UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on May 27, 2018, 10:42:23 AM
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The British Government must be very aware that when Operation Grange and its Portuguese counterpart is eventually shelved that latter will again have to make their files public. And if the original files were anything to go by, this second release of information into the public domain could very well be damaging.
Could it be that this inevitability is a factor in keeping the enquiry ticking over.
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The British Government must be very aware that when Operation Grange and its Portuguese counterpart is eventually shelved that latter will again have to make their files public. And if the original files were anything to go by, this second release of information into the public domain could very well be damaging.
Could it be that this inevitability is a factor in keeping the enquiry ticking over.
Damaging for whom, John?
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The British Government must be very aware that when Operation Grange and its Portuguese counterpart is eventually shelved that latter will again have to make their files public. And if the original files were anything to go by, this second release of information into the public domain could very well be damaging.
Could it be that this inevitability is a factor in keeping the enquiry ticking over.
...or at the very least embarrassing. Good point.
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The British Government must be very aware that when Operation Grange and its Portuguese counterpart is eventually shelved that latter will again have to make their files public. And if the original files were anything to go by, this second release of information into the public domain could very well be damaging.
Could it be that this inevitability is a factor in keeping the enquiry ticking over.
Given its a essentially Portuguese investigation it'll be down to them when it ends,can't see why they would keep it ticking over,now OG could be an altogether different ball game.
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The British Government must be very aware that when Operation Grange and its Portuguese counterpart is eventually shelved that latter will again have to make their files public. And if the original files were anything to go by, this second release of information into the public domain could very well be damaging.
Could it be that this inevitability is a factor in keeping the enquiry ticking over.
In my opinion that just is not going to happen.
The Portuguese have in this investigation adhered strictly to the Penal Code on judicial secrecy. They insisted on the same standard of adherence to that procedure from their British counterparts.
If or when the files pertaining to this investigation are released in my opinion, it will be carried out under strict adherence to the law.
In my opinion the Portuguese authorities will take cognisance of the previous breach of the law as occurred previously in Madeleine's case.
In my opinion they will ensure any files released will be in accordance with Portuguese law and that a general release of the files on the internet will not happen because there will be more stringent checks and balances put in place to ensure accountability to the law for those entitled to have a copy.
First time round ... the internet was in its infancy and the release of the files in such a manner could not have been envisaged. As far as I am concerned the Portuguese have been once bitten and it will not be allowed to happen again.
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Or so you hope.
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Or so you hope.
Can you detail even one other instance of persons who were given a DVD copy of the files who has breached Portuguese law and the trust placed in them other than Duarte Levy?
I cannot think of a single instance.
In a question and answer session in another place Paulo Reis explained the position succinctly ...
Snip
*** wrote:
Mr. Reis,
Thank you for all the trouble you are going thrue to keep us updated. I have this question to you:
Was there an index of the contents of the files you received attached on the dvd's? And if so, could you please show us the index, so we know what kind of statements, documents, photo's etc. we can expect in the weeks to come?
I can't reproduce (in verbatim...) documents or reprint pictures and/or images from the files, or I may risk a prison sentence up to two years. I can report about the content of those documents, using my own words (artº 88º, Portuguese Penal Code ... Paulo Reis
Snip
******* wrote:
The point that pjreis makes is that some pages are scans (bitmap images) therefore they cannot be easily searched for keywords. It would be possible to convert every scan into text using OCR software but that would take many many days.
And a request - please I will be very interested to read pages 868-869 (argument) to know where? and when? and which language?
I'll check that, as soon as possible. But I can't make full transcripts, copy of reproduce documents from the PDF files in the DVD given to journalists, I have to use my own words, to publish the content of those files. That's the Law, in Portugal, I and could be jailed up to two years, if I don't respect those legal rules. ... Paulo Reis
I reiterate ... the breach in the observance of the Portuguese Legal Code was allowed to happen once ... in my opinion it will not be allowed to happen again.
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Can you detail even one other instance of persons who were given a DVD copy of the files who has breached Portuguese law and the trust placed in them other than Duarte Levy?
I cannot think of a single instance.
In a question and answer session in another place Paulo Reis explained the position succinctly ...
Snip
*** wrote:
Mr. Reis,
Thank you for all the trouble you are going thrue to keep us updated. I have this question to you:
Was there an index of the contents of the files you received attached on the dvd's? And if so, could you please show us the index, so we know what kind of statements, documents, photo's etc. we can expect in the weeks to come?
I can't reproduce (in verbatim...) documents or reprint pictures and/or images from the files, or I may risk a prison sentence up to two years. I can report about the content of those documents, using my own words (artº 88º, Portuguese Penal Code ... Paulo Reis
Snip
******* wrote:
The point that pjreis makes is that some pages are scans (bitmap images) therefore they cannot be easily searched for keywords. It would be possible to convert every scan into text using OCR software but that would take many many days.
And a request - please I will be very interested to read pages 868-869 (argument) to know where? and when? and which language?
I'll check that, as soon as possible. But I can't make full transcripts, copy of reproduce documents from the PDF files in the DVD given to journalists, I have to use my own words, to publish the content of those files. That's the Law, in Portugal, I and could be jailed up to two years, if I don't respect those legal rules. ... Paulo Reis
I reiterate ... the breach in the observance of the Portuguese Legal Code was allowed to happen once ... in my opinion it will not be allowed to happen again.
Not interested. Just looking forward to the details that are released.
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The British Government must be very aware that when Operation Grange and its Portuguese counterpart is eventually shelved that latter will again have to make their files public. And if the original files were anything to go by, this second release of information into the public domain could very well be damaging.
Could it be that this inevitability is a factor in keeping the enquiry ticking over.
Not sure what you're thinking of, John.
The UK and PT investigations are separate, even though there appears to have been some sharing of information / updates, etc.
The UK appears to have whittled its investigation down to a single remaining lead. Once they folliw that through to a conclusion, I would have thought that that's the end of the road unless anything new turns up.
The Porto PT team hasn't said anything. From what I can gather, it's a small team that is also looking into various other cases. Also, AFAIK, there aren't any arguidos on their side - so there's no particular time pressure.
I don't recall having seen PJ investigation documents that "interested parties" could consult - so I don't know what may - or may not - be redacted in "normal circumstances". In all the PT judgments online that I've seen, names are redacted to a code of letters and numbers, aside from the plaintiffs / defendants identifying the case. I don't know if the PJ are normally supposed to follow that protocol or not.
The UK produced a sensitively written post-mortem on the original investigation, but I haven't seen one from the PT side. There may well be one, but I doubt that it would be available online.
In view of the clamp down on leaks, I can't see what PT could reveal that could be "damaging" or "embarrassing".
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In my opinion that just is not going to happen.
The Portuguese have in this investigation adhered strictly to the Penal Code on judicial secrecy. They insisted on the same standard of adherence to that procedure from their British counterparts.
If or when the files pertaining to this investigation are released in my opinion, it will be carried out under strict adherence to the law.
In my opinion the Portuguese authorities will take cognisance of the previous breach of the law as occurred previously in Madeleine's case.
In my opinion they will ensure any files released will be in accordance with Portuguese law and that a general release of the files on the internet will not happen because there will be more stringent checks and balances put in place to ensure accountability to the law for those entitled to have a copy.
First time round ... the internet was in its infancy and the release of the files in such a manner could not have been envisaged. As far as I am concerned the Portuguese have been once bitten and it will not be allowed to happen again.
Where did that rumour start.
By 2007 Google was nine years old. The net and email had been in common usage since 1995.
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Where did that rumour start.
By 2007 Google was nine years old. The net and email had been in common usage since 1995.
I watched the 9/11 attacks on the internet in 2001. By 2007 I had designed and was running a website, doing online shopping and banking....
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I watched the 9/11 attacks on the internet in 2001. By 2007 I had designed and was running a website, doing online shopping and banking....
Usenet has been around since 1980.
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broadnband started 2000......FB...2004... I think its fair to say the Internet was in its infancy in 2007
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Where did that rumour start.
By 2007 Google was nine years old. The net and email had been in common usage since 1995.
It is a phenomenon ... or as you may have it ... a 'rumour' ... which has attracted the attention of a reasonable number of academics who think it worthy of a thought or two.
Snip
At a time when 24-7 news was migrating online (Fenton 2009; Pavlik 2008), the case generated unprecedented global media attention. Over a five-year period that has failed to resolve the mystery of the disappearance, Madeleine was subject to a process of relentless ‘intermediatisation’.
By this, we mean that ‘Madeleine’ was mediatised not only through rolling news coverage, but also across a network of websites, television documentaries, films, Youtube videos, books, magazines, music and artworks.
The photogenic little girl was transformed into an iconic global image.
Kate and Gerry McCann were also intermediatised, and quickly became celebrities.
Their representation ranged from unquestioning sympathy and support, to suspicion and innuendo, to full-blown ‘trial by media’ involving periods of abusive and defamatory speculation about the role they might have played in their daughter’s disappearance.
http://openaccess.city.ac.uk/1988/1/2012%20-%20TC%20-%20Madeleine%20McCann.pdf
In my opinion there is far more evidence to suggest that my statement: " ... the internet was in its infancy and the release of the files in such a manner could not have been envisaged. As far as I am concerned the Portuguese have been once bitten and it will not be allowed to happen again." bears far more relevance to the thread topic than in your opinion that, to coin a phrase, internet usage was no longer in its infancy.
How that may fit with the unprecedented coverage given to Madeleine's case is a bit of a mystery to me, but there you are.
However ... watch this space.
Are you prepared to stake the family pile that the Portuguese authorities will have learnt nothing from the illegal release of the PJ files on Madeleine's case onto the internet and will take no preventative measures to ensure there is no future repetition?
Brave man! if you are ... imo of course.
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Can you detail even one other instance of persons who were given a DVD copy of the files who has breached Portuguese law and the trust placed in them other than Duarte Levy?
I cannot think of a single instance.
In a question and answer session in another place Paulo Reis explained the position succinctly ...
Snip
*** wrote:
Mr. Reis,
Thank you for all the trouble you are going thrue to keep us updated. I have this question to you:
Was there an index of the contents of the files you received attached on the dvd's? And if so, could you please show us the index, so we know what kind of statements, documents, photo's etc. we can expect in the weeks to come?
I can't reproduce (in verbatim...) documents or reprint pictures and/or images from the files, or I may risk a prison sentence up to two years. I can report about the content of those documents, using my own words (artº 88º, Portuguese Penal Code ... Paulo Reis
Snip
******* wrote:
The point that pjreis makes is that some pages are scans (bitmap images) therefore they cannot be easily searched for keywords. It would be possible to convert every scan into text using OCR software but that would take many many days.
And a request - please I will be very interested to read pages 868-869 (argument) to know where? and when? and which language?
I'll check that, as soon as possible. But I can't make full transcripts, copy of reproduce documents from the PDF files in the DVD given to journalists, I have to use my own words, to publish the content of those files. That's the Law, in Portugal, I and could be jailed up to two years, if I don't respect those legal rules. ... Paulo Reis
I reiterate ... the breach in the observance of the Portuguese Legal Code was allowed to happen once ... in my opinion it will not be allowed to happen again.
Perhaps you might like to delineate all that; just so's we all understand.
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Perhaps you might like to delineate all that; just so's we all understand.
You wonder why they release them if no one is allowed to see them?
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You wonder why they release them if no one is allowed to see them?
I can't reproduce (in verbatim...) documents or reprint pictures and/or images from the files, or I may risk a prison sentence up to two years. I can report about the content of those documents, using my own words (artº 88º, Portuguese Penal Code ... Paulo Reis
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Doesn’t answer the question.
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Doesn’t answer the question.
Is "no one" allowed to see them, or are some people allowed to see them,eg news journalists?
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Doesn’t answer the question.
If I understand that you can see them but not reproduce them.
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If I understand that you can see them but not reproduce them.
I stand to be corrected on this as I am going from memory. At the conclusion of a criminal case the case files are made available to interested parties. Obviously those directly involved in the case are given access; journalists; academics; maybe even the person in the street just passing by?
I think because of the unprecedented interest in Madeleine's case and the number of interested parties entitled to read the files and the sheer volume of the files ... DVDs were burned and given out.
Two things I don't know for sure ... - was it usual to distribute the information in this or a similar manner?
- or was it usual procedure for the released files to be read only on the premises and no physical copies allowed for retention by the interested parties?
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I'm not saying "that you can see them but not reproduce them" is law but it appeared to be what Paulo Reis was saying, right or wrong.
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I'm not saying "that you can see them but not reproduce them" is law but it appeared to be what Paulo Reis was saying, right or wrong.
All the documents on the DVD have a watermark (including the photos), which states:
MINISTERIO PUBLICO DE PORTMAO
PROIBIDA A REPRODUÇAO
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All the documents on the DVD have a watermark (including the photos), which states:
MINISTERIO PUBLICO DE PORTMAO
PROIBIDA A REPRODUÇAO
Was that put on at the time of document production, or when they were placed on the DVD, do you think?
The former would seem sensible while judicial secrecy was required, but seems pointless when the DVD was going to be made publicly available, particularly to sources outside of Portugal.
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I don’t really understand why the PJ would release files to the public when a case gets shelved without resolution. If they have been investigating someone but don’t amass enough evidence to secure a conviction, how is it in anyone’s interest (apart from the suspect) to let the possible guilty party know what evidence has already been amassed against them, evidence which may be vital in any future court case?
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I think it is the Justice dept rather than the police that authorises release. All to do with the Portuguese Constitution
From what was released previously, it would seem to be information that led nowhere.
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I don’t really understand why the PJ would release files to the public when a case gets shelved without resolution. If they have been investigating someone but don’t amass enough evidence to secure a conviction, how is it in anyone’s interest (apart from the suspect) to let the possible guilty party know what evidence has already been amassed against them, evidence which may be vital in any future court case?
Apparently, the general idea is transparency (don't mention the war dictatorship), to justify the decision.
I asked around various Portuguese people I was in contact with at the time, and no one had ever heard of DVDs being handed out before. My best guess is that it was simply a pragmatic decision in view of the anticipated media frenzy and likely disruption. I can understand that to a point, but, perhaps with more time, identifying elements could have been redacted (as happens frequently in the US) and indeed in PT legal judgments.
In view of the numerous "leaks" throughout the investigation, many of which were garbled half-truths at best, I'm curious as to whether whoever made that decision thought that it could help to set the record straight, and / or whether that person anticipated that the whole of it would get shared beyond whatever "interested parties" were deemed to be, then uploaded wholesale.
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Apparently, the general idea is transparency (don't mention the war dictatorship), to justify the decision.
I asked around various Portuguese people I was in contact with at the time, and no one had ever heard of DVDs being handed out before. My best guess is that it was simply a pragmatic decision in view of the anticipated media frenzy and likely disruption. I can understand that to a point, but, perhaps with more time, identifying elements could have been redacted (as happens frequently in the US) and indeed in PT legal judgments.
In view of the numerous "leaks" throughout the investigation, many of which were garbled half-truths at best, I'm curious as to whether whoever made that decision thought that it could help to set the record straight, and / or whether that person anticipated that the whole of it would get shared beyond whatever "interested parties" were deemed to be, then uploaded wholesale.
Oh My. Think of the fun we could have had with redactions.
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Oh My. Think of the fun we could have had with redactions.
For those of us old enough to remember, certain people had fun with the then embryonic Google translate function... ?8)@)-)
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I’ll be interested to know what the reaction will be in some quarters when it is revealed via the release of the new files that the McCanns have not been subjected to further close scrutiny by the PJ, and that stranger abduction has been the lead they have been following.
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Apparently, the general idea is transparency (don't mention the war dictatorship), to justify the decision.
I asked around various Portuguese people I was in contact with at the time, and no one had ever heard of DVDs being handed out before. My best guess is that it was simply a pragmatic decision in view of the anticipated media frenzy and likely disruption. I can understand that to a point, but, perhaps with more time, identifying elements could have been redacted (as happens frequently in the US) and indeed in PT legal judgments.
In view of the numerous "leaks" throughout the investigation, many of which were garbled half-truths at best, I'm curious as to whether whoever made that decision thought that it could help to set the record straight, and / or whether that person anticipated that the whole of it would get shared beyond whatever "interested parties" were deemed to be, then uploaded wholesale.
I am convinced that the effect the internet would have on the dissemination of the files just wasn't considered because such a thing happening was totally unprecedented.
We with the the experience of the intervening years and the benefit of hindsight could have flagged up the likelihood of it, but in my opinion the Portuguese authorities at the time could never have envisaged anyone breaching their trust to the extent it was, to translate and release the files on the internet.
Having seen that happening once and probably being appalled by the abuse of the constitution it signified I firmly believe that the present Portuguese authorities will take steps to ensure there is no repetition.
I believe part of that process has been the care taken to ensure there would be no pejorative press leaks about anyone from the review stage until now ensuring that 'judicial secrecy' is just that.
Based on that, I am convinced that consideration will already have been given to the best way to facilitate the lawful use of the new Madeleine files when the time comes while ensuring that the law and the constitution are not compromised as I believe happened previously.
No easy task when relying on the honour and integrity of the recipient; but I have no doubt that the entertainment value when and if the present files are released won't match the 2008 free for all.
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Different country, different rules.
We appear to be nowhere the end of this saga yet, so it could be years before we get to see the second installment, which will presumably only record the Portuguese side of the investigation and not give much insight to British activity. Hell will freeze over before the UK judicial system offers a similar degree of transparent
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personally I think it has been embarrassing for Portugal, and they have been forced to investigate the case properly.
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personally I think it has been embarrassing for Portugal, and they have been forced to investigate the case properly.
Countries don't do embarrassment.
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Countries don't do embarrassment.
They ought to. MH17 downed by Russian missile. Things like that aren't going to be forgotten quickly. The way Portugal seems to finger foreigners for their troubles won't be forgotten by me.
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They ought to. MH17 downed by Russian missile. Things like that aren't going to be forgotten quickly. The way Portugal seems to finger foreigners for their troubles won't be forgotten by me.
Would you care to give some examples to support your statement ?
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Would you care to give some examples to support your statement ?
The one that sealed it for me was the Australian woman accused of committing suicide but the autopsy showed she had been hit over the head 4 times with an axe. I have referred to this case several times over the years of being on the forum.
http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/family-claim-australian-woman-murdered-at-algarve-home-police-say-suicide/4397
"Local police concluded the death was a suicide, despite an autopsy in Australia finding later she died of extensive injuries caused by repeated blows with an axe and evidence of defensive wounds on her arms and legs." Is a mistake like that even possible?
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The one that sealed it for me was the Australian woman accused of committing suicide but the autopsy showed she had been hit over the head 4 times with an axe. I have referred to this case several times over the years of being on the forum.
http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/family-claim-australian-woman-murdered-at-algarve-home-police-say-suicide/4397
"Local police concluded the death was a suicide, despite an autopsy in Australia finding later she died of extensive injuries caused by repeated blows with an axe and evidence of defensive wounds on her arms and legs." Is a mistake like that even possible?
How is that " fingering foreigners for their troubles"?
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Countries don't do embarrassment.
Something or some one has to be blamed,imo.
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The one that sealed it for me was the Australian woman accused of committing suicide but the autopsy showed she had been hit over the head 4 times with an axe. I have referred to this case several times over the years of being on the forum.
http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/family-claim-australian-woman-murdered-at-algarve-home-police-say-suicide/4397
"Local police concluded the death was a suicide, despite an autopsy in Australia finding later she died of extensive injuries caused by repeated blows with an axe and evidence of defensive wounds on her arms and legs." Is a mistake like that even possible?
A few photos of how the body was found would go along way. I'd like that case to be reopened.
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A few photos of how the body was found would go along way. I'd like that case to be reopened.
I would imagine her family would also like the case reopened.
Seems a most unlikely way for anyone to kill themself.
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How is that " fingering foreigners for their troubles"?
Blaming the Australian for committing suicide rather than looking for the murderer with their country, that is my opinion and I'm struggling to forget it.
I would imagine her family would also like the case reopened.
Seems a most unlikely way for anyone to kill themself.
I'm sure that is the case.
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Even releasing a few thousand of the case files the PJ held back from their 2007 - 2008 investigation would be a good way to keep the case ticking over IMO.
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Blaming the Australian for committing suicide rather than looking for the murderer with their country, that is my opinion and I'm struggling to forget it. I'm sure that is the case.
the PJ suggested the head wounds from an axe were self inflicted evidently
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Even releasing a few thousand of the case files the PJ held back from their 2007 - 2008 investigation would be a good way to keep the case ticking over IMO.
That the Portuguese held these files back suggests that document release was carefully considered and stuff was not just released willy nilly
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That the Portuguese held these files back suggests that document release was carefully considered and stuff was not just released willy nilly
Carefully controlled by the Public Prosecutor.
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the PJ suggested the head wounds from an axe were self inflicted evidently
I find that very difficult to believe.
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I find that very difficult to believe.
Well people have used, drills, chainsaws, nail guns etc...
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Well people have used, drills, chainsaws, nail guns etc...
Obviously you have a wider knowledge than I do.
Did you Google that or were these facts something you were familiar with?
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Well people have used, drills, chainsaws, nail guns etc...
In a sequence of events chillingly similar to the death of Britt Lapthorne, local police claim the death was a suicide - despite a coronial examination in Australia finding she died of extensive injuries caused by repeated blows with an axe and evidence of defensive wounds on her arms and legs.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/45jan11/HERALDSUN_03_01_11.htm
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In a sequence of events chillingly similar to the death of Britt Lapthorne, local police claim the death was a suicide - despite a coronial examination in Australia finding she died of extensive injuries caused by repeated blows with an axe and evidence of defensive wounds on her arms and legs.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/45jan11/HERALDSUN_03_01_11.htm
Certainly doesn't seem like suicide.
How can such a claim be made!
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Who said Deepcut Barracks?
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Who said Deepcut Barracks?
Indeed!
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Certainly doesn't seem like suicide.
How can such a claim be made!
A similar thing is happening to British women in Thailand. Too many unexplained deaths.
If there is any benefit for the tourist industry to Portugal the continued investigation will let the authorities know they need to investigate these cases properly.
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I'm not all that sure that the presumption that there will be any requirement to keep Madeleine's case ticking over into the future is necessarily going to be the case.
The present investigation could very well crack the case wide open.