Gerry and Jez chat while Jane walks by. Seconds later she spots Tannerman!

[sadie]

Are you seriously suggesting that JT's cartographic skills are so poor that the small darkly shaded rectangle on her map represents the whole of apartment 5A?  There is a doctor on TV who repeatedly shows a large space cunningly fitted inside a tiny space, but I found out recently it is complete fiction and not true at all. I suggest the large lightly shaded area is the building, and the small darkly shaded area is the exterior alcove in which the main door of 5A is recessed.

The only problems with that Pegasus are that

1) Jane clearly indicatede in the Cutting Edge video where Gerry and Jez stood chatting .  On the corneer.
2)  The front door recess has the kitchen standing out between it and the pathway up the street, so sorry you aren't right on that one
3)  In any case, the front door access was completely out of sight of Jane when she was walkiing as there was a damned high wall in between.  Also it was one floor up, out of sight.


From her actions on the Cutting Edge Video, Jane very obviously meant that the two men talked on the corner of the alleyway.  You cant get away fromk that.


The main thing in contention is not about the building anyway, but about where Gerry and Jez stood.  Jane clearly indicated that they chatted in the area near he corner of the alleyway to pavement/roadway

You cant get away from that Pegasus.

And Jez confirmed it.

[pegasus]

The only problems with that Pegasus are that

1) Jane clearly indicatede in the Cutting Edge video where Gerry and Jez stood chatting .  On the corneer.
2)  The front door recess has the kitchen standing out between it and the pathway up the street, so sorry you aren't right on that one
3)  In any case, the front door access was completely out of sight of Jane when she was walkiing as there was a damned high wall in between.  Also it was one floor up, out of sight.


From her actions on the Cutting Edge Video, Jane very obviously meant that the two men talked on the corner of the alleyway.  You cant get away fromk that.


The main thing in contention is not about the building anyway, but about where Gerry and Jez stood.  Jane clearly indicated that they chatted in the area near he corner of the alleyway to pavement/roadway

You cant get away from that Pegasus.

And Jez confirmed it.

So we have 3 possible chat locations - at gate, at alleyway, or faraway over the road. Which location would be most audible to the other witness?

[sadie]

So we have 3 possible chat locations - at gate, at alleyway, or faraway over the road. Which location would be  most audible to the other witness?

Most likely Gerry went part way across the road and met up with Jez.  Because of the danger of standing in the road and because they both needed to be on the west side of the road for the routs they were both taking, they quickly moved across to the position clearly shown by Jane in the Cutting Edge Video and also by Jez in his plan.

That is close to the corner of the alleyawy, but Gerry on the very edge of the pavement and Jez in the kerb but most probably protected from traffick by parked cars .  IIRC Stephen Carpenter mentioned the parked cars.


Given the evidence that we have, I truly do not think that they chatted anywhere really close to the gate to 5A.  Although at 6 metres away they were fairly close in vague terminology.  I think that is the best that I can concede Pegasus.

They were by the alleyway corner but it wasn't too far from the gate at about 6 metres.

[Brietta]

This next footage is posted for two reasons. To demonstrate that CM was present at and actively involved in controlling the filming of the cutting edge documentary. Also to demonstrate a very important point in favour of honest witness JT and to taunt and ridicule those posters with their silly french flipflop noises who from their armchairs claimed it was impossible for someone to walk past two people without them noticing. Watch carefully from 55s - two ladies are standing on the west pavement, a man walks northwards on the same pavement as them, passing between them and the wall, and the two ladies do not notice him. http://youtu.be/ZtaVpk01W0s?t=55s

Interesting Pegasus.
Unfortunately the presenter moved to obscure the second woman just at the important time the male passed behind the two women.
However it can be seen that even at that narrow point of the pavement it is perfectly possible to pass with ease people who are standing at the kerb.

[misty]

So we have 3 possible chat locations - at gate, at alleyway, or faraway over the road. Which location would be most audible to the other witness?

If Madeleine could have been in a position to hear the conversation, then GM/JW could have heard her, had she made any noise. Why didn't she cry, or run out the rear patio door calling for her dad?

[pegasus]

If Madeleine could have been in a position to hear the conversation, then GM/JW could have heard her, had she made any noise. Why didn't she cry, or run out the rear patio door calling for her dad?

Good point. In the sofa scene in Sr Amaral's video, the child in the lounge hears the chat outside, but the chatters outside do not hear the child in the lounge. So for his scenario to work, he shows the child making less noise than the chat.
BTW in that sofa scene the chat is shown as being next to the gate (where witness JW states it was). Obviously if the chat was located faraway over the road (where the other chatter states it was) then the whole scene would be rather implausible.

[Brietta]

Good point. In the sofa scene in Sr Amaral's video, the child in the lounge hears the chat outside, but the chatters outside do not hear the child in the lounge. So for his scenario to work, he shows the child making less noise than the chat.
BTW in that sofa scene the chat is shown as being next to the gate (where witness JW states it was). Obviously if the chat was located faraway over the road (where the other chatter states it was) then the whole scene would be rather implausible.

Why would the child have bothered clambering up on the couch if she could hear her father so clearly?

Your version has him standing on the other side of the gate at the foot of the stairs.  Much easier to slide the easily opened door, step out ... et voilà.

[pegasus]

Why would the child have bothered clambering up on the couch if she could hear her father so clearly?

Your version has him standing on the other side of the gate at the foot of the stairs.  Much easier to slide the easily opened door, step out ... et voilà.

I assume the child had been instructed to not go out onto the balcony - there was a sign on the glass door advising parents not to allow children on the balcony unsupervised

[misty]

Good point. In the sofa scene in Sr Amaral's video, the child in the lounge hears the chat outside, but the chatters outside do not hear the child in the lounge. So for his scenario to work, he shows the child making less noise than the chat.
BTW in that sofa scene the chat is shown as being next to the gate (where witness JW states it was). Obviously if the chat was located faraway over the road (where the other chatter states it was) then the whole scene would be rather implausible.

Hypothetically, had the child been frightened by the noise of the wannabe burglar & fled to the lounge, would she not have ventured outside upon hearing her father's voice?
JT also passed directly underneath the window & she apparently heard no noise - she wasn't engaged in conversation.
I think GM was where JT/JW said he was - she was an observer, he was distracted. He wasn't right under the window, probably nearer the entrance to the alley, it's only a matter of a few yards.

[pegasus]

Hypothetically, had the child been frightened by the noise of the wannabe burglar & fled to the lounge, would she not have ventured outside upon hearing her father's voice? ...(snip)

In other burglaries where a child is home alone, the child usually hides within the apartment.
But here we have a variation in which, if the bedroom shutter and window were opened just after the father left, his voice is then audible chatting outside the lounge window. It's possible a child might climb up to look out through the vent gaps in the shutter. Amaral choses it because its a logical way to explain the alert behind the sofa. I am not sure if that is what happened Misty.

[pegasus]

(snip) JT also passed directly underneath the window & she apparently heard no noise(snip)

Certainly JT heard no noise from inside. If the window and shutter were opened as soon as the father left, then it would have happened at the beginning of the chat, but JT passed them near the end of the chat IMO.

[pegasus]

Hypothetically, had the child been frightened by the noise of the wannabe burglar & fled to the lounge, would she not (snip) I think GM was where JT/JW said he was - she was an observer, he was distracted. He wasn't right under the window, probably nearer the entrance to the alley, it's only a matter of a few yards.

Yes its only about 6 yards,and the 2 chatters were probably standing a few yards apart. The amazing thing is that not a single poster here believes the 3rd remembered chat location, which would completely rule out Sr Amaral's sofa scenario.

[misty]

Certainly JT heard no noise from inside. If the window and shutter were opened as soon as the father left, then it would have happened at the beginning of the chat, but JT passed them near the end of the chat IMO.

Do you think the window & shutter were being opened as Crecheman was passing?

[pegasus]

Do you think the window & shutter were being opened as Crecheman was passing?

Good question, because he walked across the junction with his own daughter during the chat. 
Not exactly as he was passing, but could have been close in time.
Or maybe the window and shutter were opened later.

[misty]

Good question, because he walked across the junction with his own daughter during the chat. 
Not exactly as he was passing, but could have been close in time.
Or maybe the window and shutter were opened later.

Had the window/shutters been opened 30 seconds later, JT would have been in the car park by then. I think it highly probable she would have noticed a person tampering with the shutters.
In effect, that rules out Madeleine having time to get out of bed, go to her parents' bedroom, then make her way to the sofa before the conversation outside had ceased (thus ruling out GA's hypothesis).