Exhibit A and the Trial of D'Andre Lane.

[Mr Gray]

The list of things that you could claim they might alert to is endless. Your question is irrelevant. They are trained to alert to cadaver odour. The alerts are taken as an indication. That is all they are providing.

What else smells like the substance they are trained to alert to? With your logic don’t you wonder why science journals aren’t littered with research such as “do cadaver dogs alert to traffic lights “....”do cadaver dogs alert to prawn cocktail crisps”?? It must really frustrate you that instead the forensic science asks “do cadaver dogs accurately alert to cadaver odour “

they are not being used as an indication...they are being used as evidence

[G-Unit]

I thought the dogs had to be given a command before they started alerting?

Before they start searching, perhaps. No-one would command a dog to alert.

[ShiningInLuz]

The list of things that you could claim they might alert to is endless. Your question is irrelevant. They are trained to alert to cadaver odour. The alerts are taken as an indication. That is all they are providing.

What else smells like the substance they are trained to alert to? With your logic don’t you wonder why science journals aren’t littered with research such as “do cadaver dogs alert to traffic lights “....”do cadaver dogs alert to prawn cocktail crisps”?? It must really frustrate you that instead the forensic science asks “do cadaver dogs accurately alert to cadaver odour “

I know that my cadaver dog does not alert to traffic lights.  Anecdotal?  Take it or leave it as readers choose.

We don't eat prawn cocktail crisps, so I cannot attest to that.  However, I have checked on availability.  Baptista in Luz stocks them in summer.  Iceland stocks them all year round.

Should I commission the purchase of a packet in order to conduct an anecdotal experiment with Gonçalo?

 

[G-Unit]

Pretty well all wrong

I reject anectdotal evidence... Any scientist would

I have not rejected any scientific evidence... Just pointed out the  limitations of these particular studies

I've already run a search of scientific articles... None if them address the problem I've raised

In my opinion that's because the 'problem' you think you've identified isn't a problem at all. These dogs are trained and assessed with all sorts of scents around them. The FACT that they find and alert to their target scent shows that they aren't going to alert to other scents.

[Mr Gray]

In my opinion that's because the 'problem' you think you've identified isn't a problem at all. These dogs are trained and assessed with all sorts of scents around them. The FACT that they find and alert to their target scent shows that they aren't going to alert to other scents.

if what you said was true the alerts would be stand alone evidence,,,they are not...because its impossible to prove whats being alerted to if no remains are found

[Vertigo Swirl]

Before they start searching, perhaps. No-one would command a dog to alert.

I didn’t say that they would.

[Angelo222]

But you do understand that they are trained to alert to cadaver odour. It is made up of specific volatile organic compounds. Your objection to their efficacy could go on ad infinitum. There could be billions of things that you could say they will false alert to. It’s impossible to test all those items. It’s also ridiculous and unscientific to suggest it. Why would Eddie alert to mouthwash when he’s been trained to alert to cadaver odour... He does this with 92-100% accuracy. This alert is then a tool. It points a forensic team to a certain area. Nothing more... nothing less.

Eddie wasn't since Grime had no access to human remains prior Maddie's disappearance. Didn't he make a video on a beach showing that he used some bone material to train his dogs in the UK?

No two dogs have the same ability and no two dogs are trained the same. Every dog is unique, like humans, some are good at what they do while others aren't.

[barrier]

Eddie wasn't since Grime had no access to human remains prior Maddie's disappearance. Didn't he make a video on a beach showing that he used some bone material to train his dogs in the UK?

When did Grime train eddie on human remains in the us then?


He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I.

[G-Unit]

if what you said was true the alerts would be stand alone evidence,,,they are not...because its impossible to prove whats being alerted to if no remains are found

It's impossible for scientists to confirm it. Scientific evidence isn't the gold standard you think it is though. Scientists have made mistakes and convictions have been overtrned.

Dog alerts can be used as circumstantial evidence when they are telling the same story as other evidence.

[ShiningInLuz]

Eddie wasn't since Grime had no access to human remains prior Maddie's disappearance. Didn't he make a video on a beach showing that he used some bone material to train his dogs in the UK?

No two dogs have the same ability and no two dogs are trained the same. Every dog is unique, like humans, some are good at what they do while others aren't.

Due to a comment or two on here, I have been researching the use of police dogs in New Zealand.

The dogs can fail their training programme, or can be retired.  Such dogs can be adopted, but it seems the new owner must get the dog castrated or spayed first.

[Mr Gray]

It's impossible for scientists to confirm it. Scientific evidence isn't the gold standard you think it is though. Scientists have made mistakes and convictions have been overtrned.

Dog alerts can be used as circumstantial evidence when they are telling the same story as other evidence.

Science is the gold standard... There's nothing better... It's not perfect but it is still the gold standard.  The problem is you reject science if you don't agree with it... Grime wants a scientific basis for the alerts... That's the right thing to do

[Mr Gray]

It's impossible for scientists to confirm it. Scientific evidence isn't the gold standard you think it is though. Scientists have made mistakes and convictions have been overtrned.

Dog alerts can be used as circumstantial evidence when they are telling the same story as other evidence.

That is a circular argument IMO... As I said... Smithman saw Gerry.. Cadaver dog... Strong evidence.
Grime never mentioned anectdotal witness statements as corroboration until he went to the US... That's where he seems to have picked it up... That isn't what he was, saying in Luz

[Wonderfulspam]

That is a circular argument IMO... As I said... Smithman saw Gerry.. Cadaver dog... Strong evidence.
Grime never mentioned anectdotal witness statements as corroboration until he went to the US... That's where he seems to have picked it up... That isn't what he was, saying in Luz

Smithman saw Gerry?

What did he do, look in the mirror?

[pathfinder73]

Eddie wasn't since Grime had no access to human remains prior Maddie's disappearance. Didn't he make a video on a beach showing that he used some bone material to train his dogs in the UK?

No two dogs have the same ability and no two dogs are trained the same. Every dog is unique, like humans, some are good at what they do while others aren't.

EVRD used to be trained using swine (pigs) as their odour is the closest to that of humans. But most of the time, however, the dog was trained using the odour of a human cadaver. Operationally, the dog has ignored large amounts of animal remains/bones when locating human decomposition.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time. The dog has however considerable experience in operational recovery of human remains and evidential forensic material and has trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog involves the use of collection of 'Dead body scent' odour from corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact.

The dog has never alerted to 'road kill'
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

[Mr Gray]

EVRD used to be trained using swine (pigs) as their odour is the closest to that of humans. But most of the time, however, the dog was trained using the odour of a human cadaver. Operationally, the dog has ignored large amounts of animal remains/bones when locating human decomposition.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time. The dog has however considerable experience in operational recovery of human remains and evidential forensic material and has trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog involves the use of collection of 'Dead body scent' odour from corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact.

The dog has never alerted to 'road kill'
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

No one knows what Eddie alerts to if nothing is found