UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: adam on June 10, 2018, 09:58:34 AM
-
There has been continuous claims that there was no kitchen fight. Both on the OS & from supporters on forums. The evidence there was a violent kitchen fight is as follows -
Nevill Bamber was strong enough to move from the bedroom to the kitchen.
Nevill Bamber was 6.4 tall and well built. His legs & arms would be working after receiving his upstairs shots.
Nevill Bamber would have known he would have to fight for his life by the time he arrived in the kitchen. This adrenalin would have negated any rifle shot pain when in the kitchen.
Jeremy Bamber would have known he would have to violently fight Nevill Bamber once Nevill had escaped from the bedroom.
Both people in the kitchen knew they were in a fight to the death.
Scratched aga.
Paint on rifle.
Smashed ceiling light.
Upturned chairs
Uptuned stools.
Broken crokery.
Broken rifle stock.
Clothes on floor.
Smashed watch on floor.
Sugar on floor.
Scuffed mats.
Nevill Bamber had black eyes.
Nevill Bamber had a broken nose.
Nevill Bamber had linear bruising to the cheeks.
Nevill Bamber had lacerations to the head.
Nevill Bamber had bruising to the left wrist.
Nevill Bamber had bruising to the forearm.
The blows on Nevill Bamber were made with tremendous force.
The police deny upturning any chairs/stools.
All evidence contradicts the claim that Nevill got downstairs and instantly collapsed on the floor.
Nevill's back had been burnt. Suggesting Jeremy was so surprised at Nevill's resistance, he wanted to make sure he was dead after shooting him 8 times.
The judge said Nevill Bamber put up a 'tremendous fight for life'.
The 'Court of Appeal' said there had been a violent struggle in the kitchen.
----------
The best option for supporters is to agree there was a kitchen fight & that Sheila showered & changed afterwards. During the fight, Sheila was wearing protective clothing and shoes.
The evidence from the 'Court of Appeal' & witnesses that Sheila was under sedation, weak, subdued & un coordinated prior to the massacre was wrong.
Nevill did not want to injure Sheila although she had shot him & his wife. He just wanted to negate her. This soft approach failed to do this & got brutally beaten in the process.
Nevill did not consider using his huge height & weight advantage to take Sheila to ground when wrestling for the rifle.
.
-
There has been continuous claims that there was no kitchen fight. Both on the OS & from supporters on forums. The evidence there was a violent kitchen...
An excellent post Adam, well researched. I can't think of any other possible scenario whereby those facts could point to something else having occurred.
Nevill was obviously strong enough to battle with a male attacker but he succumbed to his injuries. What terror he must have experienced when he knew his strength was waning, that his worst fears and nightmares had come to fruition and that he was about to die. He had fought the Nazi's and won but would die at the hands of a despicable coward!
-
Hopefully David & Holly will confirm there was a kitchen fight & that Bamber was the only possible opponent Nevill had. David already believes Bamber is guilty, but has not got the confidence to say so.
Mike & Lookout are too far gone.
-
Hopefully David & Holly will confirm there was a kitchen fight & that Bamber was the only possible opponent Nevill had. David already believes Bamber is guilty, but has not got the confidence to say so.
Mike & Lookout are too far gone.
The evidence is overwhelming imo. Bamber created the situation whereby it could only have been himself or Sheila who did the dastardly deed and the evidence of what occurred in the kitchen can only point one way. To argue against this would be futile. All the crap about the silencer, the spent shells, the blood stains etc are merely window dressing imo.
-
Ludicrous to even suggest that there was no fight in the kitchen. Nevill was found there with a shocking catalogue of injuries and it would seem to me that these were sustained as a result of a struggle to the death. The sugar bowl had been spilled all over the floor yet none was found on Sheila's feet? Obviously because she never set foot in the kitchen to batter Nevill. I'm just staggered that any objective observer can look at the evidence and not see that Bamber is 100 per cent guilty.
-
Hopefully David & Holly will confirm there was a kitchen fight & that Bamber was the only possible opponent Nevill had. David already believes Bamber is guilty, but has not got the confidence to say so.
Mike & Lookout are too far gone.
There's no evidence of a "kitchen fight" or anything approaching.
The pathologist describes NB putting up a "spirited defense" and points out the defensive wounds to NB's right arm as opposed to his left arm which was totally impaired from the shoulder gsw sustained upstairs.
The maths and science behind the ballistics shows only 1 foot pound or 1.35 joules is required to cause a penetrating wound. The ammo and rifle used at WHF generated 91.29 feet pounds or 123.77 joules. The gsw's NB sustained to his lip and jaw upstairs were inflicted at a distance of no greater than a few inches. Bullets tore into his lip and jaw at a force of 91.29 feet pounds and ended up embedded in the back of his neck. The pathologist said these gsw's were sufficient to kill had other injuries not supervened. They caused immense pain and blood loss internally and externally. NB wasn't capable of anything other than lifting his right arm in an attempt to shield himself from blows raining down from the rifle.
The moved furniture, crockery etc was most probably caused by NB stumbling into it in an attempt to flee from the perp, SC IMO.
-
These are the main points from the OS supporting Sheila being in the kitchen -
1)
Nevertheless, if you speak to a psychiatric nurse or doctor you will hear stories of very slight and petite women in psychotic states being so strong and out of control that they have only eventually been restrained by a number of people.
2)
Regardless of this, the point that is being missed continually is that Nevill had almost certainly been shot before he was hit with the butt of the rifle by Sheila.
3)
Neither has there been the consideration that Nevill could have been unconscious or dead when he was beaten.
4)
Considering the height of Nevill Bamber’s head it is unlikely that he was attacked whilst standing up.
5)
Nevill was found sitting down and it is clear that Sheila attacked Nevill with the butt of the gun after he was incapacitated while he was sitting down.
----------
Answers to the OS points -
1)
It is protocol in a hospital for several members of staff to restrain an out of control person. This prevents injury to both the staff & patient.
2)
Agree. Nevill had been shot 4 times upstairs. Twice in the face, twice in the body.
3)
Nevill was beaten on the arms & wrists. These are defence wounds. So he was not dead.
The upturned furniture, smashed ceiling light & scratched aga shows Nevill was alive.
4)
Agree very unlikely Sheila could have hit a standing up Nevill's head with such force. A much taller Bamber could.
5)
Nevill was found face down over a coal scuttle. In that position it waa impossible for Sheila to hit his face.
-
Ludicrous to even suggest that there was no fight in the kitchen. Nevill was found there with a shocking catalogue of injuries and it would seem to me that these were sustained as a result of a struggle to the death. The sugar bowl had been spilled all over the floor yet none was found on Sheila's feet? Obviously because she never set foot in the kitchen to batter Nevill. I'm just staggered that any objective observer can look at the evidence and not see that Bamber is 100 per cent guilty.
SC had to walk from kitchen to main bedroom. If any sugar was in her path then why would it adhere to her feet? It wouldn't it would detach like sand does upon leaving the beach.
-
David is staying on Blue, with his apparent Sheila letter. He knows he has to admit there was a kitchen fight & only Bamber could have been involved.
I won't chase him on Blue but he is free to PM me prior to his stance change.
-
There's no evidence of a "kitchen fight" or anything approaching.
The pathologist describes NB putting up a "spirited defense" and points out the defensive wounds to NB's right arm as opposed to his left arm which was totally impaired from the shoulder gsw sustained upstairs.
The maths and science behind the ballistics shows only 1 foot pound or 1.35 joules is required to cause a penetrating wound. The ammo and rifle used at WHF generated 91.29 feet pounds or 123.77 joules. The gsw's NB sustained to his lip and jaw upstairs were inflicted at a distance of no greater than a few inches. Bullets tore into his lip and jaw at a force of 91.29 feet pounds and ended up embedded in the back of his neck. The pathologist said these gsw's were sufficient to kill had other injuries not supervened. They caused immense pain and blood loss internally and externally. NB wasn't capable of anything other than lifting his right arm in an attempt to shield himself from blows raining down from the rifle.
The moved furniture, crockery etc was most probably caused by NB stumbling into it in an attempt to flee from the perp, SC IMO.
I agree there was no fight, Bamber made it look as though there was and beat Nevill over the had with the rifle - maybe simply for effect?
-
SC had to walk from kitchen to main bedroom. If any sugar was in her path then why would it adhere to her feet? It wouldn't it would detach like sand does upon leaving the beach.
Sugar is not sand, it is sticky. Try walking through some with tacky bare feet and then see what the result is.
-
Sugar is not sand, it is sticky. Try walking through some with tacky bare feet and then see what the result is.
A contented partner who's happy to see that you're a bit kinky? ?{)(**
-
Sugar is not sand, it is sticky. Try walking through some with tacky bare feet and then see what the result is.
Not to mention the small shards of glass all over the kitchen floor from the smashed overhead light fixture. I wonder did the police check the soles of Jeremy Bamber's footwear that morning in the same way that Sheila's were examined?
-
Sugar is not sand, it is sticky. Try walking through some with tacky bare feet and then see what the result is.
What type of sugar was it? Do soc images exist of its found location on the kitchen floor? Did soc officers take sweepings from the kitchen, hall, landing and bedrooms?
-
Not to mention the small shards of glass all over the kitchen floor from the smashed overhead light fixture. I wonder did the police check the soles of Jeremy Bamber's footwear that morning in the same way that Sheila's were examined?
Not for one moment would they have considered it necessary. The thought simply wouldn't have occurred to them. Jeremy had total control of the investigation at that point. Initially, he'd passed control of it -and responsibility for it- to well known and highly respected Nevill. Having established that, he was free to take over without being challenged. He'd called them from Goldhanger. They'd seen him arrive from Goldhanger. He'd cemented his alibi. Police deferred to him. Nothing as scientific as forensics was involved. It was simple human psychology.
-
Not to mention the small shards of glass all over the kitchen floor from the smashed overhead light fixture. I wonder did the police check the soles of Jeremy Bamber's footwear that morning in the same way that Sheila's were examined?
The lampshade was described as "broken". Where's the evidence of "small shards of glass all over the kitchen floor"? A soc image exists of the broken stock. Do soc images exist of the broken lampshade and/or "small shards of glass all over the kitchen floor"?
-
Not for one moment would they have considered it necessary. The thought simply wouldn't have occurred to them. Jeremy had total control of the investigation at that point. Initially, he'd passed control of it -and responsibility for it- to well known and highly respected Nevill. Having established that, he was free to take over without being challenged. He'd called them from Goldhanger. They'd seen him arrive from Goldhanger. He'd cemented his alibi. Police deferred to him. Nothing as scientific as forensics was involved. It was simple human psychology.
But why would the police photographer and soc officers photograph, collect and document everything of evidential value and yet overlook the spilled sugar and "shards of glass"?
Other small items photographed and/or collected and documented:
- Blood stains to carpet, hall wallpaper and kitchen worktop
- Broken stock
- Casings
- Spent bullets
-
I agree there was no fight, Bamber made it look as though there was and beat Nevill over the had with the rifle - maybe simply for effect?
The pathologist was unable to estimate the force used with NB's non-gsw injuries other than for one which he describes as "considerable force" albeit this only resulted in lacerations. NB's non-gsw's are consistent with the strength of a female perp: bruising, lacerations and fractures to skull.
Jane Andrews incapacitated her partner with a cricket bat before stabbing him to death. NB was already incapacitated from the gsw's sustained upstairs:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/24/stevenmorris
-
But why would the police photographer and soc officers photograph, collect and document everything of evidential value and yet overlook the spilled sugar and "shards of glass"?
Other small items photographed and/or collected and documented:
- Blood stains to carpet, hall wallpaper and kitchen worktop
- Broken stock
- Casings
- Spent bullets
I can't give a definitive answer because maybe there isn't one. Sounds like a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is up to. All part of the general cock-up/human failing perhaps? I can't get away from the feeling that they MAY have been slapdash because they thought they had all the evidence they needed, thanks to Jeremy
-
Supporters have claimed that people in a psychotic rage get super human strenght.This is physically impossible unless they turn into the hulk.
It is true that in hospitals, two or three members of staff will be assigned to restrain a patient that has become agressive. Whether a man or woman. This is protocol to ensure the smooth and safe resolving of the situation.
Sheila would have simply been aggressive but still physically weak. Her agressiveness would not have have taken Nevill by surprise, as he had already rang Jeremy & been shot 4 times before entering the kitchen.
-
There was a lot on the kitchen floor. Blood, broken crockery, upturned furniture, a smashed ceiling lightshade, sugar, dirt. So it is surprising that her feet were so clean and not injured.
Jeremy would have been wearing shoes. A bit advantage over a bare footed Nevill.
-
What type of sugar was it? Do soc images exist of its found location on the kitchen floor? Did soc officers take sweepings from the kitchen, hall, landing and bedrooms?
Why would it make any difference? Sugar is all chemically the same and the only real difference is that some is a bit coarser than others. My job is working with feet and experience shows me that small particles work their way everywhere. Looking at the photos it also occurs to me that cleanliness may not have been close to Godliness as far as poor old June was concerned - the house was not exactly tidy or sparkling. Sheila tripping around on a kitchen floor would have in my opinion, left significant dark marking on the sole. Her feet look clean to me.
-
Why would it make any difference? Sugar is all chemically the same and the only real difference is that some is a bit coarser than others. My job is working with feet and experience shows me that small particles work their way everywhere. Looking at the photos it also occurs to me that cleanliness may not have been close to Godliness as far as poor old June was concerned - the house was not exactly tidy or sparkling. Sheila tripping around on a kitchen floor would have in my opinion, left significant dark marking on the sole. Her feet look clean to me.
I agree, there would have been dirt particles. There are spots on her feet BUT that isn't surprising as she walked over the bedroom carpet which was covered in blood spots from June. However, they may also be just discolouration given that the pictures of the bottom of her feet (if indeed they are Sheila's) were taken at the mortuary (apparently).
-
I've looked again at the photos that Bamber has said prove his innocence. I'm a qualified chiropodist and the red marks he has circled actually look like the pattern associated with moccasin tinea pedis - a type of athletes foot very common in the population. Think he may have scored an own goal there.
-
I can't give a definitive answer because maybe there isn't one. Sounds like a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is up to. All part of the general cock-up/human failing perhaps? I can't get away from the feeling that they MAY have been slapdash because they thought they had all the evidence they needed, thanks to Jeremy
There's no evidence officers were slapdash. The police photographer took hundreds of images including small objects eg casings and large seemingly unrelated areas eg outbuildings. Why leave out "shards of glass" and spilled sugar? Soc officers collected and documented small and large objects eg casings and the blood stained blue socks. Why leave out "shards of glass" and spilled sugar?
-
There was a lot on the kitchen floor. Blood, broken crockery, upturned furniture, a smashed ceiling lightshade, sugar, dirt. So it is surprising that her feet were so clean and not injured.
Jeremy would have been wearing shoes. A bit advantage over a bare footed Nevill.
There's no evidence NB's soles were dirty or injured so would SC's be dirty and injured?
-
Why would it make any difference? Sugar is all chemically the same and the only real difference is that some is a bit coarser than others. My job is working with feet and experience shows me that small particles work their way everywhere. Looking at the photos it also occurs to me that cleanliness may not have been close to Godliness as far as poor old June was concerned - the house was not exactly tidy or sparkling. Sheila tripping around on a kitchen floor would have in my opinion, left significant dark marking on the sole. Her feet look clean to me.
I'm not sure it would make any difference, although they are different, but if spilled sugar was present I think it would be reasonable to expect police officers, especially soc and the police photographer to observe such, collect, document and photograph such? Police officers are trained to observe small details?
June was not soley responsible for the upkeep of WHF. NB was the other adult permanently residing there and the Bambers employed a housekeeper.
The pathologist did not observe any sugar that had worked it's way anywhere let alone everywhere. Same applies to NB.
Why would you expect to find marks on SC's feet but not NB's?
-
I've looked again at the photos that Bamber has said prove his innocence. I'm a qualified chiropodist and the red marks he has circled actually look like the pattern associated with moccasin tinea pedis - a type of athletes foot very common in the population. Think he may have scored an own goal there.
Even if the image pertains to SC I've no idea how the red marks prove JB's innocence?
If SC was suffering mocassin tinea pedis then I think it's something the pathologist would have observed and noted in his autopsy.
If the foot pertains to SC then IMO the marks are simply marks connected to the biological changes post death.
-
I agree, there would have been dirt particles. There are spots on her feet BUT that isn't surprising as she walked over the bedroom carpet which was covered in blood spots from June. However, they may also be just discolouration given that the pictures of the bottom of her feet (if indeed they are Sheila's) were taken at the mortuary (apparently).
Where would any dirt particles originate from? The pathologist didn't note any dirt articles to NB's feet.
If blood transferred from the main bedroom carpet to SC's feet then why was none found on the back of her nightdress?
-
There's no evidence officers were slapdash. The police photographer took hundreds of images including small objects eg casings and large seemingly unrelated areas eg outbuildings. Why leave out "shards of glass" and spilled sugar? Soc officers collected and documented small and large objects eg casings and the blood stained blue socks. Why leave out "shards of glass" and spilled sugar?
To be fair, perhaps it's only with our gift of hindsight that they were slapdash. I can go with that. For the rest, Holly, I fear it maybe nothing more than human fallibility. Even those trained in specific areas have their favourites within it -when I think about all the wonderful things I MIGHT have seen in the Hermitage, our guide must have had a degree in art history and I saw corridor after corridor of paintings- it MAY have been that both photographers chose to leave it to the other. I can't find any other middle way between them accidentally overlooking it and deliberately ignoring it.
-
There's no evidence NB's soles were dirty or injured so would SC's be dirty and injured?
Maybe because she'd allegedly been in a life or death scuffle with Nevill in your scenario. In mine where she is innocent there is no reason on earth for her to have dirty or injured feet. Are you contradicting yourself?
-
Where would any dirt particles originate from? The pathologist didn't note any dirt articles to NB's feet.
If blood transferred from the main bedroom carpet to SC's feet then why was none found on the back of her nightdress?
Why would they need to note dirt to Nevill's feet? There was no question about him being in the kitchen but for Sheila to have killed him, she would have had to be there too!
Because she didn't crawl across the carpet on her back.
-
Maybe because she'd allegedly been in a life or death scuffle with Nevill in your scenario. In mine where she is innocent there is no reason on earth for her to have dirty or injured feet. Are you contradicting yourself?
NB was not capable of entering into a life and death struggle with anyone so no I'm not contradicting myself. I thought in your scenario NB entered into a violent struggle with JB fighting over the rifle with the silencer scratching the mantle in the process? Why then would NB's soles be free of dirt, damage, shards of glass and sugar (your scenario) but not SC's (my scenario)?
-
Why would they need to note dirt to Nevill's feet? There was no question about him being in the kitchen but for Sheila to have killed him, she would have had to be there too!
The pathologist noted all manner of incidentals therefore if NB sustained debris and damage to his feet why would this go unnoticed and omitted from the autopsy?
I say there was no violent struggle between NB and SC as NB was incapacitated upstairs. Those that believe JB guilty argue there was a violent struggle and had SC been responsible she would have sustained debris and damage to her feet so why would NB avoid?
Because she didn't crawl across the carpet on her back.
If the image purported to be SC's foot is authentic IMO the marks are associated with biological changes post death. The argument they are blood stains doesn't stack up in that whether JB marched SC there or she went of her own volition she walked in an area of carpet heavily blood stained. According to Dr Vanezis and Prof Knight she was most likely sitting on the floor and then fell backwards. So if blood was capable of transferring from the carpet to her feet then why wouldn't it transfer to her seat/back of nightdress? No blood stains were found on the back of her nightdress but I'm sure this will be another conspiracy theory in the making 8(8-))
-
The pathologist noted all manner of incidentals therefore if NB sustained debris and damage to his feet why would this go unnoticed and omitted from the autopsy?
I say there was no violent struggle between NB and SC as NB was incapacitated upstairs. Those that believe JB guilty argue there was a violent struggle and had SC been responsible she would have sustained debris and damage to her feet so why would NB avoid?
If the image purported to be SC's foot is authentic IMO the marks are associated with biological changes post death. The argument they are blood stains doesn't stack up in that whether JB marched SC there or she went of her own volition she walked in an area of carpet heavily blood stained. According to Dr Vanezis and Prof Knight she was most likely sitting on the floor and then fell backwards. So if blood was capable of transferring from the carpet to her feet then why wouldn't it transfer to her seat/back of nightdress? No blood stains were found on the back of her nightdress but I'm sure this will be another conspiracy theory in the making 8(8-))
Where did I mention 'damage' - having grubby feet as far as he was concerned wouldn't have warranted a mention.
I don't believe there was a violent struggle either, I think Jeremy incapacitated Nevil, beat the crap out of him and smashed afew thugs up etc.
I didn't say the marks came from blood, I said 'could have' and also stated that they could have been from discolouration after death.
-
Where did I mention 'damage' - having grubby feet as far as he was concerned wouldn't have warranted a mention.
I don't believe there was a violent struggle either, I think Jeremy incapacitated Nevil, beat the crap out of him and smashed afew thugs up etc.
I didn't say the marks came from blood, I said 'could have' and also stated that they could have been from discolouration after death.
Sorry the post wasn't specifically in response to yours. I was covering off general claims of damage and debris from various sources.
The pathological evidence re non-gsw's doesn't support NB having the crap beaten out of him.
-
Sorry the post wasn't specifically in response to yours. I was covering off general claims of damage and debris from various sources.
The pathological evidence re non-gsw's doesn't support NB having the crap beaten out of him.
His head was battered hard enough to break the rifle. He certainly wasn't tickled with a feather (although one was present). I believe Bamber broke the light and left the kitchen in disarray.
-
His head was battered hard enough to break the rifle. He certainly wasn't tickled with a feather (although one was present). I believe Bamber broke the light and left the kitchen in disarray.
Yes the stock was found broken but there's no forensic or pathological evidence to show how this came about or the force required.
-
His head was battered hard enough to break the rifle. He certainly wasn't tickled with a feather (although one was present). I believe Bamber broke the light and left the kitchen in disarray.
Why would Bamber smash the ceiling light & leave the kitchen in disarray ?
He didn't need to leave evidence there had been a kitchen fight. A brutally beaten Nevill was there.
-
Yes the stock was found broken but there's no forensic or pathological evidence to show how this came about or the force required.
Nevill's forearms, wrists and head were hit very hard by Bamber. Resulting in Nevill's watch breaking and falling off & a lot bruising and lacerations. The stock would have fallen off during this period.
-
David created a thread saying 'I am in the process of creating a 3D reconstruction of the Kitchen. Its almost done'.
----------
This would have been interesting & maybe beneficial.
It was never posted. I did chase him up but he said he had 'never promised' this.
'
-
You would expect Sheila to definately have dirty feet. She had walked around WHF for a long period. Before, during & after the massacre. WHF was not very clean.
Blood on her feet would also be likely. There was blood on the kitchen & main bedroom floor. Sheila returned to the main bedroom to shoot June again & shoot herself. She also returned to the kitchen to chamber, breach & reload as well as burn Nevill's back.
Sugar on her feet is less likely. Wet blood on her feet may have helped sugar stick on her feet. However it is likely to fall off as she walked upstairs.
-
Injuries to Sheila's feet are less likely. She would know where everything was at WHF. So unlikely to kick, stand on or have anything fall on her feet to cause injuries.
However supporters do claim that a bit of Sheila's toe nail varnish somehow fell off her toe during the kitchen fight. And landed underneath the aga scratch's !
-
Nevill's forearms, wrists and head were hit very hard by Bamber. Resulting in Nevill's watch breaking and falling off & a lot bruising and lacerations. The stock would have fallen off during this period.
The pathologist was unable to gauge the force used in NB's non-gsw's other than one which he described as "considerable force" albeit this only resulted in a laceration. Perhaps indicative of a female perp. Had JB been responsible I think we would have seen more broken bones.
Most people wear a watch on the left wrist. NB's left arm did not sustain any non-gsw's. My day watch is bracelet style and if caught by accident can come undone. I recall an embarrassing moment when I was checking into a hotel and determined I would take a mountain of luggage on one trip from car to lobby. I had a large tote bag, med size holdall, sports holdall and lap top bag. It was wet outside and leaves blowing into lobby which I must have slipped on! I went from upright on 2 feet to skidding across the lobby on my stomach. Luggage went everywhere and watch must have come undone, bypassed whatever clothes and outwear I had on and skidded the other side of lobby! Anyway the watch may simply have been knocked off the table.
-
You would expect Sheila to definately have dirty feet. She had walked around WHF for a long period. Before, during & after the massacre. WHF was not very clean.
Blood on her feet would also be likely. There was blood on the kitchen & main bedroom floor. Sheila returned to the main bedroom to shoot June again & shoot herself. She also returned to the kitchen to chamber, breach & reload as well as burn Nevill's back.
Sugar on her feet is less likely. Wet blood on her feet may have helped sugar stick on her feet. However it is likely to fall off as she walked upstairs.
There's no evidence WHF was dirty. WHF was a working farm and the kitchen indicative of a farming couple in their 60's during the mid 80's. The place looks somewhat untidy by today's minimalist style but there's no evidence the floors were dirty. By comparison the cops involved in the Bain case describe the place as an absolute pig style with bad smells etc. I appreciate the stairs closed off near the welsh dresser appear to show damp and dirty cleaning cloths but this wasn't used and noone expected it to enter the public domain.
-
You would expect Sheila to definately have dirty feet. She had walked around WHF for a long period. Before, during & after the massacre. WHF was not very clean.
Blood on her feet would also be likely. There was blood on the kitchen & main bedroom floor. Sheila returned to the main bedroom to shoot June again & shoot herself. She also returned to the kitchen to chamber, breach & reload as well as burn Nevill's back.
Sugar on her feet is less likely. Wet blood on her feet may have helped sugar stick on her feet. However it is likely to fall off as she walked upstairs.
Apart from the blood that pooled around NB other blood in the kitchen was described as a "light distribution" contained in one area.
-
There's no evidence WHF was dirty. WHF was a working farm and the kitchen indicative of a farming couple in their 60's during the mid 80's. The place looks somewhat untidy by today's minimalist style but there's no evidence the floors were dirty. By comparison the cops involved in the Bain case describe the place as an absolute pig style with bad smells etc. I appreciate the stairs closed off near the welsh dresser appear to show damp and dirty cleaning cloths but this wasn't used and noone expected it to enter the public domain.
Come on Holly. the place wasn't clean, you can see that. You admit it was a working farm, people walking in and out of the kitchen with dusty shoes/boots. The state of the kitchen (dust wise) didn't form part of the evidence because the pictures tell a story.
-
No bloodstained clothing, towels or anything else found anywhere in the farmhouse and no blood spots on the bath or sink tells its own story imo.
However blood found under the seat of Nevill's car and on Jeremy Bamber's bathrobe in his cottage tells a different story. Maybe he cut himself shaving or just maybe he got a bloody nose in the kitchen scuffle?
-
Yes the stock was found broken but there's no forensic or pathological evidence to show how this came about or the force required.
the evidence IS, that it broke off - what kind of other evidence do you need? These things don't just drop to pieces on their own. You keep declaring there is no evidence when the evidence is quite clear, such as Nevil being battered. Venezis listed his 'other injuries' and they were extensive!
-
Come on Holly. the place wasn't clean, you can see that. You admit it was a working farm, people walking in and out of the kitchen with dusty shoes/boots. The state of the kitchen (dust wise) didn't form part of the evidence because the pictures tell a story.
Who walked in and out of the kitchen with dusty shoes/boots? The path from outside to kitchen went via the rear hall which featured the settle. I can't see any dirt/debris on the carpets? The main bedroom carpet is light colored and looks clean to my eyes apart from obviously the blood stains.
-
the evidence IS, that it broke off - what kind of other evidence do you need? These things don't just drop to pieces on their own. You keep declaring there is no evidence when the evidence is quite clear, such as Nevil being battered. Venezis listed his 'other injuries' and they were extensive!
No one is denying NB sustained injuries from a "blunt instrument" but what evidence exists to show SC was unable to inflict these injuries?
No one is denying the stock broke but what evidence exists to show SC was unable to use the rifle in some way she caused the stock to break?
-
Apart from the blood that pooled around NB other blood in the kitchen was described as a "light distribution" contained in one area.
I thought Nevill would be badly bleeding from his 4 upstairs shots. Which according to supporters were so damaging, Nevill could not have put up any resistance in the kitchen.
Blood would scatter around the kitchen from his wounds as the fight progressed. Which Sheila would stand in during the fight or afterwards when re loading. Or in both instances.
Wouldn't Sheila step in Nevill's blood when burning his back & shooting him another 4 times ? She would have to go within inches of Nevill in order to lift his pyjama top up.
-
You would expect Sheila to definately have dirty feet. She had walked around WHF for a long period. Before, during & after the massacre. WHF was not very clean.
Blood on her feet would also be likely. There was blood on the kitchen & main bedroom floor. Sheila returned to the main bedroom to shoot June again & shoot herself. She also returned to the kitchen to chamber, breach & reload as well as burn Nevill's back.
Sugar on her feet is less likely. Wet blood on her feet may have helped sugar stick on her feet. However it is likely to fall off as she walked upstairs.
I still maintain that if Sheila had been in the kitchen during the fight some grains would have been found. You would be amazed at how long small particles can adhere to feet and what crevices they can get into. The photos are not the feet of a woman who has moved about in a wrecked kitchen in my opinion. One of the best ways to incapacitate a barefoot assailant is to stamp on a foot and there is no evidence at all of this happening.
-
I still maintain that if Sheila had been in the kitchen during the fight some grains would have been found. You would be amazed at how long small particles can adhere to feet and what crevices they can get into. The photos are not the feet of a woman who has moved about in a wrecked kitchen in my opinion. One of the best ways to incapacitate a barefoot assailant is to stamp on a foot and there is no evidence at all of this happening.
I know Holly has made a valiant attempt to defend Jeremy Bamber but one simply cannot ignore the common sense approach to evidence which is before our very noses. Sheila was unfamiliar with firearms, actually hated the things, yet we are supposed to believe she picked up a weapon which she knew very little about, was able to load it twice and managed to get off over twenty shots all mostly on target and only missed once? And that is without mentioning the scuffle or fight for control of the rifle over the kitchen table in which Sheila doesn't receive a single scratch or blood from her alleged victim.
I will add this. Nevill Bamber was over six foot tall, a farmer, strong and relatively fit for his age. He was a RAF veteran pilot who fought off the Nazis over the English channel. He was quite capable of taking on a feeble young woman who might have had a melt down despite being shot with a .22 rifle. He brought up Sheila as his own, he did everything for her even renting a flat for her in London. Sheila for her part doted on her father, the whole notion that she would try to destroy him is quite ridiculous in my view and only adds to the physical evidence.
-
I still maintain that if Sheila had been in the kitchen during the fight some grains would have been found. You would be amazed at how long small particles can adhere to feet and what crevices they can get into. The photos are not the feet of a woman who has moved about in a wrecked kitchen in my opinion. One of the best ways to incapacitate a barefoot assailant is to stamp on a foot and there is no evidence at all of this happening.
On second thoughts, you could be right about the sugar. The COA said -
49.
DC Hammersley, the Scenes of Crimes Officer placed plastic bags over Sheila Caffell's hands and feet before her body was removed from the farmhouse.
He saw some blood staining to the back of the right hand, but apart from that the hands, to his eye were clean and the nails intact. The deceased's feet were also free from blood staining and from any debris such as sugar.
---------
The COA would not say this unless there would have been a good chance of sugar being on a 'dead' Sheila's feet.
-
Who walked in and out of the kitchen with dusty shoes/boots? The path from outside to kitchen went via the rear hall which featured the settle. I can't see any dirt/debris on the carpets? The main bedroom carpet is light colored and looks clean to my eyes apart from obviously the blood stains.
Everyone who came in and out of the house and dust doesn't just remain near the door or there would be no need for dusters and vacuum cleaner. You can't see small particles of dirt Holly.
-
I thought Nevill would be badly bleeding from his 4 upstairs shots. Which according to supporters were so damaging, Nevill could not have put up any resistance in the kitchen.
Blood would scatter around the kitchen from his wounds as the fight progressed. Which Sheila would stand in during the fight or afterwards when re loading. Or in both instances.
Wouldn't Sheila step in Nevill's blood when burning his back & shooting him another 4 times ? She would have to go within inches of Nevill in order to lift his pyjama top up.
The blood on the kitchen floor was described as not heavy and very light:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=217
No one reported observing bloody footprints from officers, SC, JB or bloody paw prints from Crispy.
Prof Knight testified that in his opinion the marks were not burns. I don't believe the marks are connected.
-
On second thoughts, you could be right about the sugar. The COA said -
49.
DC Hammersley, the Scenes of Crimes Officer placed plastic bags over Sheila Caffell's hands and feet before her body was removed from the farmhouse.
He saw some blood staining to the back of the right hand, but apart from that the hands, to his eye were clean and the nails intact. The deceased's feet were also free from blood staining and from any debris such as sugar.
---------
The COA would not say this unless there would have been a good chance of sugar being on a 'dead' Sheila's feet.
The CoA doc was produced by 3 lawyers. Lawyers are not forensic scientists. There's no earthly reason why SC's feet would be blood stained and/or contain sugar and/or contain debris or be damaged in some way.
The blood distribution was described as "light". The brown sugar was confined to one area and the lampshade was described as broken; there's no evidence of "shards". It's all contained in DC Hammersley's trial testimony:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=215
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=217
The state of SC's feet as found by police officers and pathologist ie clean to the naked eye and free of debris and damage is entirely consistent with SC as perp.
-
But it's not that big a kitchen. I think it is improbable that Sheila or anyone could have launched that sort of attack, which would require a lot of movement and not picked up debris or dirt. They had been harvesting that day and had been in and out of the kitchen continuously - that is a grubby and dusty job and dirt would have been shed from clothes and feet onto the floor.
-
No one is denying NB sustained injuries from a "blunt instrument" but what evidence exists to show SC was unable to inflict these injuries?
No one is denying the stock broke but what evidence exists to show SC was unable to use the rifle in some way she caused the stock to break?
I didn't say she wasn't but as we have gone over before, I don't believe for one moment she could have smacked him over the head hard enough to brake the stock of the rifle and not have him blood on her person. According to at least one source, Nevil's brain was exposed. That was some smack - try hitting a watermelon in the same manner without getting it on yourself.
-
But it's not that big a kitchen. I think it is improbable that Sheila or anyone could have launched that sort of attack, which would require a lot of movement and not picked up debris or dirt. They had been harvesting that day and had been in and out of the kitchen continuously - that is a grubby and dusty job and dirt would have been shed from clothes and feet onto the floor.
Of course!
-
The CoA doc was produced by 3 lawyers. Lawyers are not forensic scientists. There's no earthly reason why SC's feet would be blood stained and/or contain sugar and/or contain debris or be damaged in some way.
The blood distribution was described as "light". The brown sugar was confined to one area and the lampshade was described as broken; there's no evidence of "shards". It's all contained in DC Hammersley's trial testimony:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=215
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=217
The state of SC's feet as found by police officers and pathologist ie clean to the naked eye and free of debris and damage is entirely consistent with SC as perp.
Not sure what '3 lawyers' has got to do with it. They spent several weeks looking at the case, using experts & producing a 500+ point document.
As posted earlier, either blood, dirt, sugar or injuries were expected on Sheila's foot.
-
The CoA doc was produced by 3 lawyers. Lawyers are not forensic scientists. There's no earthly reason why SC's feet would be blood stained and/or contain sugar and/or contain debris or be damaged in some way.
The blood distribution was described as "light". The brown sugar was confined to one area and the lampshade was described as broken; there's no evidence of "shards". It's all contained in DC Hammersley's trial testimony:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=215
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=217
The state of SC's feet as found by police officers and pathologist ie clean to the naked eye and free of debris and damage is entirely consistent with SC as perp.
And consistent with her NOT being the perp.
-
I didn't say she wasn't but as we have gone over before, I don't believe for one moment she could have smacked him over the head hard enough to brake the stock of the rifle and not have him blood on her person. According to at least one source, Nevil's brain was exposed. That was some smack - try hitting a watermelon in the same manner without getting it on yourself.
But Dr Vanezis confirms he did not find it surprising a woman of SC's build caused NB's injuries:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=742
-
Not sure what '3 lawyers' has got to do with it. They spent several weeks looking at the case, using experts & producing a 500+ point document.
As posted earlier, either blood, dirt, sugar or injuries were expected on Sheila's foot.
Where's the expert evidence asserting had SC been responsible her feet would contain debris, sugar, blood stains, glass shards and damage?
-
And consistent with her NOT being the perp.
Yes. There's no evidence that NB's kitchen gsw's, non-gsw's and the general disarray caused blood stains, debris or shards of glass to adhere to feet or damage them whether NB as victim, SC as perp or Crispy as 4 legged witness roaming in the kitchen.
-
Yes. There's no evidence that NB's kitchen gsw's, non-gsw's and the general disarray caused blood stains, debris or shards of glass to adhere to feet or damage them whether NB as victim, SC as perp or Crispy as 4 legged witness roaming in the kitchen.
Because there is no evidence on Sheila - some times a lack of evidence is evidence!