Another view of dog evidence

[icabodcrane]

Does anyone know how Martin Grimes squares the fact that cadaverine comes from any decomposing human material and not just a corpse?

I have also read that cadaverine is partially responsible for the distinctive odours in urine.

The question that screams at me from your post is  : 

Why wasn't the dog alerting all  over the place  ?

...  I mean if he alerts to anything from traces of dead bodies to human blood and pee  ... why was it only  the McCann's apartment that this lack of discrimination manifested itself in  ? 

[Eleanor]

Does anyone know how Martin Grimes squares the fact that cadaverine comes from any decomposing human material and not just a corpse?

I have also read that cadaverine is partially responsible for the distinctive odours in urine.

The question that screams at me from your post is  : 

Why wasn't the dog alerting all  over the place  ?

...  I mean if he alerts to anything from traces of dead bodies to human blood and pee  ... why was it only  the McCann's apartment that this lack of discrimination manifested itself in  ?

You might care to look at how Martin Grime deployed his dogs.

[icabodcrane]

Does anyone know how Martin Grimes squares the fact that cadaverine comes from any decomposing human material and not just a corpse?

I have also read that cadaverine is partially responsible for the distinctive odours in urine.

The question that screams at me from your post is  : 

Why wasn't the dog alerting all  over the place  ?

...  I mean if he alerts to anything from traces of dead bodies to human blood and pee  ... why was it only  the McCann's apartment that this lack of discrimination manifested itself in  ?

You might care to look at how Martin Grime deployed his dogs.

Won't do

Either the dog is incompetent and alerts all over the place to any number of scents, regardless of his handler's abilities

Or the dog is efficient and alerts only to the thing  he is  trained to alert to  (  dead bodies )  and the handler  is incompetent  (   cueing and influencing  ) 

You can't have it both  ways  ...  because if  both the dog and the handler   were as shite as you and your cohorts suggest,  then  there would have been alerts here,  there,  and  everywhere   ... 

That's not what happened though,  was it  ? 

[Eleanor]

It might have been a better idea to give the dogs as much time in other places as were given in places pertaining to The McCanns.  But if you can't see that then there is nothing I can do to help you.

[icabodcrane]

It might have been a better idea to give the dogs as much time in other places as were given in places pertaining to The McCanns.  But if you can't see that then there is nothing I can do to help you.

You have absolutely  no idea  how much  'time'  the dogs were given in other places   

You have no evidence to base that statement on   ...  do you  ?

[Eleanor]

It might have been a better idea to give the dogs as much time in other places as were given in places pertaining to The McCanns.  But if you can't see that then there is nothing I can do to help you.

You have absolutely  no idea  how much  'time'  the dogs were given in other places   

You have no evidence to base that statement on   ...  do you  ?

Do you?  Did you see all of that running around and pulling back in the car park?  Did you see the same thing happening in the appartment?  That evidence would have been laughed out of Court.

Neve mind, don't answer that.  It doesn't matter.  You just go on having a good time trying to make the life of someone else even more of a misery than it is already is, although I doubt that it will make your miserable life any better.  And it won't get charges brought  against The McCanns.  Your  hatecampaign has failed.  It is over.

[icabodcrane]

It might have been a better idea to give the dogs as much time in other places as were given in places pertaining to The McCanns.  But if you can't see that then there is nothing I can do to help you.

You have absolutely  no idea  how much  'time'  the dogs were given in other places   

You have no evidence to base that statement on   ...  do you  ?

Do you?  Did you see all of that running around and pulling back in the car park?  Did you see the same thing happening in the appartment?  That evidence would have been laughed out of Court.

Neve mind, don't answer that.  It doesn't matter.  You just go on having a good time trying to make the life of someone else even more of a misery than it is already is, although I doubt that it will make your miserable life any better.  And it won't get charges brought  against The McCanns.  Your  hatecampaign has failed.  It is over.

Eleanor

You made a statement that the dogs were not given enough time in other locations

It was a statement based on no evidence at all

Do you accept that  ? 

[Eleanor]

It might have been a better idea to give the dogs as much time in other places as were given in places pertaining to The McCanns.  But if you can't see that then there is nothing I can do to help you.

You have absolutely  no idea  how much  'time'  the dogs were given in other places   

You have no evidence to base that statement on   ...  do you  ?

Do you?  Did you see all of that running around and pulling back in the car park?  Did you see the same thing happening in the appartment?  That evidence would have been laughed out of Court.

Neve mind, don't answer that.  It doesn't matter.  You just go on having a good time trying to make the life of someone else even more of a misery than it is already is, although I doubt that it will make your miserable life any better.  And it won't get charges brought  against The McCanns.  Your  hatecampaign has failed.  It is over.

Eleanor

You made a statement that the dogs were not given enough time in other locations

It was a statement based on no evidence at all

Do you accept that  ?

Don't be silly.  Do you think you are talking to an idiot?

[icabodcrane]

It might have been a better idea to give the dogs as much time in other places as were given in places pertaining to The McCanns.  But if you can't see that then there is nothing I can do to help you.

You have absolutely  no idea  how much  'time'  the dogs were given in other places   

You have no evidence to base that statement on   ...  do you  ?

Do you?  Did you see all of that running around and pulling back in the car park?  Did you see the same thing happening in the appartment?  That evidence would have been laughed out of Court.

Neve mind, don't answer that.  It doesn't matter.  You just go on having a good time trying to make the life of someone else even more of a misery than it is already is, although I doubt that it will make your miserable life any better.  And it won't get charges brought  against The McCanns.  Your  hatecampaign has failed.  It is over.

Eleanor

You made a statement that the dogs were not given enough time in other locations

It was a statement based on no evidence at all

Do you accept that  ?

Don't be silly.  Do you think you are talking to an idiot?

It's not about you being an idiot   ...  it's about you acknowledging that you made a statement that was not evidence based

...  can you do that  ?

[John]

The video of the dogs working in the underground car park is very revealing.  He even called the dog away from one of the vehicles when it started to show an interest in it and lingered at the actual target vehicle when the dog wanted to go elsewhere.  What the hell was that all about?

As for the testing of the clothes that was the most pathetic thing I have ever seen.  For heavens sake the clothes were all packed together in a box where cross contamination was inevitable.

And to think they actually got paid a substantial fee for that effort!

[C.Edwards]

As for the testing of the clothes that was the most pathetic thing I have ever seen.  For heavens sake the clothes were all packed together in a box where cross contamination was inevitable.

And to think they actually got paid a substantial fee for that effort!

Cross contamination from where? Oh yeah, McCann clothing to McCann clothing. Genius.  Did Eddie alert to all the clothing? No. 

Yeah, I know, handler cueing, right?

[debunker]

As for the testing of the clothes that was the most pathetic thing I have ever seen.  For heavens sake the clothes were all packed together in a box where cross contamination was inevitable.

And to think they actually got paid a substantial fee for that effort!

Cross contamination from where? Oh yeah, McCann clothing to McCann clothing. Genius.  Did Eddie alert to all the clothing? No. 

Yeah, I know, handler cueing, right?

Did Keela alert- that is the important question.

CRoss contamination is a problem with fabrics. One contaminated item could contaminate others. This is a fact, not conjecture. Additionally a previous contact with a missing contaminated item could be serially transferred.

THis is one reason why Mr Grime says that alerts are meaningless unless confirmed by other forensics.

[Carana]

Translation by Albym
These two pages are an official document for the case file regarding the search dog examination of apartments in the Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Lagos on 31 July 2007.

08 Processo 8 pages 2054 to 2069

The seven participants are indicated as being two members of the Policia Judiciaria (PJ); UK NPIA specialist, Mark Harrison, and the UK dog handler, Martin Grime; the two English Springer spaniels - Eddie and Keela; and Mrs Sylvia Batista, a manager of the Ocean club who is noted as the holder of the keys to the apartment and who was present solely to open doors.

All the work performed was recorded on video in image and sound.

The apartments searched were those previously occupied by the McCanns and members of the holiday group. Only apartment 5A was unoccupied at the time of the search. Holidaymaker occupants of the other apartments gave permission for the search to be conducted in their respective apartments.

In apartment 5A:
* between 20h16 (typing error in the report shows 21h16) and 20h30 the "cadaver" dog alerted:
- at 20h20 in the area of the wardrobe of the main bedroom
- at 20h22 in the lounge, specifically behind the sofa next to the window that overlooks the street.

* between 20h47 and 21.20 the "blood" dog alerted:
- at 21h10 in the lounge, specifically on the floor behind the sofa next to the wondow that overlooks the street.

In apartments 5B between 21h24 and 21h27; 5D between 21h29 and 21h34; 5H between 21h35 and 21h38; 4G between 21h42 and 21h45; the "cadaver" dog made no alerts.

Between 21h49 and 22h00, in the garden adjacent to apartment 5A, accessible from by way of the veranada and steps, the cadaver dog alerted in a garden-bed directly below the veranda.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm

[debunker]

So there was only one alert there that indicated cadaver rather than blood. As Keela was not deployed apparently in the other apartments or the flower bed, we can assume no cadaver odor or blood in other apartments and possibly blood or cadaver odor in the flower bed, but this is uncertain.

ONe alert indicative of cadaver odor. Dogs are between 70 and 90 per cent reliable. Mr Grime says that alerts without further forensic evidence, alerts do not confirm cadaver presence.

[C.Edwards]

Did Keela alert- that is the important question.

CRoss contamination is a problem with fabrics. One contaminated item could contaminate others. This is a fact, not conjecture. Additionally a previous contact with a missing contaminated item could be serially transferred.

THis is one reason why Mr Grime says that alerts are meaningless unless confirmed by other forensics.

Why is it important if Keela alerted or not?  The fact that Eddie did indicates cadaver.  I don't see your point about cross contamination.  All of the clothing was the McCanns'  The cross contamination could only have come from their clothing, so unless they wanted to pin the blame on Sean or Amelie it kind of doesn't matter that all the clothing was in contact with other bits of clothing from the house.

I doubt that the PJ decided to lump in the McCann clothing with that of known dead persons, for example.

On that note - Jon Corner (in the panorama documentary) reveals the McCanns knew the pj were coming to do forensic tests. And yet they had clothing in the washing machine.  Not damning, I know, but it's just another one of those things to put in the "not exactly being helpful to the investigation" column.