Why did Sheila have an INCREASED amount of Haloperidol in her system?

[mrswah]

It doesn't chip easily.  If it did why would anyone bother polishing their finger/toenails?

Very much depends what you do after painting them, I would imagine.

[ISpyWithMyEye]

Yes!  Might be different if I were a lady of leisure, I suppose!!

So, did Sheila definitely NOT have false nails?  Scott Lomax says she did, and that Ann found one of them after the murders. Not sure whether he means actual false nails or acrylics. Were acrylics around in the 1980's?  I know most people, if not everybody  on here will tell me not to take any notice of Scott Lomax, but I don't believe he got everything wrong. He claims to have seen photos of Sheila's non perfect nails, but then, I suppose I'll be told these photos are fakes.

No wonder I can't make up my mind!

Any evidence of these photos?

Doubt it, but thought I’d ask...😌

[Holly Goodhead]

No the magazine and cartridges are about 4 times the size of those used at WHF.  I will find images for you but it might be tomorrow as I get sleepy about now.

Here's the key features doc for the cartridges.  As you will see they are 25.4 mm in length and weigh 2.46 grams.  From memory they are about 5mm to 7mm in diameter.  The magazine is just big enough to accommodate them. I will try to find the precise measurements for the mag.

When I first handled them I was surprised to find them so small.  If you're interested I would recommend going along to a gun shop and asking if you can have a look and handle them.  I told the man in the shop I was carrying out some research into the case and he was happy to help.  You can't purchase them as you need a licence.  I offered to buy the box he opened but he said they use them all the time so it wasn't a problem.  They're only about a fiver a box.

https://eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow/

[ISpyWithMyEye]

Very much depends what you do after painting them, I would imagine.

Well, I haven’t washed-up in decades as I use a dishwasher, nor do I iron or garden...

But I do housework, and I cook.

Even on holiday you need to redo your polish every day or so if your nails are real...depends how fussy you are, I guess

[Holly Goodhead]

You neglected to answer my question, Holly; how long did it take you to load that .22 mag?

The man in the shop just handed me a box of cartridges and the magazine.  No instruction was given or asked for.  The first cartridge I attempted to load the wrong way and realised immediately it was the other way round which took I guess 10 - 15 secs.  Thereafter I guess it was around 5 - 10 secs to load each cartridge.  I would liken the task to inserting batteries to a TV remote.  There's nothing remotely complicated about it.  You would need to suffer severe learning disabilities to find any trouble with it as it's obvious and intuitive.  The magazine is designed so you can only insert them the right way so even if you attempt to load them the wrong way as I did you realise in seconds they go the other way.

JB said he left the mag with 8 - 10 cartridges in.  But for those who disbelieve JB, the perp would only be time pressured with the first load where the evidence supports June sustaining 6 gsw's and NB 4 gsw's which incapacitated them to such a degree the pathologist said if other shots hadn't supervened they would have died from these initial gsw's. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Re the above I would say the most difficult/fiddly part was actually retrieving the cartridge from the box where each cartridge is faced bullet down into individual holes. I guess this is the reason JB spilled them out on the kitchen top when he loaded them.

I wrongly assumed they would be loose in a box like say a box of drawing pins.

[ISpyWithMyEye]

The man in the shop just handed me a box of cartridges and the magazine.  No instruction was given or asked for.  The first cartridge I attempted to load the wrong way and realised immediately it was the other way round which took I guess 10 - 15 secs.  Thereafter I guess it was around 5 - 10 secs to load each cartridge.  I would liken the task to inserting batteries to a TV remote.  There's nothing remotely complicated about it.  You would need to suffer severe learning disabilities to find any trouble with it as it's obvious and intuitive.  The magazine is designed so you can only insert them the right way so even if you attempt to load them the wrong way as I did you realise in seconds they go the other way.

JB said he left the mag with 8 - 10 cartridges in.  But for those who disbelieve JB, the perp would only be time pressured with the first load where the evidence supports June sustaining 6 gsw's and NB 4 gsw's which incapacitated them to such a degree the pathologist said if other shots hadn't supervened they would have died from these initial gsw's.

Your last paragraph doesn’t make sense

No-one’s suggested June and Nevill weren’t first shot 10 times between them

What’s THAT got to do with loading cartridges?

Besides, just because the perp, Jeremy Bamber claimed he’d left the gun in the kitchen (or the settle in the scullery, depending which lie you listen to), he would’ve lied about the amount of cartridges he said were in there too...

He is a liar, remember, Holly

[Caroline]

But do you find your own nails and ordinary polish break and chip easily?

Natural nails are worse - that's the point of acrylics etc.

[Holly Goodhead]

Your last paragraph doesn’t make sense

No-one’s suggested June and Nevill weren’t first shot 10 times between them

What’s THAT got to do with loading cartridges?

Besides, just because the perp, Jeremy Bamber claimed he’d left the gun in the kitchen (or the settle in the scullery, depending which lie you listen to), he would’ve lied about the amount of cartridges he said were in there too...

He is a liar, remember, Holly

Whether JB or SC they were only under time pressure to load the first magazine as the gsw's June and NB sustained from the first load severely incapacitated them. I assume whether JB or SC they were already tooled up prior to the victims knowing they were about to come under attack. Therefore there was no time pressure to load the magazine whether the first round or rounds thereafter.

I do not believe JB is a liar.  I do not believe the evidence by way of ballistics, biological, pathological or psychological supports JB committing the murders.

[Holly Goodhead]

Natural nails are worse - that's the point of acrylics etc.

Acrylic lasts longer yes. But there's no evidence natural nails and the sort of polish commonly used in the mid 80's would break and chip all over the place.  If it did what would be the point in drawing attention to the nails by wearing them long and applying bright red polish? 

[ISpyWithMyEye]

Whether JB or SC they were only under time pressure to load the first magazine as the gsw's June and NB sustained from the first load severely incapacitated them. I assume whether JB or SC they were already tooled up prior to the victims knowing they were about to come under attack. Therefore there was no time pressure to load the magazine whether the first round or rounds thereafter.

I do not believe JB is a liar.  I do not believe the evidence by way of ballistics, biological, pathological or psychological supports JB committing the murders.

So you’re saying Sheila supposedly had a psychotic episode, but had the wherewithal to realise she was under pressure to kill them quickly?


And you’re saying that when this psychotic attack supposedly happened out of the blue, Sheila made sure she was “tooled up” with spare cartridges?

Where would she have held these spare cartridges? In her mouth? How many did she think she’d NEED to kill them? Why shoot her sons in the head and face about six times each? Surely one bullet would be enough for someone in a psychotic rage?

Holly, I suggest you go into business with Aunt Agatha ...you and she can tell the courts that the jury got it wrong and you don’t believe Jeremy Bamber is a liar.

Lots of luck!

[Holly Goodhead]

So you’re saying Sheila supposedly had a psychotic episode, but had the wherewithal to realise she was under pressure to kill them quickly?

Where have I even alluded to this?  I said whether one believes JB or SC providing the magazine was loaded to full capacity before the victims were aware they were under attack then there was no time pressure thereafter as the wounds June and NB sustained from the first load severeley incapacitated them to such a degree the pathologist said had other shots not supervened they would have died from the initial wounds.

And you’re saying that when this psychotic attack supposedly happened out of the blue, Sheila made sure she was “tooled up” with spare cartridges?

That's not what I said at all. I said after the first round time was not of the essence.

Where would she have held these spare cartridges? In her mouth? How many did she think she’d NEED to kill them? Why shoot her sons in the head and face about six times each? Surely one bullet would be enough for someone in a psychotic rage?

Holly, I suggest you go into business with Aunt Agatha ...you and she can tell the courts that the jury got it wrong and you don’t believe Jeremy Bamber is a liar.

Lots of luck!

There was no need for anyone to carry cartridges on their person.

The court was told at trial that overkill is often a feature of "altruistic" killings:

90.  Dr Bradley, another Consultant Psychiatrist, was also called by the defence during the trial to give general evidence of the features of "altruistic" killings and to confirm that it was not unusual that a female murderer should not have a history of previous violence. He also gave evidence that where parents kill children there may be an element of "over-kill" or the infliction of excessive violence.

[Caroline]

Acrylic lasts longer yes. But there's no evidence natural nails and the sort of polish commonly used in the mid 80's would break and chip all over the place.  If it did what would be the point in drawing attention to the nails by wearing them long and applying bright red polish?

No one is saying they would chip and break all over the place but I imagine that with such nails, women would avoid loading a rifle magazine several times and shooting their family. Another issue - how many people who contemplate suicide, decide to wash clothes?

[APRIL]

Where have I even alluded to this?  I said whether one believes JB or SC providing the magazine was loaded to full capacity before the victims were aware they were under attack then there was no time pressure thereafter as the wounds June and NB sustained from the first load severeley incapacitated them to such a degree the pathologist said had other shots not supervened they would have died from the initial wounds.
 

That's not what I said at all. I said after the first round time was not of the essence.

There was no need for anyone to carry cartridges on their person.

The court was told at trial that overkill is often a feature of "altruistic" killings:

90.  Dr Bradley, another Consultant Psychiatrist, was also called by the defence during the trial to give general evidence of the features of "altruistic" killings and to confirm that it was not unusual that a female murderer should not have a history of previous violence. He also gave evidence that where parents kill children there may be an element of "over-kill" or the infliction of excessive violence.

Surely the counter balance to 90 is Dr Ferguson who, whilst speaking of how Sheila might react to threats made about the removal of her children -and there is no proof that any such threat was made- believed it to be unlikely under other circumstances?

[The General]

How long did it take you load the mag Holly?
Apparently Sheila did it twice.