Jeremy Bamber’s Proven Lies

[ISpyWithMyEye]

Thanks---I had missed that, although I recall Jeremy described Sheila as a "nutter".

IMO, Sheila was in no way a psychopath. Jeremy fits the bill far better. However, having never met either of them, and not being a psychiatrist, I'm really in no position to state either as fact.

I agree with you, Mrswah, but we can only go by what first-hand witnesses have said; what her doctors said; and what all the highly experienced investigators said after studying all the factual evidence.

[ISpyWithMyEye]

As a former school teacher you may well be familiar with attachment theory?   I know it is covered on PGCE courses today.  It has an evolutionary basis to it and involves how babies/toddlers/small children bond with their primary caregivers.  If this goes awry it can cause problems during the attachment phase circa 2 years with the potential for various issues including learning.  At the extreme end a correlation exists between attachment disorders and psychopathy.  During 1959, when SC was 2 yoa, June suffered severe depression requiring in-patient psychiatric care and ECT.  Imo this was at the root of SC's problems and mental illness.

Holly, please desist from going off-topic and posting your unfounded suppositions.

But as you’ve tried to imply Sheila may have been a psychopath when there’s absolutely NO truth in that whatsoever, I can inform you that nothing and no-one can turn a person into a psychopath.

Psychopathy is not a mental illness: it’s a personality DISORDER which you’re either born with or can be caused by a brain injury. Such as the head injury Jeremy suffered when he was accidentally dropped on his head...

[ISpyWithMyEye]

Yes, I'm certainly familiar with attachment theory, and IMO, you make a valid point about June's relationship with Sheila.

MrsWah, with all due respect being a school teacher does not make one a medical expert in psychiatric disorders.

Sheila never displayed any signs of disturbance at school and she was a very popular girl with several close friends. She was also very sweet and caring, as all her teachers attested. She doted on animals; was caring, kind, and considerate.

The one who DID show signs of psychopathy as a child was Jeremy!

He used to taunt Sheila and make her cry by hitting her small animals with big sticks and throwing big stones at baby ducklings.

If anyone caused her pain it was Jeremy....

It is true that June wasn’t a typically affectionate mother, but Nevill made up for that which is why Sheila had he were so close.

[ISpyWithMyEye]

As a former school teacher you may well be familiar with attachment theory?   I know it is covered on PGCE courses today.  It has an evolutionary basis to it and involves how babies/toddlers/small children bond with their primary caregivers.  If this goes awry it can cause problems during the attachment phase circa 2 years with the potential for various issues including learning.  At the extreme end a correlation exists between attachment disorders and psychopathy.  During 1959, when SC was 2 yoa, June suffered severe depression requiring in-patient psychiatric care and ECT.  Imo this was at the root of SC's problems and mental illness.

You’re not a psychiatrist, Holly, so your opinion is of no significance.

There’s thousands of people suffering from various disorders, and they don’t all become mass murderers.

You only have to look at some of the crazy, illogical ramblings some people make on the internet and how some people are clearly suffering from undiagnosed conditions. Some people who post on forums are seriously deluded; appear devoid of logical reasoning even when facts are staring them in their face; and make laughable claims without realising it’s THEY who are in need of treatment or/and therapy...

[ISpyWithMyEye]

Everything I post is imo evidenced led.

My interpretation of SC's early start in life and all the physical evidence at soc leads me to conclude she was responsible.

JB did not live at WHF and did not have any say in SC's life unlike her adoptive parents particularly her mother.

SC discussed with her psychiatrist morbid thoughts re her twin sons and her mother.  She never mentioned JB and there's no evidence she viewed her father as anything other than positive.  Although the psychiatrist did say if her father made any suggestion about her being separated from her children he would expect her to react very strongly.  According to JB her parents were discussing fostering of the twins.

You’re not posting facts, Holly.

You’re distorting.

And your conclusion that Sheila was the murderer highlights your lack of reasoning.

You’re in no position to suggest Sheila was affected by June’s breakdown when Sheila was only two-years-old. You’re not medically trained, and you’re completely biased. You WANT to believe Jeremy us innocent, and you should concentrate more on why that is...

Even your so-called “facts” are wrong. Jeremy DID live at WHF. He, like Sheila, moved out in their 20s when their parents’ bought them properties.

And please DESIST from wrongly saying June and Nevill were discussing the twins being fostered? That’s a wicked lie! You’re quoting the evil mass murderer, Jeremy, who’s bamboozled you.

June was saying to Pamela that she was WORRIED that if Sheila didn’t improve the children might be put into foster care — which terrified June!

Stop sullying dead people who were murdered!

Besides, Colin had custody of the twins and would never have allowed such a thing to happen, so stop perpetuating untrue rumours in order to blacken Sheila’s name, and June’s, just because you have a massive desire for a convicted evil child murderer who also killed both his parents and sister, to be set free!

I don’t understand why you’re so wrapped up in the psychopath...

[The General]

You’re not a psychiatrist, Holly, so your opinion is of no significance.

There’s thousands of people suffering from various disorders, and they don’t all become mass murderers.

You only have to look at some of the crazy, illogical ramblings some people make on the internet and how some people are clearly suffering from undiagnosed conditions. Some people who post on forums are seriously deluded; appear devoid of logical reasoning even when facts are staring them in their face; and make laughable claims without realising it’s THEY who are in need of treatment or/and therapy...

Incidentally, I like your comment somewhere else that explains why he didn't torch the place, but considered it, as that's exactly what I would have done (if I'd have been a low-functioning, sociopathic narcissist intent on killing my entire family for inheritance at a remote farmhouse that was a veritable tinderbox).

[APRIL]

You’re not posting facts, Holly.

You’re distorting.

And your conclusion that Sheila was the murderer highlights your lack of reasoning.

You’re in no position to suggest Sheila was affected by June’s breakdown when Sheila was only two-years-old. You’re not medically trained, and you’re completely biased. You WANT to believe Jeremy us innocent, and you should concentrate more on why that is...

Even your so-called “facts” are wrong. Jeremy DID live at WHF. He, like Sheila, moved out in their 20s when their parents’ bought them properties.

And please DESIST from wrongly saying June and Nevill were discussing the twins being fostered? That’s a wicked lie! You’re quoting the evil mass murderer, Jeremy, who’s bamboozled you.

June was saying to Pamela that she was WORRIED that if Sheila didn’t improve the children might be put into foster care — which terrified June!

Stop sullying dead people who were murdered!

Besides, Colin had custody of the twins and would never have allowed such a thing to happen, so stop perpetuating untrue rumours in order to blacken Sheila’s name, and June’s, just because you have a massive desire for a convicted evil child murderer who also killed both his parents and sister, to be set free!

I don’t understand why you’re so wrapped up in the psychopath...

Again, Spy, your enthusiasm is causing you to be unfair. Holly is absolutely correct in suggesting that Sheila was affected by separation from June. It may have been the case of a separation too many. Babies bond with their mothers in the w..b. For 9 months they are part of her. They hear her voice, arguably, they may be affected by her emotions, they live whatever lifestyle she leads. We know that in a matter of weeks, post birth, a baby recognizes it's mothers footfall, smell, voice, arms. In those few weeks, a baby waking to find itself in the arms, not of it's mother, but a strange woman, will cry. We know that during those times of hospital stays when parents weren't allowed to visit, a child would go from being hysterically/angrily/pleadingly tearful -during which time it was labeled as being naughty, to being quiet and compliant, when it was said to be behaving itself. We now understand that the child was displaying symptoms of depression because of maternal separation. Sheila, in her first few years was passed from one matriarchal figure to another. There was no permanency,  added to which, it appears that June, who was to have offered permanency, didn't find motherhood easy, suffering a nervous breakdown as a result, and lacked natural maternal instinct.

[ISpyWithMyEye]

I realise that babies/children who are separated from their mothers are affected deeply by that, which often leads to feelings of insecurity in later life. It’s very sad and is heartbreaking.

However, thousands of babies have been adopted over the years: I myself have a very close family member who was adopted as a baby and she has turned into a wonderfully happy woman with a fabulous career and family of her own, and she totally DOTES on her parents as they do her. They are her mum and dad, and she is their daughter. They’re actually closer than many people I know who have grown up with their biological parents. Perhaps she was one of the lucky ones: she had a wonderful upbringing; a very privileged one too; and has never felt insecure or an outsider.

I do agree that June was probably unsuitable for adopting a baby, and I suspect the infertility which afflicted either herself or Nevill made June very bitter, which is sad. I’ve even wondered if June was jealous of Sheila, not just because she was so stunningly pretty, but because Nevill doted on Sheila and although that was perfectly normal, June may have resented Nevill loving Sheila as his daughter when she wasn’t their biological child. I also think that’s why June seemed to show more love towards the twins and even wanted to adopt them at one stage: psychologically she found it easier to bond with the twins as they were a generation removed, so she didn’t feel what to her was the stigma of being an adopted mother and constantly reminded, albeit subconsciously, that she herself couldn’t conceive.

[APRIL]

I realise that babies/children who are separated from their mothers are affected deeply by that, which often leads to feelings of insecurity in later life. It’s very sad and is heartbreaking.

However, thousands of babies have been adopted over the years: I myself have a very close family member who was adopted as a baby and she has turned into a wonderfully happy woman with a fabulous career and family of her own, and she totally DOTES on her parents as they do her. They are her mum and dad, and she is their daughter. They’re actually closer than many people I know who have grown up with their biological parents. Perhaps she was one of the lucky ones: she had a wonderful upbringing; a very privileged one too; and has never felt insecure or an outsider.

I do agree that June was probably unsuitable for adopting a baby, and I suspect the infertility which afflicted either herself or Nevill made June very bitter, which is sad. I’ve even wondered if June was jealous of Sheila, not just because she was so stunningly pretty, but because Nevill doted on Sheila and although that was perfectly normal, June may have resented Nevill loving Sheila as his daughter when she wasn’t their biological child. I also think that’s why June seemed to show more love towards the twins and even wanted to adopt them at one stage: psychologically she found it easier to bond with the twins as they were a generation removed, so she didn’t feel what to her was the stigma of being an adopted mother and constantly reminded, albeit subconsciously, that she herself couldn’t conceive.

I concur with all you say.

It's gratifying to be reminded that the huge majority of adoptions are successful.

Your point, suggesting that June may have been jealous of Sheila eg her stunning looks, her youth, her closeness with Nevill, her fertility, is entirely valid. So, too, are the reasons you give for her being able to dote on the twins. I will add, to that, one of my own. They were innocent. I believe Sheila's blossoming sexuality may have been something June recognized before Sheila was aware of it. It MAY simply have been that June feared for her, but the old and ugly thing about illegitimacy and stained characters raises it's head.

[ISpyWithMyEye]

I concur with all you say.

It's gratifying to be reminded that the huge majority of adoptions are successful.

Your point, suggesting that June may have been jealous of Sheila eg her stunning looks, her youth, her closeness with Nevill, her fertility, is entirely valid. So, too, are the reasons you give for her being able to dote on the twins. I will add, to that, one of my own. They were innocent. I believe Sheila's blossoming sexuality may have been something June recognized before Sheila was aware of it. It MAY simply have been that June feared for her, but the old and ugly thing about illegitimacy and stained characters raises it's head.

You raise a very valid point: I too suspect June felt envy at Sheila’s blossoming maturity and potential fertility, and it reminded her of her own infertility or the fact she was unable to have a baby of her own with Nevill.  That’s possibly why she viewed naked bodies as shameful, and seemed to suggest sex was sinful. One can only imagine the difficulties Nevill had with June later in life if she became frigid and wanted no intimacy with him. Many people assume couples no longer have a loving sex life as they age, but that isn’t true. Many people enjoy the closeness it brings up until they’re simply too old to desire it, and people in their early 60s are not deemed to be past it in this day and age. But I suspect every intimate pass Nevill made at June reminded her of their inability to have their own children, and to compensate for possibly being frigid to his advances she turned to the church as a distraction.

Nevill told his secretary June was no longer the girl she once was, and when they first met he’d caused a stir amongst the local women: he was tall, sporty, good fun, ex RAF, and came from an affluent family — so he was quite the catch. June too was a catch. Besides also coming from a wealthy family, she was intelligent, sporty, and was pretty. She seemed to turn into a frump, though, albeit well turned-out, and never displayed her femininity by wearing glamorous dresses or shoes on special occasions. She was a typical brogues and tweed skirt lady.

I also think there was a lot of depression in that house. Not with Nevill, who kept himself busy on the farm and enjoyed social occasions where he was gregarious, funny, enjoyed a drink, was generous, kind and enjoyed parties. The depression stemmed from June, and a huge sign of that was how little interest she took in furnishing the house nicely and keeping it homely. It looked gloomy, unloved and messy — all typical signs of depression.

[Caroline]

Everything I post is imo evidenced led.

My interpretation of SC's early start in life and all the physical evidence at soc leads me to conclude she was responsible.

JB did not live at WHF and did not have any say in SC's life unlike her adoptive parents particularly her mother.

SC discussed with her psychiatrist morbid thoughts re her twin sons and her mother.  She never mentioned JB and there's no evidence she viewed her father as anything other than positive.  Although the psychiatrist did say if her father made any suggestion about her being separated from her children he would expect her to react very strongly.  According to JB her parents were discussing fostering of the twins.

It's selective.

[puglove]

You raise a very valid point: I too suspect June felt envy at Sheila’s blossoming maturity and potential fertility, and it reminded her of her own infertility or the fact she was unable to have a baby of her own with Nevill.  That’s possibly why she viewed naked bodies as shameful, and seemed to suggest sex was sinful. One can only imagine the difficulties Nevill had with June later in life if she became frigid and wanted no intimacy with him. Many people assume couples no longer have a loving sex life as they age, but that isn’t true. Many people enjoy the closeness it brings up until they’re simply too old to desire it, and people in their early 60s are not deemed to be past it in this day and age. But I suspect every intimate pass Nevill made at June reminded her of their inability to have their own children, and to compensate for possibly being frigid to his advances she turned to the church as a distraction.

Nevill told his secretary June was no longer the girl she once was, and when they first met he’d caused a stir amongst the local women: he was tall, sporty, good fun, ex RAF, and came from an affluent family — so he was quite the catch. June too was a catch. Besides also coming from a wealthy family, she was intelligent, sporty, and was pretty. She seemed to turn into a frump, though, albeit well turned-out, and never displayed her femininity by wearing glamorous dresses or shoes on special occasions. She was a typical brogues and tweed skirt lady.

I also think there was a lot of depression in that house. Not with Nevill, who kept himself busy on the farm and enjoyed social occasions where he was gregarious, funny, enjoyed a drink, was generous, kind and enjoyed parties. The depression stemmed from June, and a huge sign of that was how little interest she took in furnishing the house nicely and keeping it homely. It looked gloomy, unloved and messy — all typical signs of depression.

Good post, Spy.

[APRIL]

You raise a very valid point: I too suspect June felt envy at Sheila’s blossoming maturity and potential fertility, and it reminded her of her own infertility or the fact she was unable to have a baby of her own with Nevill.  That’s possibly why she viewed naked bodies as shameful, and seemed to suggest sex was sinful. One can only imagine the difficulties Nevill had with June later in life if she became frigid and wanted no intimacy with him. Many people assume couples no longer have a loving sex life as they age, but that isn’t true. Many people enjoy the closeness it brings up until they’re simply too old to desire it, and people in their early 60s are not deemed to be past it in this day and age. But I suspect every intimate pass Nevill made at June reminded her of their inability to have their own children, and to compensate for possibly being frigid to his advances she turned to the church as a distraction.

Nevill told his secretary June was no longer the girl she once was, and when they first met he’d caused a stir amongst the local women: he was tall, sporty, good fun, ex RAF, and came from an affluent family — so he was quite the catch. June too was a catch. Besides also coming from a wealthy family, she was intelligent, sporty, and was pretty. She seemed to turn into a frump, though, albeit well turned-out, and never displayed her femininity by wearing glamorous dresses or shoes on special occasions. She was a typical brogues and tweed skirt lady.

I also think there was a lot of depression in that house. Not with Nevill, who kept himself busy on the farm and enjoyed social occasions where he was gregarious, funny, enjoyed a drink, was generous, kind and enjoyed parties. The depression stemmed from June, and a huge sign of that was how little interest she took in furnishing the house nicely and keeping it homely. It looked gloomy, unloved and messy — all typical signs of depression.

That, IMO, is a 100% accurate assessment.

It's also possible that June's choice of attire was an unconscious way of stopping Nevill's advances. It may well have been that she believed the only function of sex was procreation? That for any other purpose, it was sinful? An irony, isn't it, that such a heinous sin provided her with the children she was unable to conceive.

 Having only seen the kitchen -which is no different from the many other farmhouse kitchen's I've seen- I can't comment. However, whilst all these kitchens leave something to be desired, all other rooms are tastefully furnished, a la shabby chic, but probably go years between redecorating. Nevill, I know to have been much admired and his company much sought after at social gatherings. He was, as you say, a catch.

[mrswah]

MrsWah, with all due respect being a school teacher does not make one a medical expert in psychiatric disorders.

Sheila never displayed any signs of disturbance at school and she was a very popular girl with several close friends. She was also very sweet and caring, as all her teachers attested. She doted on animals; was caring, kind, and considerate.

The one who DID show signs of psychopathy as a child was Jeremy!

He used to taunt Sheila and make her cry by hitting her small animals with big sticks and throwing big stones at baby ducklings.

If anyone caused her pain it was Jeremy....

It is true that June wasn’t a typically affectionate mother, but Nevill made up for that which is why Sheila had he were so close.

You're right, I'm certainly not an expert in psychiatric disorders.

However, "attachment theory" isn't directly to do with psychiatric disorders. It's about the possible effect on a child of being (temporarily or permanently) deprived of a primary carer when young. In SOME cases, this may lead to mental health issues later.  Trainee teachers and psychology students (and I've been both) are required to study it.

It's a theory, rather than a certainty (google John Bowlby, if you like, and you'll find out about it), but it makes some sense to me.

[mrswah]

Incidentally, does anyone know how old Sheila and Jeremy were when they discovered they were adopted?