So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?

[John]

This is something Ocean Club would like to keep secret for obvious reasons.  We can't say for definite that a key was used but it is a distinct possibility.

We do know however that staff keys for the rental apartments were kept in a safe in the garage and that most of the staff had access to them routinely.

We also know that there had been burglaries and attempted burglaries at apartments at Ocean Club Garden in which the perpetrators appear to have had access using a key.

[Albertini]

So you think 'professional' people don't have the same feelings or reactions as non-professional people?   Gerry was a distraught father at the time not a policeman  -  and the expectation by some that he should have behaved like one is what beggars belief imo , especially as the actual policemen who were supposed to act like policemen failed miserably to do so when they arrived.

If a Firefighter turned up to a fire and found his own daughter had died in it  would you expect him to be less traumatised  than someone who wasn't a firefighter -  because he was used to it.     Unbelievable!

As a trained doctor Gerry (and Kate) would be taught to function under stress and no doubt possess an analytical mind which functions well under pressure. Without that as doctors you will get nowhere and clearly Gerry has.

That's the point about being a professional.

You arrive back at your apartment, your child has gone and the shutters are up. I cannot, for the life of me, see a valid reason why Gerry needed to touch the shutters until the police arrived.

With the advent of programs like CSI and all the crime docs on TV, everyone knows the drill with forensics etc and crime scenes.

The point is that the forensic opportunities were lost specifically by Gerry's actions on those shutters.

Your analogy regarding the fireman is not valid unless you believe Madeleine was DEAD in the apartment when Gerry returned.

Have you got something to tell us Benice!! 

[Albertini]

This is something Ocean Club would like to keep secret for obvious reasons.  We can't say for definite that a key was used but it is a distinct possibility.

We do know however is that the keys for the rental apartments were kept in a safe in the garage and that most of the staff had access to them routinely.

We also know that there had been burglaries and attempted burglaries at apartments at Ocean Club Garden in which the perpetrators appear to have had access using a key.

Well i would like to believe that given the huge media interest in the case we would have heard something from someone had their key been lost, missing or stolen.

Were the perpetrators of the burglaries every caught or identified?

Was there anything taken from the McCann's apartment? If it was a burglary gone wrong you would imagine that some items would have been nabbed before they got to Madeleine?

I have to say there is a big step up from burglary to child abduction.

[John]

I don't believe Gerry could have reached the raised shutter from the outside so he could only have examined it AFTER he lowered it.

[Chinagirl]

But were any reported missing?

Did the police investigate this possibility?  If they didn't, it was a huge omission.

We don't know, but it is a v ery reasonable speculation that a key was acquired and thus the front door used to gain entry and exit.

[John]

Well i would like to believe that given the huge media interest in the case we would have heard something from someone had their key been lost, missing or stolen.

Were the perpetrators of the burglaries every caught or identified?

Was there anything taken from the McCann's apartment? If it was a burglary gone wrong you would imagine that some items would have been nabbed before they got to Madeleine?

I have to say there is a big step up from burglary to child abduction.

I don't think we even know if Mrs Fenn's intruder was ever caught...I doubt it.

The evidence is that the McCanns apartment was being watched.  It would appear to be a case of child abduction planned and executed with precision.

[icabodcrane]

I don't think we even know if Mrs Fenn's intruder was ever caught...I doubt it.

The evidence is that the McCanns apartment was being watched.  It would appear to be a case of child abduction planned and executed with precision.

What  'evidence'  is there that the McCann's apartment was being watched  ? 

[Benice]

As a trained doctor Gerry (and Kate) would be taught to function under stress and no doubt possess an analytical mind which functions well under pressure. Without that as doctors you will get nowhere and clearly Gerry has.

That's the point about being a professional.

You arrive back at your apartment, your child has gone and the shutters are up. I cannot, for the life of me, see a valid reason why Gerry needed to touch the shutters until the police arrived.

With the advent of programs like CSI and all the crime docs on TV, everyone knows the drill with forensics etc and crime scenes.

The point is that the forensic opportunities were lost specifically by Gerry's actions on those shutters.

Your analogy regarding the fireman is not valid unless you believe Madeleine was DEAD in the apartment when Gerry returned.

Have you got something to tell us Benice!! 

Once again you are talking with hindsight.  We know Madeleine was not going to be found, but in those first few moments they didn't know that.   Of course they would search the whole place inside and out.   Good grief - even one of the policemen who first turned up searched the whole apartment!    If you want to criticise anyone - for the loss of forensics  -  then maybe you should criticise him instead of the panic stricken parents. 

The idea that professional people do not have the same feelings, emotions and reactions as other people when it comes to the wellbeing of their own children is quite ridiculous IMO.

It would appear you have missed the point of my analogy re Firefighters.

 

[stephen25000]

Well i would like to believe that given the huge media interest in the case we would have heard something from someone had their key been lost, missing or stolen.

Were the perpetrators of the burglaries every caught or identified?

Was there anything taken from the McCann's apartment? If it was a burglary gone wrong you would imagine that some items would have been nabbed before they got to Madeleine?

I have to say there is a big step up from burglary to child abduction.

There is the classic quote from GM.

'..NOTHING WAS TAKEN OF ANY VALUE..'

[Carana]

What  'evidence'  is there that the McCann's apartment was being watched  ?

Ask Luz...

 Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor
« Reply #2 on: Today at 01:40:41 AM »

    Quote

On May, 3 2007 nobody took a child trough a window from the apartment 5A before 22:00 h. That I know a 100%. There are witnesses and if the case ever goes to court they will appear.

[stephen25000]

I don't think we even know if Mrs Fenn's intruder was ever caught...I doubt it.

The evidence is that the McCanns apartment was being watched.  It would appear to be a case of child abduction planned and executed with precision.

Precisely and quantitatively, what evidence is there that the Mccanns apartment was being watched ?

Secondly, I wonder how many other girls of Madeleine's age where in PDL at the time.

Why also would an abductor take Madeleine when her younger sister was there, and  far easier to carry and certainly have fewer memories of family life if taken ?

[icabodcrane]

Ask Luz...

 Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor
« Reply #2 on: Today at 01:40:41 AM »

    Quote

On May, 3 2007 nobody took a child trough a window from the apartment 5A before 22:00 h. That I know a 100%. There are witnesses and if the case ever goes to court they will appear.

I was asking John because he stated that there was  'evidence'  that the McCann's apartment was being watched

Do you know what the evidence is Carana  ?

[Albertini]

But were any reported missing?

Did the police investigate this possibility?  If they didn't, it was a huge omission.

We don't know, but it is a v ery reasonable speculation that a key was acquired and thus the front door used to gain entry and exit.

I don't know if the police did, they certainly should have done in the early days, that is for sure.

(See! Whilst not a believer in the abduction theory i have no issue in actually stating what the police did or didn't do and whether it was right or wrong!)

I disagree though regarding it being "a very reasonable speculation" as no one has ever come forward to say there key was stolen, lost, borrowed or missing.

No locksmith has ever come forward to say he cut a key that matched that one.

Certainly given the media exposure of the case you would think had someone any knowledge of their key going missing or of someone cutting a key like that then they would have come forward in the intervening years.

So that means you are relying on an inside job from someone with access to the key and an inside job on a locksmith.

We also have to look at the probability of someone having the very key to the very apartment that a child was staying and was left unattended. That is a huge coincidence!

Why not any of the other apartments where the children weren't being left? Another huge coincidence!

And then it's a what point do you accept huge coincidences become at best, unlikely, or at worst, impossible?

[Benice]

There is the classic quote from GM.

'..NOTHING WAS TAKEN OF ANY VALUE..'

Surely you mean  ..........

''This is the classic quote which we sceptics like to quote out of context so that we can pretend it has a completely different meaning to the correct one''.   

[stephen25000]

Surely you mean  ..........

''This is the classic quote which we sceptics like to quote out of context so that we can pretend it has a completely different meaning to the correct one''.

Or it was a Freudian slip by the Mccanns, one of many.

and there's there's another by Mitchell.....

"I believe Kate and Gerry are not responsible for Madeleine's death"