If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?

[Eleanor]

Not according to Amaral, apparently, only Eddie. But he might have gotten that wrong too.

- Outside, Eddie gives two more alerts of cadaver smell, on the varanda of the couple's bedroom and also in a garden situation directly below it. Here, the bark is weaker, like a "could be", with some doubt, like a human shrugging their shoulders.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html

Oh, good God.  Dogs can do a "Maybe" now, can they?

[Benice]

Until we know exactly what happened that night we have no idea whether the McCanns had motive. If the parents or their friends are not telling the truth about the timeline that night there is certainly means and opportunity. There is no witness, not even their friends who passed by the very window several times, who saw that window or the shutters open before Ate's alarm so feasibly it could have been Kate who opened them.

Don't know what you mean about 4 eye witnesses so could you please explain ?

None of their friends passed by the 'very' window.  They didn't walk anywhere near the window.  Have you not seen the photographs of the front of the apartment block showing the route people took to return to their apartments across the car park?

The 4 eye witnesses are Jane Tanner and the 3 Smiths.

If you can think of a credible motive and how - without any knowledge of the area and no car they carried out this deed then I would be very interested to hear it.

[Mrs. B]

Not really IMO.   If Grimes had made the dogs search other cars/places for as long as he made them search McCann related stuff - then there may well have been alerts elsewhere.

Take the cars for instance.  The longest time spent on any of the other cars was under 30 seconds.  Eddie was called back to the McCanns car for a full 2 minutes before he alerted. 

If Grime had only allowed Eddie 30 seconds for searching the McCann car, in line with the others, - there would have been no alert at the Renault.

And if Grime had made Eddie return to  all of the other cars for a full 2 minutes - he may well have alerted to one or more of them.

It was all down to time IMO. as I don't believe that all the other cars, the gym, streets and everywhere else Eddie searched could have possibly been totally sterile.

Yes, the whole dog business rather falls down on that as well, both dogs were supposedly trained to alert to human blood. Anybody noticed the absolute lack traces of blood, in a holiday resort, APART from in apt 5A?

[ferryman]

Oh, good God.  Dogs can do a "Maybe" now, can they?

Grime's rogatory:

Based upon the dogs' behaviour, is it possible to distinguish between a strong signal and a weak signal'.



The dogs' passive CSI alert provides an indication as per their training and does not vary. They only give an alert when they are 'positive' that the target of the odour is present and immediately accessible. If they had any doubts they would not give an alert. EVRD gives an alert by means of a vocal bark. The variations in the vocal alert can be explained by many reasons such as 'thirst' or 'lack of air due to effort'. Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed. The signals of an alert are only just that. Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc.



I've spotted something else interesting.

But I'll return to that

[ferryman]

Yes, the whole dog business rather falls down on that as well, both dogs were supposedly trained to alert to human blood. Anybody noticed the absolute lack traces of blood, in a holiday resort, APART from in apt 5A?

Yes, it is quite extraordinary that the only places anyone bled are The McCanns' car and the McCanns' apartment, nowhere else ...

[AnneGuedes]

Not really IMO.   If Grimes had made the dogs search other cars/places for as long as he made them search McCann related stuff - then there may well have been alerts elsewhere.

Take the cars for instance.  The longest time spent on any of the other cars was under 30 seconds.  Eddie was called back to the McCanns car for a full 2 minutes before he alerted. 

If Grime had only allowed Eddie 30 seconds for searching the McCann car, in line with the others, - there would have been no alert at the Renault.

And if Grime had made Eddie return to  all of the other cars for a full 2 minutes - he may well have alerted to one or more of them.

It was all down to time IMO. as I don't believe that all the other cars, the gym, streets and everywhere else Eddie searched could have possibly been totally sterile.

I suggest you do your citizen duty, Benice, and send your remarks to the Yorkshire Police, with copy to the NPIA ? Unfortunately Madeleine's case isn't unique.

[Mrs. B]

Yes, isn't it just? And strangely enough, nobody bothered to ask Mr. Grime about this extraordinary circumstance.

[Mrs. B]

I suggest you do your citizen duty, Benice, and send your remarks to the Yorkshire Police, with copy to the NPIA ? Unfortunately Madeleine's case isn't unique.

No need Anne, NPIA are more than aware of the short comings of the dogs, even Eddie gets a mention.

http://news.sky.com/story/844071/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work

[DCI]

Another thread derailed, with the dogs. Waste of time!

[Mrs. B]

Yes, back on track. So we have established that an abductor had enough time to enter apartment & pick up Madeleine & walk out again. He could also have hid in the apartment, behind door or in closet, while Gerry McCann was in the apartment. What else?

[Benice]

I know Amaral doesn't seem to have a good track record in basic police work - but surely to goodness that he and the rest of the PJ would have least worked out after talking to all the witnesses in the area - Tapas , staff , other guests where their no one suspect was at the time of the discovery .

The argument that perhaps Gerry could have been 10 minutes away at 9.50 with a dead body in his arms ( to suit the Smith sighting ) but then back in place at around 10ish to play his " role "  I mean even the most dense witness might have worked out that a breathless Gerry rushing back from somewhere

Also can anyone really accept  that in that 5 minute window Gerry managed to dispose of a body that managed to evade a mass of searching by dozens of police , sniffer dogs , etc etc - come on

Also - if that was Gerry the Smiths saw - then he was still on his way to wherever he was going and had not even reached his destination at that point.    And then -  after having arrived wherever he was going to  (the beach?) - he then had to hide/bury/ the body. (how and what with is another question)    Then having done that he had to go all the way back to the Apartment - change his clothes and join the others.  It's just not physically possible for him to have done all that in the timescale.     

 

[Eleanor]

This has always been my argument.  Logistics.  Not possible for The McCanns to kill and hide the body of their daughter.  But possible for an abductor to have taken Madeleine.

[icabodcrane]

Yes, back on track. So we have established that an abductor had enough time to enter apartment & pick up Madeleine & walk out again. He could also have hid in the apartment, behind door or in closet, while Gerry McCann was in the apartment. What else?

Have we ?

Could we recap these  'established'  facts ?

What was the period of time the abductor had to carry out the crime established to have been ?

What elements necessary to commit  the crime were established  ?  What was the abductor's point of entry, and how long would that have taken ...  were the three children likely to have drugged,  and, if so,  how long would that have  taken ...   were the window and shutters opened for a specific reason, and how much time was allowed for the abductor to have done that   ...  what was the abductor's point of exit, and long would it take him to get to the point in the road where Jane Tanner says she saw him  ?

I don't think very much has been  'established'  at all, thus far

[Benice]

If there was collusion, Gerry must have been furious with Kate for raising the "alarm" before Gerry had even got down to the beach.And where is the evidence that Kate and Gerry were ever, at any point, simultaneously absent from the restaurant between the point of their (joint) arrival and Kate's alert?

If non-existent (it is!), then that puts paid to all themccannsdunit theories.

Well, OK, not quite all. 

There are some so far-fetched even Amaral doesn't entertain them.

But let's not go there ...

Which brings us back to the question - if this was all planned - then why would anyone with half a brain cell choose such a complicated convoluted plan, involving the co-operation of 7 other people  - when all the McCanns had to do was dispose of the body in the dead of night - return to 5A - go to bed, call the police the next morning and say they got up to find the front door wide open and Madeleine missing.   No need to involve anyone else whatsoever in that simple plan.







 

[Mrs. B]

Enter the apartment through which ever point of entry you prefer, pick up sleeping child, exit the apartment - 45 secs - 1 minute. Ample time.

Enter apartment through whatever entry point of choice, disturbed by Gerry entering the apartment - abductor hiding in either closet or behind door, wait until Gerry leaves, exist apartment. Even more time available.

What else?