when – and if – we would be having another meeting with them. ‘The next time we meet it will be across the table.’ The message behind this rather Delphic statement was clear: there would be no more informal meetings.(Madeleine)
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Obviously being involved in the McCann case hasn't damaged his career.
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Police chief who made Madeleine McCann’s parents suspects now heads Portugal’s crime squad
Kate McCann, 50, once called him 'humanitarian and sensitive' — but he was a driving force in making her and Gerry suspects
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Police chief with McCann case history new top cop in Portugal
A senior detective who investigated the 2007 disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been named Portugal's new chief of police.
Luis Neves, who previously headed up Portugal's counter-terrorism unit, will become the director of the Policia Judiciaria in June.
In the days after Maddie vanished, Neves assisted the massive police search for Madeleine because of his counter-terror background and experience in hostage taking and abduction situations.
When three-year-old Madeleine disappeared from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz on Portugal's Algarve on May 3, 2007, abduction was the first police line of inquiry.
However, as the investigation deepened, detectives also explored other possibilities - including declaring Maddie's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, formal suspects.
The McCanns have always denied playing any part in the disappearance of Madeleine, who was just days away from her fourth birthday. Both had their status of formal suspect lifted when the 14-month case was shelved in 2008, with police citing a lack of evidence to move the investigation forward. The McCanns have maintained from the outset that Madeleine was abducted.
Neves is known to be friends with Goncalo Amaral, the Portuguese detective who led the McCann investigation before he was abruptly removed from the case in October, 2007.
https://www.9news.com.au/world/2018/05/16/15/36/police-chief-with-madeleine-mccann-case-history-new-top-cop-in-portugal
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Police chief who made Madeleine McCann’s parents suspects now heads Portugal’s crime squad
Kate McCann, 50, once called him 'humanitarian and sensitive' — but he was a driving force in making her and Gerry suspects
I'd suspect it won't be his only mistake.
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I'd suspect it won't be his only mistake.
Why was it a mistake - is that IYO.
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I'd suspect it won't be his only mistake.
SY trump that imo in going after some alleged failed burglary.
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SY trump that imo in going after some alleged failed burglary.
I don't agree.
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Why was it a mistake - is that IYO.
Any sentence starting "I'd suspect it ...." is obviously opinion.
Why was it a mistake? Because it was wrong IMO.
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Any sentence starting "I'd suspect it ...." is obviously opinion.
Why was it a mistake? Because it was wrong IMO.
Well it wasn't wrong in his opinion....and after all he is.
MADDIE COP TOP JOB Police chief who made Madeleine McCann’s parents suspects now heads Portugal’s crime squad
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Well it wasn't wrong in his opinion....and after all he is.
MADDIE COP TOP JOB Police chief who made Madeleine McCann’s parents suspects now heads Portugal’s crime squad
I have no reason to think bad about him, but that does not mean that from time to time he may have made a mistake.
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He may well realise it was a mistake now.... If you read his testimony at amarals trial it seems he believed the dogs evidence was highly significant and that they had been instrumental in solving many cases... He was probably convinced maddies body had been in the apartment which would make the abduction thesis impossible.... Obviously things have now moved on IMO
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Well it wasn't wrong in his opinion....and after all he is.
MADDIE COP TOP JOB Police chief who made Madeleine McCann’s parents suspects now heads Portugal’s crime squad
I would think his opinion may well have changed now due to the developments in tha last ten years
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He may well realise it was a mistake now.... If you read his testimony at amarals trial it seems he believed the dogs evidence was highly significant and that they had been instrumental in solving many cases... He was probably convinced maddies body had been in the apartment which would make the abduction thesis impossible.... Obviously things have now moved on IMO
Not necessarily - as you say OYO.
Asked if it was the dog’s reaction that led police to make the McCanns formal suspects in the investigation, he said: “No, they were already suspected of simulating a kidnapping and concealing the body.”
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/151405/Maddie-died-in-apartment-court-hears
Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida told the court that he believed the couple, from Rothley, Leicestershire, were directly involved in Madeleine’s disappearance – a theory he said was shared by Portuguese and British officers working on the case.
He said: “The conclusion that was arrived at was that Madeleine McCann died at the apartment and the McCann couple simulated the abduction to hide the fact that they had not taken care of their children.
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I would think his opinion may well have changed now due to the developments in tha last ten years
Well that you don't know do you.
I could say - his opinion hasn't changed after 10 years imo
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Well that you don't know do you.
I could say - his opinion hasn't changed after 10 years imo
You have just quoted almeida... Not Neves
I woyld think he now realises that his initial understanding of the alerts was wrong... Have a look at grimes rogs
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He may well realise it was a mistake now.... If you read his testimony at amarals trial it seems he believed the dogs evidence was highly significant and that they had been instrumental in solving many cases... He was probably convinced maddies body had been in the apartment which would make the abduction thesis impossible.... Obviously things have now moved on IMO
He was right, dogs are an important tool for the police and I have no doubt those canines who were involved in the Maddie case will eventually be vindicated.
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Members are respectfully reminded:
The thread topic is Luis Neves' appointment and any impact that may have on Madeleine's case.
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Neves said that the parents were already suspected before the dog’s findings ? Imo I don’t think anything will have changed his mind .
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Bloggers don't always get it right and sometimes they get it wrong and Paulo Reis is no exception to that rule.
Wrong
Wednesday, 3 October 2007
Madeleine's case: Luis Neves will replace Gonçalo Amaral
The man that was the second-in-command of the investigation lead by Gonçalo Amaral, Criminal Coordinator Luis Neves, will replace him. The national director of PJ has considered the possibility of sending somebody from Lisbon, but he was warned of a “strong reaction” from the dozens of detectives involved in the investigation. P Reis
Right
Tuesday, 9 October 2007
Paulo Rebelo is the new man in charge of Madeleine's case
A national deputy-director of Polícia Judiciária was appointed to replace Gonçalo Amaral in the investigation of Madeleine's disappearance. P Reis
Was he also wrong in his assertion that Amaral was Neves' boss? If not, would that not put a different perspective on whose thesis of events might be the more persuasive?
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Neves said that the parents were already suspected before the dog’s findings ? Imo I don’t think anything will have changed his mind .
Was that his opinion or was that the opinion that he knew had been the driving force of the investigation personified by the headline about 'a badly told story' in the Portuguese press hours into Madeleine's disappearance?
Neves stayed in the PJ and prospered.
Amaral left the PJ and prospered. Wonder who made the better choice?
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Was that his opinion or was that the opinion that he knew had been the driving force of the investigation personified by the headline about 'a badly told story' in the Portuguese press hours into Madeleine's disappearance?
Neves stayed in the PJ and prospered.
Amaral left the PJ and prospered. Wonder who made the better choice?
I wouldn’t say it was his opinion that he knew had been the driving force of the investigation ,more that it was his certain knowledge of that fact .
Whatever, his predecessor has stated the position is in [ Neves] good hands ?
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I wouldn’t say it was his opinion that he knew had been the driving force of the investigation ,more that it was his certain knowledge of that fact .
Whatever, his predecessor has stated the position is in [ Neves] good hands ?
I would say it will make no difference as the PJ dont seem to be much anyway and the evidence that was used to make them suspects was not confirmed... According to the final report.. So Neves may well have a completely different view on the mccanns than he did in 2007
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I would say it will make no difference as the PJ dont seem to be much anyway and the evidence that was used to make them suspects was not confirmed... According to the final report.. So Neves may well have a completely different view on the mccanns than he did in 2007
Supposition and hope on your part that he may well have a completely different view of the McCanns than he did in 2007 because what has changed ? They havn’t done a thing to lift the cloud of suspicion that hangs over them .
Fingers have been pointed ,other suspects have been investigated to no avail .
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Supposition and hope on your part that he may well have a completely different view of the McCanns than he did in 2007 because what has changed ? They havn’t done a thing to lift the cloud of suspicion that hangs over them .
Fingers have been pointed ,other suspects have been investigated to no avail .
What has changedsince 2007 is that they are no longer arguidos and the archiving report acknowledged that there was a lack of any evidence against them. Also, at least two police forces have made it clear that they are no longer suspects.
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Supposition and hope on your part that he may well have a completely different view of the McCanns than he did in 2007 because what has changed ? They havn’t done a thing to lift the cloud of suspicion that hangs over them .
Fingers have been pointed ,other suspects have been investigated to no avail .
If you read the archiving report you will see what has changed.... From when the mccanns were made suspects...
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What has changedsince 2007 is that they are no longer arguidos and the archiving report acknowledged that there was a lack of any evidence against them. Also, at least two police forces have made it clear that they are no longer suspects.
If you refer to the Supreme Court’s decision , you will find words opposing what you say here .
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If you refer to the Supreme Court’s decision , you will find words opposing what you say here .
The Supreme Court was ruling on a civil case not a criminal case. You would have trouble transferring the word "suspect" from one legal system to the other.
One of the famous examples was OJ Simpson found not guilty of murder in the criminal court but liable in the civil case against him. (From memory, so I stand to be corrected if you think I'm wrong.)
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If you refer to the Supreme Court’s decision , you will find words opposing what you say here .
Really? Please reproduce the cite from the decision which states that there was sufficient evidence to consider the McCanns may have had a hand in their child’s disappearance.
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Really? Please reproduce the cite from the decision which states that there was sufficient evidence to consider the McCanns may have had a hand in their child’s disappearance.
Now that isn't what I said at all ?
Portuguese Supreme Court judges said the lifting of their status as 'arguidos', or formal suspects, and the archiving of the criminal case into Maddie's disappearance did not mean they were innocent.
They stated "It should not be said that the appellants were cleared via the ruling announcing the archiving of the criminal case"
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Back to the thread title,I expect it'll make as much difference as the changes in the hierarchy of the MET.
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Really? Please reproduce the cite from the decision which states that there was sufficient evidence to consider the McCanns may have had a hand in their child’s disappearance.
We've argued this a million times. It is the contrast between having enough evidence to convict them or having enough evidence to clear them.
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I wouldn’t say it was his opinion that he knew had been the driving force of the investigation ,more that it was his certain knowledge of that fact .
Whatever, his predecessor has stated the position is in [ Neves] good hands ?
It wasn't actually a fact though was it? It may have been a fact there was suspicion. It may have been a fact there was a conviction of guilt. It may have been a fact that the case coordinator developed a thesis which drove him to the extent that he carried it into civilian life with him to write a reputation destroying book based on it.
However all that was in the bad old days at the end of 2007. By early 2008 the misinterpretation of what evidence there was and the lack of evidence against the three official suspects led not to a change in direction but to the archiving of Madeleine's case.
Obviously Neves continued his police career and continued climbing the ladder and making a name for himself.
The Policia Judiciaria to which he has dedicated his working life and which he now heads carried out a review of the evidence and as a result recommended the reopening of the investigation into Madeleine's case.
The thread asks will he have an impact on Madeleine's case? His nickname is "the diplomat" and I think career policeman that he is he will indeed have an impact and I think it will be a positive one.
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Now that isn't what I said at all ?
Portuguese Supreme Court judges said the lifting of their status as 'arguidos', or formal suspects, and the archiving of the criminal case into Maddie's disappearance did not mean they were innocent.
They stated "It should not be said that the appellants were cleared via the ruling announcing the archiving of the criminal case"
Welcome to the forum Snowgirl.
Thank you for including a snip quoting the High Court judges. Please also provide a link to enable members to read it for themselves.
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Now that isn't what I said at all ?
Portuguese Supreme Court judges said the lifting of their status as 'arguidos', or formal suspects, and the archiving of the criminal case into Maddie's disappearance did not mean they were innocent.
They stated "It should not be said that the appellants were cleared via the ruling announcing the archiving of the criminal case"
Didn't they really mean: "It should not be said that the appellants were cleared [in the Civil Court] via the ruling announcing the archiving of the criminal case"
The contrast in standards between the civil and criminal systems again.
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Welcome to the forum Snowgirl.
Thank you for including a snip quoting the High Court judges. Please also provide a link to enable members to read it for themselves.
Thankyou Brietta .
There's already been a 43 page topic in here on the Supreme Court decision and what they said ?
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We've argued this a million times. It is the contrast between having enough evidence to convict them or having enough evidence to clear them.
It seems I am not allowed the right of reply tonight, so no further comment from me.
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It seems I am not allowed the right of reply tonight, so no further comment from me.
I'm only discussing the situation, I have not reported any posts. It is a matter of keeping on topic, which is difficult even for myself.
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Police chief with McCann case history new top cop in Portugal
A senior detective who investigated the 2007 disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been named Portugal's new chief of police.
Luis Neves, who previously headed up Portugal's counter-terrorism unit, will become the director of the Policia Judiciaria in June.
In the days after Maddie vanished, Neves assisted the massive police search for Madeleine because of his counter-terror background and experience in hostage taking and abduction situations.
When three-year-old Madeleine disappeared from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz on Portugal's Algarve on May 3, 2007, abduction was the first police line of inquiry.
However, as the investigation deepened, detectives also explored other possibilities - including declaring Maddie's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, formal suspects.
The McCanns have always denied playing any part in the disappearance of Madeleine, who was just days away from her fourth birthday. Both had their status of formal suspect lifted when the 14-month case was shelved in 2008, with police citing a lack of evidence to move the investigation forward. The McCanns have maintained from the outset that Madeleine was abducted.
Neves is known to be friends with Goncalo Amaral, the Portuguese detective who led the McCann investigation before he was abruptly removed from the case in October, 2007.
https://www.9news.com.au/world/2018/05/16/15/36/police-chief-with-madeleine-mccann-case-history-new-top-cop-in-portugal
In red bolden. This is quite a different story from the UK Media reports from 'friends of the family' pals' and other 'sauces'.
SO will the supporters now gang up on this guy and trash his name and police methodology? HE is the EXPERT in kidnapping and Abduction- not the parents or the UK media.
I don't think he will let the family leaks affect his theory as to what happened to MBM. I am sure he will accept MBM was abducted when the person/s are charged.
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Thankyou Brietta .
There's already been a 43 page topic in here on the Supreme Court decision and what they said ?
A cite supporting the information you have posted has been requested. Please supply one. As a Newbie you may be unfamiliar with forum etiquette which places the onus on you to provide links to information you post. Please allow me to assure you that you are not unique in being requested to provide a cite, most members are asked to do so at one time or another.
The courtesy of compliance with such a request is expected.
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A cite supporting the information you have posted has been requested. Please supply one. As a Newbie you may be unfamiliar with forum etiquette which places the onus on you to provide links to information you post. Please allow me to assure you that you are not unique in being requested to provide a cite, most members are asked to do so at one time or another.
The courtesy of compliance with such a request is expected.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4206214/Court-says-Madeleine-McCann-s-parents-HAVEN-T-cleared.html
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4206214/Court-says-Madeleine-McCann-s-parents-HAVEN-T-cleared.html
Thank you. That is much appreciated, I'm sure it won't take you long to get the hang of the forum protocols.
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Well that you don't know do you.
I could say - his opinion hasn't changed after 10 years imo
I don't think anyone in the PJ has changed their opinion in this.
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I don't think anyone in the PJ has changed their opinion in this.
Some of what you write is true IMO.
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I would think his opinion may well have changed now due to the developments in tha last ten years
Developments? I was unaware they have discovered what befell Madeleine McCann.
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Developments? I was unaware they have discovered what befell Madeleine McCann.
One development as I see it was not one of the persons of interest that OG requested to interview turned out to be involved. Luis Neves must have been very pleased with that so I can’t see that anything will have changed his mind .
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One development as I see it was not one of the persons of interest that OG requested to interview turned out to be involved. Luis Neves must have been very pleased with that so I can’t see that anything will have changed his mind .
I think those statements warrant an "IMO". We have no idea if the SY interviews of several persons of interest & arguidos back in 2014 resulted in them being eliminated from the investigation.
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So what do you think happened then ? They were interviewed but still considered persons of interest ?
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I think those statements warrant an "IMO". We have no idea if the SY interviews of several persons of interest & arguidos back in 2014 resulted in them being eliminated from the investigation.
You don't think "as I see it" is the same as IMO ?
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I think those statements warrant an "IMO". We have no idea if the SY interviews of several persons of interest & arguidos back in 2014 resulted in them being eliminated from the investigation.
Rowley 2017 said as much.
Q: How old were the suspects because I think you interviewed them originally through the Portuguese beginning of July 2014?
MR: By the end of the year we were happy to have brought them out and we were moving on to other parts of the investigation.
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I think those statements warrant an "IMO". We have no idea if the SY interviews of several persons of interest & arguidos back in 2014 resulted in them being eliminated from the investigation.
The same could be said of the McCanns,they may not be suspects but no one has ever said they have been eliminated from the investigation.
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Rowley 2017 said as much.
Wasn't that merely referring to the 3 alleged burglars?
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So what do you think happened then ? They were interviewed but still considered persons of interest ?
I have absolutely no idea, given that they were all apparently cleared by the original investigation.
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Wasn't that merely referring to the 3 alleged burglars?
Yes,but your post referred to persons of interest,which they would be rather than witness's like Murat and quite a few others later in 2014.Although this article refers to persons of interest in the same breath as witness.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30115913
This caveat ought be added to anything emanating from the British news outlets imo.
A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: "Scotland Yard is not prepared to provide a running commentary."
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Yes,but your post referred to persons of interest,which they would be rather than witness's like Murat and quite a few others later in 2014.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30115913
I did include "and arguidos" which was the status granted to the 3 burglars & Malinka.
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You don't think "as I see it" is the same as IMO ?
It probably is. I apologise to Snowgirl as I hadn't read John's pm about the revised use of IMO. Presumably there will be no further problems when referring to abduction as facts in our opinions.
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I have absolutely no idea, given that they were all apparently cleared by the original investigation.
What makes you think the three suspected burglars were cleared by the original investigation?
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Neves was certainly heavily involved in the McCann case. It was he and Encarnacao who met with the McCanns to update them, not Amaral. It was he and Encarnacao who allegedly interviewed them on 8th August and asked questions which should have been asked only of aguidos. It was him who Bob Small phoned when the McCanns were panicking about being made arguidos. When questioned at Amaral's trial, however, he played down his role;
The Judge asks the witness if he intervened in the criminal process related to Madeleine McCann's disappearance.
LN says he did, but not directly.
The Judge – What do you mean by "indirectly"?
LN says that, though he went to the Algarve a few times to meet Guilhermino Encarnação, then Director of the PJ in Faro, and Gonçalo Amaral, the operations were performed by Portimão police officers under the direction of his team.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2600.0
Amaral, however, makes it clear in his book. A team from the DCCB came from Lisbon with their director (Neves).
From then on, two deputy national directors (Neves and Encarnacao) would direct the investigation assisted by the coordinator (him).
I think the same thing happened in the Cipriano case too.
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Neves was certainly heavily involved in the McCann case. It was he and Encarnacao who met with the McCanns to update them, not Amaral. It was he and Encarnacao who allegedly interviewed them on 8th August and asked questions which should have been asked only of aguidos. It was him who Bob Small phoned when the McCanns were panicking about being made arguidos. When questioned at Amaral's trial, however, he played down his role;
The Judge asks the witness if he intervened in the criminal process related to Madeleine McCann's disappearance.
LN says he did, but not directly.
The Judge – What do you mean by "indirectly"?
LN says that, though he went to the Algarve a few times to meet Guilhermino Encarnação, then Director of the PJ in Faro, and Gonçalo Amaral, the operations were performed by Portimão police officers under the direction of his team.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2600.0
Amaral, however, makes it clear in his book. A team from the DCCB came from Lisbon with their director (Neves).
From then on, two deputy national directors (Neves and Encarnacao) would direct the investigation assisted by the coordinator (him).
I think the same thing happened in the Cipriano case too.
If you listen to what Neves said at amarals trial it is clear why he supported amrals thinking at the time. It seems he too was under the impression that the alerts were very reliable and as good as conformed the previos presence of a cadaver in 5a...no wonder he suspected the McCanns.
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The same could be said of the McCanns,they may not be suspects but no one has ever said they have been eliminated from the investigation.
“Neither her parents or any of the members of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects” ~DCI Andy Redwood, Operation Grange
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What makes you think the three suspected burglars were cleared by the original investigation?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8207.msg407487#msg407487
"Portuguese Polícia Judiciária officially said in May 2017: "We never saw or looked at those people [José Carlos and Ricardo] as suspects of the crime" (Pedro do Carmo)".
I can't locate the original transcript containing that part atm but I know it's somewhere on the net.
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8207.msg407487#msg407487
"Portuguese Polícia Judiciária officially said in May 2017: "We never saw or looked at those people [José Carlos and Ricardo] as suspects of the crime" (Pedro do Carmo)".
I can't locate the original transcript containing that part atm but I know it's somewhere on the net.
I'm sure I've seen that too, Misty, but the best I can do at the moment is:
Maddie case: Murat's friend is amongst the suspects heard by the PJ tvi24
The common factor between the suspects is the fact that they live in Praia da Luz and contacted each other in May 2007, at the time Maddie disappeared. Although they may be suspects for the British police, they are irrelevant for the PJ which heard them during the 2007 investigation.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id498.htm
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Neves was certainly heavily involved in the McCann case. It was he and Encarnacao who met with the McCanns to update them, not Amaral. It was he and Encarnacao who allegedly interviewed them on 8th August and asked questions which should have been asked only of aguidos. It was him who Bob Small phoned when the McCanns were panicking about being made arguidos. When questioned at Amaral's trial, however, he played down his role;
The Judge asks the witness if he intervened in the criminal process related to Madeleine McCann's disappearance.
LN says he did, but not directly.
The Judge – What do you mean by "indirectly"?
LN says that, though he went to the Algarve a few times to meet Guilhermino Encarnação, then Director of the PJ in Faro, and Gonçalo Amaral, the operations were performed by Portimão police officers under the direction of his team.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2600.0
Amaral, however, makes it clear in his book. A team from the DCCB came from Lisbon with their director (Neves).
From then on, two deputy national directors (Neves and Encarnacao) would direct the investigation assisted by the coordinator (him).
I think the same thing happened in the Cipriano case too.
Not quite sure what to make of that. Was Amaral really just an office boy, then?
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Not quite sure what to make of that. Was Amaral really just an office boy, then?
Co ordinator, a person whose job is to organize events or activities and to negotiate with others in order to ensure they work together effectively.
Rather higher up the ladder than office boy given his Chief Inspector title ? 8(0(*
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Memo:
A reminder to all posters to keep comments constructive and amicable. Attack opinion by all means but please do not make personal comments towards fellow members. This forum prides itself in allowing all shades of opinion so please bear this in mind when responding. TY and have a pleasant weekend.
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If you listen to what Neves said at amarals trial it is clear why he supported amrals thinking at the time. It seems he too was under the impression that the alerts were very reliable and as good as conformed the previos presence of a cadaver in 5a...no wonder he suspected the McCanns.
That statement implies you have heard an audio recording of the trial proceedings.
It would be good of you to post same for thebenefit of the rest of us.
A recording of press interviews on courthouse steps will not pass muster.
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Co ordinator, a person whose job is to organize events or activities and to negotiate with others in order to ensure they work together effectively.
Rather higher up the ladder than office boy given his Chief Inspector title ? 8(0(*
In view of his book, documentary, press interviews and column in a pro-PJ tabloid all expounding his "expert view" and non-existent experience of such cases, bar one which landed him in hot water, one might be tempted to think that he was, in fact, the chief inspector. He wasn't - he was the coordinator.
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I don’t think he gave the impression that he was in charge of the case .
As I’ve just stated he was the co ordinator and as such would have all the information to hand which had been gathered . Is this going to turn into yet another attack on Amaral ?
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I don’t think he gave the impression that he was in charge of the case .
As I’ve just stated he was the co ordinator and as such would have all the information to hand which had been gathered . Is this going to turn into yet another attack on Amaral ?
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makes a change from the attacks on the McCann's..... Anything said against amaral pales into insignificance to what has, been said about kate
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makes a change from the attacks on the McCann's..... Anything said against amaral pales into insignificance to what has, been said about kate
Which one of them had a choice about being involved, the inattentive mother or the policeman.
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Which one of them had a choice about being involved, the inattentive mother or the policeman.
the inattentive mother had a choice, it was her and her husbands terrible parenting that contributed to whatever did happen to maddie imo
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Which one of them had a choice about being involved, the inattentive mother or the policeman.
The policeman had a choice in taking that career... Kate didn't choose her predicament
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John has explicitly requested that posts not posters are attacked.
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No agenda... But the criticism towards amarL is nothing compared to the insults towards kate
Kate McCann knew exactly what she was doing when she hurled insults at GNR and PJ officers in her book of thoughts. How dare they bring her in for questioning and make her a chief suspect in her daughter's disappearance, her being a GP and upright citizen et all.
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Kate McCann knew exactly what she was doing when she hurled insults at GNR and PJ officers in her book of thoughts. How dare they bring her in for questioning and make her a chief suspect in her daughter's disappearance, her being a GP and upright citizen et all.
and I think what she did was absolutely right.
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and I think what she did was absolutely right.
So you don’ t think it’s perfectly normal for parents to be questioned in cases of alleged abduction ?
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6So you don’ t think it’s perfectly normal for parents to be questioned in cases of alleged abduction ?
I think its perfectly normal for parents to be questioned.
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"I think" and hence "I don't think" is now accepted as equivalent to IMO.
Trouble is some don't.
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and I think what she did was absolutely right.
In the end the PJ had no evidence against Kate.
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So if you think it's perfectly normal for parents to be questioned?
You do realise kate was questioned and answerred questions for many hours..........absolutely understand why Kate said the things she did...quite reasonable imo
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You do realise kate was questioned and answerred questions for many hours..........absolutely understand why Kate said the things she did...quite reasonable imo
Of course I realise that, but it seems , and coming from her own mouth since , that she's not averse to making derogatory comments in fact wishing ill on Amaral .
I'm not of the opinion that that's reasonable .
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Of course I realise that, but it seems , and coming from her own mouth since , that she's not averse to making derogatory comments in fact wishing ill on Amaral .
I'm not of the opinion that that's reasonable .
I think in the circumstances it is
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I think in the circumstances it is
So you think wishing ill on people is reasonable ?
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So you think wishing ill on people is reasonable ?
He had caused her so much pain with his dreadful,IMO, book.and videos and his various public interviews.
He seemed to care little for her feelings
I don't think wishing him to feel some of her pain is unreasonable.
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He had caused her so much pain with his dreadful,IMO, book.and videos and his various public interviews.
He seemed to care little for her feelings
I don't think wishing him to feel some of her pain is unreasonable.
Quite honestly I don't think your implied suggestion that a detective should have thoughts for the feelings of someone suspected of taking part in a crime would get much support .
Actually she wasn't suggesting he shared her pain, more that he should feel fear.
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Quite honestly I don't think your implied suggestion that a detective should have thoughts for the feelings of someone suspected of taking part in a crime would get much support .
Actually she wasn't suggesting he shared her pain, more that he should feel fear.
Obviously we don't share the same aspirations that any human being would have empathy with a fellow human being in a dreadful situation whether he is a detective or not.
Yes the same fear she experienced when she realised he had decided she had found her child dead and got rid of her body.
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Quite honestly I don't think your implied suggestion that a detective should have thoughts for the feelings of someone suspected of taking part in a crime would get much support .
Actually she wasn't suggesting he shared her pain, more that he should feel fear.
detectives are there to find out the truth not baby people and say there there etc
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makes a change from the attacks on the McCann's..... Anything said against amaral pales into insignificance to what has, been said about kate
It is my opinion that much of the criticism of Kate is entirely fiction while much of the criticism of Amaral is fact.
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detectives are there to find out the truth not baby people and say there there etc or there to look after Kates needs
Portuguese PJ liaison officer Ricardo Paiva was unceremoniously slagged off by Kate McCann after the penny dropped and she realised he was in fact a police observer sent in to keep tabs on them and wasn't her and Gerry's new bestie Portuguese chum.
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Obviously we don't share the same aspirations that any human being would have empathy with a fellow human being in a dreadful situation whether he is a detective or not.
Yes the same fear she experienced when she realised he had decided she had found her child dead and got rid of her body.
It was his , the co ordinator's conclusion, that Madeleine died in apartment 5A and the parents took part in the concealment of her body ? Got rid of isn't a term he used .
I don't share your view that any human being would have empathy in that case.
Cannot understand why some seem to have forgotten who the victim of this dreadful situation is .
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detectives are there to find out the truth not baby people and say there there etc
I think if amaral had got anywhere near the truth we would all be praising him.... But with his body in the coffin idea... Most are laughing at him... Imo
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I think if amaral had got anywhere near the truth we would all be praising him.... But with his boby in the coffin ide... Most are laughing at him... Imo
Was that his idea or did he say it was reported as such?
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A reminder for the benefit of posters who didn't see this earlier,please keep comments constructive and amicable. Attack opinion by all means but please do not make personal comments towards fellow members.
This forum prides itself in allowing all shades of opinion so please bear this in mind when responding. TY and have a pleasant weekend.
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He had caused her so much pain with his dreadful,IMO, book.and videos and his various public interviews.
He seemed to care little for her feelings
I don't think wishing him to feel some of her pain is unreasonable.
Just like you Kate McCann thought Amaral deserved to be miserable and feel fear. Just like you she objected to him documenting the development of the investigation in his book. Now a man who agreed with him and didn't believe her story is taking over as head of the PJ.
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I think if amaral had got anywhere near the truth we would all be praising him.... But with his boby in the coffin ide... Most are laughing at him... Imo
Was that his idea or did he say it was reported as such?
That well known oracle the sun has the story is there reliable source for it?
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Just like you Kate McCann thought Amaral deserved to be miserable and feel fear. Just like you she objected to him documenting the development of the investigation in his book. Now a man who agreed with him and didn't believe her story is taking over as head of the PJ.
Good for him!
Am I supposed to be impressed?
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I don't think Gonçalo Amaral has a defined singular theory as to what happened to Madeleine, rather, a number of theories based on facts and situations which were known to him. I certainly agree that some of his theories are just a tad unlikely but bear in mind that sometimes it is the unlikely ones that end up being right.
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I don't think Gonçalo Amaral has a defined singular therory as to what happened to Madeleine, rather, a number of theories based on facts and situations which were known to him. I certainly agree that some of his theories are just a tad unlikely but bear in mind that sometimes it is the unlikely ones that end up being right.
I wouldn't agree his theories are based on facts....if they were he would be free to publish his book in the uk
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Just like you Kate McCann thought Amaral deserved to be miserable and feel fear. Just like you she objected to him documenting the development of the investigation in his book. Now a man who agreed with him and didn't believe her story is taking over as head of the PJ.
It is a bit of a mystery to me how a man on the periphery of the investigation we are told; a man who had no locus in the strategic planning of the investigation we are are constantly told; who indeed it appears was held at arms length by his superiors while they assumed responsibility for every aspect of the case, possibly write an authoritative book on the subject.
Or was his actual job that of 'documenting the development of the investigation'? From what has been posted here about what he was not responsible for during the investigation ... is that what he actually was responsible for ... the filing system?
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Good for him!
Am I supposed to be impressed?
I'm just posting on topic. It remains to be seen if he'll take any interest in the case. I wonder who'll take over from do Carmo? Perhaps Neves will decide.
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Just like you Kate McCann thought Amaral deserved to be miserable and feel fear. Just like you she objected to him documenting the development of the investigation in his book. Now a man who agreed with him and didn't believe her story is taking over as head of the PJ.
Neves may have agreed with amaral then but I doubt he does now...from his court statement Neves overestimated the ability of the dogs... I think that will have now been clarified
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It is a bit of a mystery to me how a man on the periphery of the investigation we are told; a man who had no locus in the strategic planning of the investigation we are are constantly told; who indeed it appears was held at arms length by his superiors while they assumed responsibility for every aspect of the case, possibly write an authoritative book on the subject.
Or was his actual job that of 'documenting the development of the investigation'? From what has been posted here about what he was not responsible for during the investigation ... is that what he actually was responsible for ... the filing system?
For years Amaral has been blamed for the fact that the McCanns were suspected, investigated and made arguidos. For years I have pointed out that an investigation is a hierarchical team effort and that he wasn't the highest ranking officer.
Now that it's finally sinking in that he wasn't in sole charge he's being accused of being little more than a filing clerk.
Is his position really so hard to grasp? He was part of a team. Above him were the prosecutor, Neves and Encarnacao. Below him were the Portimao PJ odfficers.
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Neves may have agreed with amaral then but I doubt he does now...from his court statement Neves overestimated the ability of the dogs... I think that will have now been clarified
You keep saying that. Clarified by who; you?
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For years Amaral has been blamed for the fact that the McCanns were suspected, investigated and made arguidos. For years I have pointed out that an investigation is a hierarchical team effort and that he wasn't the highest ranking officer.
Now that it's finally sinking in that he wasn't in sole charge he's being accused of being little more than a filing clerk.
Is his position really so hard to grasp? He was part of a team. Above him were the prosecutor, Neves and Encarnacao. Below him were the Portimao PJ odfficers.
could you give a cite to show taht any other meber of the PJ thought they could prove maddie died in the apartment
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You keep saying that. Clarified by who; you?
no IMO Martin grime...when the mccanns were made arguidos its clear the pj oversestimated the value of the alerts IMO.
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It was his , the co ordinator's conclusion, that Madeleine died in apartment 5A and the parents took part in the concealment of her body ? Got rid of isn't a term he used .
I don't share your view that any human being would have empathy in that case.
Cannot understand why some seem to have forgotten who the victim of this dreadful situation is .
Who has forgotten the victim?
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Gonçalo Amaral’s lawyer, Dr Santos de Oliveira, examined Luís Neves at the libel trial and asked him if he had any knowledge about how the "death" theory came about? Neves replied that there was no such theory in the beginning; he even remembers that Guilhermino Encarnação talked of abduction. But with time this idea had to be contemplated. He says that Madeleine's parents were the first to talk of death. It occurred in the British Consulate when the parents wanted a South African ex-policeman to come with a machine supposed to find bodies from hair samples
While being examined by TVI's lawyer, Dr. Miguel Coroadinha, Luís Neves testified that Guilhermino Encarnação spoke of abduction in spite of having absolutely nothing that could substantiate it.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2600.msg86047#msg86047
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no Martin grime...when the mccanns were made arguidos its clear the pj oversestimated the value of the alerts....I dont think that needs an imo
You are assuming others agree with your opinions, so it does need an imo.
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You are assuming others agree with your opinions, so it does need an imo.
IMO others do agree..its actually in the police files that cadaver was alerted to.....that is not a confirmed fact and IMO shows a misunderstanding
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IMO others do agree..its actually in the police files that cadaver was alerted to.....that is not a confirmed fact and IMO shows a misunderstanding
You cannot show that Neves is one of them, can you?
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Gonçalo Amaral’s lawyer, Dr Santos de Oliveira, examined Luís Neves at the libel trial and asked him if he had any knowledge about how the "death" theory came about? Neves replied that there was no such theory in the beginning; he even remembers that Guilhermino Encarnação talked of abduction. But with time this idea had to be contemplated. He says that Madeleine's parents were the first to talk of death. It occurred in the British Consulate when the parents wanted a South African ex-policeman to come with a machine supposed to find bodies from hair samples
While being examined by TVI's lawyer, Dr. Miguel Coroadinha, Luís Neves testified that Guilhermino Encarnação spoke of abduction in spite of having absolutely nothing that could substantiate it.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2600.msg86047#msg86047
That machine (Danie Krugel) didn't just work on dead people's DNA. It was supposed to use DNA to find the person whether dead or alive. Your DNA sample doesn't change if you are dead or alive.
"It occurred in the British Consulate when the parents wanted a South African ex-policeman to come with a machine supposed to find bodies from hair samples." "Bodies" in this case can be dead or alive.
So if you think it implies the McCanns thought Madeleine was dead at that stage I think that is incorrect.
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Neves may have agreed with amaral then but I doubt he does now...from his court statement Neves overestimated the ability of the dogs... I think that will have now been clarified
You have no way of 'knowing' this information what Neves may have changed his mind about agreeing with Amaral.
This man is an EXPERT in abduction and kidnapping he would be better equipped to offer his support and expertise in the investigation. Let us remember that OG brought in 'them dawgs wot dont no nuffin' during a dig in PDL.
So much for 'ask the dogs Sandra'- This was the SY and PJ both letting the McCanns AND their following see THAT they do trust the dogs! hmmm yeah... ^*&&
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That machine (Danie Krugel) didn't just work on dead people's DNA. It was supposed to use DNA to find the person whether dead or alive. Your DNA sample doesn't change if you are dead or alive.
"It occurred in the British Consulate when the parents wanted a South African ex-policeman to come with a machine supposed to find bodies from hair samples." "Bodies" in this case can be dead or alive.
So if you think it implies the McCanns thought Madeleine was dead at that stage I think that is incorrect.
In short he would appear to claim he has uniquely developed a handheld device that can find a missing person alive or dead in any given terrain over any elapsed time period.
In debriefing the officers who accompanied Krugel it is possible to hypothesise what he may have been doing and using.
In consultation with a colleague Dr Wolfram Meier-Augenstein we feel he may have been attempting to give the impression he had developed and was using a "Remote Laser based gas sensing device". However his claims regarding the distance of detection, up to 20km and the use of a hair sample are highly unlikely and would be a great innovation in the scientific world. Further provenance of this technique could be sought from Prof. Miles Padgett who is a Professor of optics in physics at the University of Glasgow
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Danie_Krugel.htm
For the families of missing people I believe it is known as 'clutching at straws'.
Krugel advertised himself and posted testimonials from satisfied 'customers' on his blog https://independentmuse.wordpress.com/2008/09/11/hello-world/ he seemed to be anxious to help people altruistically ... Kate and Gerry who are convinced Madeleine might still be in Portugal https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/12157258/Madeleine-McCann-is-still-in-the-Algarve-claims-mother.html and who were desperate to find her alive and well probably thought Krugel was worth a try ... he was a former detective of South Africa Police's missing children unit after all.
Kate and Gerry had nothing to lose and everything to gain ... absolutely nonsensical to interpret this against them in the way it was. In my opinion a prime example of the prejudice they were and are up against.
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In short he would appear to claim he has uniquely developed a handheld device that can find a missing person alive or dead in any given terrain over any elapsed time period.
In debriefing the officers who accompanied Krugel it is possible to hypothesise what he may have been doing and using.
In consultation with a colleague Dr Wolfram Meier-Augenstein we feel he may have been attempting to give the impression he had developed and was using a "Remote Laser based gas sensing device". However his claims regarding the distance of detection, up to 20km and the use of a hair sample are highly unlikely and would be a great innovation in the scientific world. Further provenance of this technique could be sought from Prof. Miles Padgett who is a Professor of optics in physics at the University of Glasgow
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Danie_Krugel.htm
For the families of missing people I believe it is known as 'clutching at straws'.
Krugel advertised himself and posted testimonials from satisfied 'customers' on his blog https://independentmuse.wordpress.com/2008/09/11/hello-world/ he seemed to be anxious to help people altruistically ... Kate and Gerry who are convinced Madeleine might still be in Portugal https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/12157258/Madeleine-McCann-is-still-in-the-Algarve-claims-mother.html and who were desperate to find her alive and well probably thought Krugel was worth a try ... he was a former detective of South Africa Police's missing children unit after all.
Kate and Gerry had nothing to lose and everything to gain ... absolutely nonsensical to interpret this against them in the way it was. In my opinion a prime example of the prejudice they were and are up against.
It was probably a hoax yet in that interview with Brunt on the 10th anniversary he still claimed it was successful.
My point stands and supported by your quote, it was not designed to specifically to find dead bodies, but "a handheld device that can find a missing person alive or dead [/b]in any given terrain over any elapsed time period".