The tracker dogs

[DevilsAdvocate]

i don't think this is off topic too much, but why did the dogs who are trained to follow live scents, fail to find Madeleines scent on both the route that Jane Tanner says she saw a man walking with a child and the Smiths.

i mean there is no evidence Madeleine was the child seen by either of them.

Hi Redblossom, I've found this on Gerry McCanns blog site

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/RICH.htm

Amongst other uninteresting details it shows the different routes from the front door entrance from apt. 5A of the only routes bundleman could have taken and also the route from 5A to the Smith sighting. In addition it also shows the 2 residential car parks on the street where Gerry and Jez had their chat and where the GNR sniffer dogs followed a scent from 5A to !
Hope this helps.

ETA you will most likely need a google earth sat. image to piece the routes together, sorry !

514

[Redblossom]

Thanks DA but isnt't the point the dogs would have followed the scent of the child? Wherever it went?


Goodnight all.

[ferryman]

Thanks DA but isnt't the point the dogs would have followed the scent of the child? Wherever it went?


Goodnight all.

If they had sam dogs (or equivalent), yes ...

[DevilsAdvocate]

Thanks DA but isnt't the point the dogs would have followed the scent of the child? Wherever it went?


Goodnight all.

Yes it is AND that point is contrary to the direction that Jane's bundleman was travelling ! The residential area is on the street where Gerry and Jez had their chat.
The logical question in this regard would be why bundleman travelled west as per Jane's sighting and then doubled back to where the sniffer dogs search came to an end ?

[sadie]

Well I have a different take on this.

Budlemans lifter must have handled Madeleines blanket to move her and possibly to wipe his sweaty hands.  His sweaty smell would be the over-riding smell on that blanket.  I think the dogs (GNR weren't they?) followed his smell rather than Madeleines

[Redblossom]

Well I have a different take on this.

Budlemans lifter must have handled Madeleines blanket to move her and possibly to wipe his sweaty hands.  His sweaty smell would be the over-riding smell on that blanket.  I think the dogs (GNR weren't they?) followed his smell rather than Madeleines

Thats a handy but ultimately useless theory LOL. So where did his sweaty hands scent end up? In the direction of Jane Tanner or the Smith sightings?Ha Ha you are very funny. C u.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Well I have a different take on this.

Budlemans lifter must have handled Madeleines blanket to move her and possibly to wipe his sweaty hands.  His sweaty smell would be the over-riding smell on that blanket.  I think the dogs (GNR weren't they?) followed his smell rather than Madeleines

And you are certain that he was sweating how ?

[sadie]

Well I have a different take on this.

Budlemans lifter must have handled Madeleines blanket to move her and possibly to wipe his sweaty hands.  His sweaty smell would be the over-riding smell on that blanket.  I think the dogs (GNR weren't they?) followed his smell rather than Madeleines

And you are certain that he was sweating how ?

You are quite right DA,

... but the chances are that he/she was covered in nervous sweat and probably fag smoke

and I bet that smell would override Madeleines scent.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Well I have a different take on this.

Budlemans lifter must have handled Madeleines blanket to move her and possibly to wipe his sweaty hands.  His sweaty smell would be the over-riding smell on that blanket.  I think the dogs (GNR weren't they?) followed his smell rather than Madeleines

And you are certain that he was sweating how ?

You are quite right DA,

... but the chances are that he/she was covered in nervous sweat and probably fag smoke

and I bet that smell would override Madeleines scent.

Sadie with the utmost respect to you your comments are at best supposition and speculatory ! Sweat, the scent of tobacco and now either he OR she !
Can you enlighten me as to how your theory keeps evolving to suit a debate ?
Your original thesis was that bundleMAN (your words, though that may now be bundleWOMAN) took Madeleine westwards away from the street where Jane walked up and Gerry and Jez chatted and now you theorise that the scent the sniffer dogs followed was down that very same street ?
In your version did bundlePERSON still have Madeleine in his arms OR did they leave her somewhere and then casually stroll back down past the tapas reception area to the point where the sniffer dogs search concluded (all the time sweating most probably through fear of being caught) ?

I'm all for logical, mature debate but your theories are becoming fantasist at best !

[DevilsAdvocate]

and I bet that smell would override Madeleines scent.

In addition, the primary objective of a scent dog is to hone in on the scent from a sample of clothing or other item that a missing person was in contact with, the training of scent dogs is to override any other scent and focus on the scent they have been requested to follow. They do not pick up on periphery scents irregardless of how strong those scents may be !
I suggest you study the subject before making unsubstantiated and flippant remarks in any future debate.

[stephen25000]

From Sadie.

In regards to the 'abductor' 

''but the chances are that he/she was covered in nervous sweat and probably cigarette smoke

and I bet that smell would override Madeleines scent.''


You should have a very thorough chat with a forensic scientist and see how long it takes for them to break down in howls of laughter with these statements.

   or    

[ferryman]

I think this, from the GNR report, pretty much confirms my view that the GNR officers didn't have the right type of dogs at their disposal:

On 7th May the same searches were continued, being extended to to the entire northern part of Almadena to the site of Espojeiro and the verges of the EN125 until the Boi valley.

At about 19.. the undersigned officer, accompanied by the Commander, Officer Silva, took part in a meetings with the PJ Directorate, being asked by the PJ about the viability of giving the girl's clothes to the dogs for the dogs to sniff again, and if by means of the odour inhaled, they would be able to mark an identical odour in one of the resort apartments even though its door was closed.

With regard to this task, Officer Silva referred to the fact that the time that had passed would be a crucial condition for the dogs' work in obtaining results and that the entirety of the human odours existing in the apartments and access paths could make the dogs' searches very difficult. However, in spite of not being a normal situation for tracking, it could be attempted, whilst the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible and not directed towards one but to all the apartments in the resort, it being appropriate for the handler not to know which apartment was chosen, so as not the be conditioned.


Note, also, the reference in the quote to the possibility of bias distorting a handler's judgment and precaution against that.

Then think of Grime and those 'Madeleine' stickers on the back of the Renault.

I think the Portuguese dog handlers were much more professional than Grime ...

[stephen25000]

I think this, from the GNR report, pretty much confirms my view that the GNR officers didn't have the right type of dogs at their disposal:

On 7th May the same searches were continued, being extended to to the entire northern part of Almadena to the site of Espojeiro and the verges of the EN125 until the Boi valley.

At about 19.. the undersigned officer, accompanied by the Commander, Officer Silva, took part in a meetings with the PJ Directorate, being asked by the PJ about the viability of giving the girl's clothes to the dogs for the dogs to sniff again, and if by means of the odour inhaled, they would be able to mark an identical odour in one of the resort apartments even though its door was closed.

With regard to this task, Officer Silva referred to the fact that the time that had passed would be a crucial condition for the dogs' work in obtaining results and that the entirety of the human odours existing in the apartments and access paths could make the dogs' searches very difficult. However, in spite of not being a normal situation for tracking, it could be attempted, whilst the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible and not directed towards one but to all the apartments in the resort, it being appropriate for the handler not to know which apartment was chosen, so as not the be conditioned.


Note, also, the reference in the quote to the possibility of bias distorting a handler's judgment and precaution against that.

Then think of Grime and those 'Madeleine' stickers on the back of the Renault.

I think the Portuguese dog handlers were much more professional than Grime ...

Now where's an honestbroker, when you don't need one 

[C.Edwards]

Note, also, the reference in the quote to the possibility of bias distorting a handler's judgment and precaution against that.

Then think of Grime and those 'Madeleine' stickers on the back of the Renault.

I think the Portuguese dog handlers were much more professional than Grime ...

Has it ever been demonstrably proven that Grime would know that the car with stickers belonged to the McCanns?  Weren't there lots of cars driving around at the time with posters/stickers on?  How do we KNOW that Grime knew/assumed that the car in the car park was the McCann hired one? Has he discussed this on paper or in an interview?  Even if he did know, has it been established that he used handler cueing to make the dogs alert, as would have to be the case if your point was to be valid?

We've done this to death on Amazon before hb.  Handlers direct dogs to search in particular areas.  If they had all day, they could let the dog just keep wandering around unchecked, but the dog would get tired/bored and need a break.  To maximise the efficiency of the searches, dog handlers (explosive detector dogs too) will direct the dog to search a footwell or door pocket or boot space as it's pointless getting them to look under the wheelarch, in the engine compartment, on the roof, etc. and it just saves time to get them to focus.  The dogs don't know the difference, the handlers do.

Even if the dog is led repeatedly to a "vehicle of interest" it won't just "bark to please the handler", despite the pro myths to the contrary.  The dog gets rewarded regardless of whether they alert or not as a negative alert can be just as important as a positive one.  The dog does not know the difference.  It is trained to react when it detects what it's trained for and that's the end of the matter.

[Angelo222]

Certainly he knew which car was used by the suspects.  Why do you think he stood there calling Eddie back when it wasn't that interested whereas he called him away from other vehicles.  Poor show without a doubt.