Anything and everything

[Aiofe]

I haven't mentioned the law at any stage but seeing as you've introduced the subject it is actually unlawful under British - The law doesn’t say an age when you can leave a child on their own, but it’s an offence to leave a child alone if it places them at risk.

https://www.gov.uk/law-on-leaving-your-child-home-alone

The law in England is not based on the concept of Abandonment, but being placed at risk- two separate concepts. There is no law on abandonment in England, only exposing a child to risk. In Portugal it is illegal to abandon a child even if there is no risk.

[Anna]

This has come up time and time again..what is the definition of "at risk" . it is an extremely grey area

libel case Day 6 witness 3 “The little girl died in the apartment. Everything is in the book, which is faithful to the investigation
until September: it reflects the understanding of the Portuguese and the English police and of the
Public Ministry. For all of us, until then, the concealment of the cadaver, the simulation of
abduction and the exposure or abandonment were proved.”

                                  So when was abandonment unproven ? because I cannot see it anywhere. Please direct me.
                                    By the way I have not read his book or Kates because I prefer a clear head

[Mr Gray]

libel case Day 6 witness 3 “The little girl died in the apartment. Everything is in the book, which is faithful to the investigation
until September: it reflects the understanding of the Portuguese and the English police and of the
Public Ministry. For all of us, until then, the concealment of the cadaver, the simulation of
abduction and the exposure or abandonment were proved.”

                                  So when was abandonment unproven ? because I cannot see it anywhere. Please direct me.
                                    By the way I have not read his book or Kates because I prefer a clear head

 Could you tell us where this quote comes from as it seems to be wrong. The archiving report ruled out negligence

[Mr Gray]

libel case Day 6 witness 3 “The little girl died in the apartment. Everything is in the book, which is faithful to the investigation
until September: it reflects the understanding of the Portuguese and the English police and of the
Public Ministry. For all of us, until then, the concealment of the cadaver, the simulation of
abduction and the exposure or abandonment were proved.”

                                  So when was abandonment unproven ? because I cannot see it anywhere. Please direct me.
                                    By the way I have not read his book or Kates because I prefer a clear head

 From the wording it is a quote by amaral...he sates..."for all of us"  etc...he is sating opinion not fact

[Aiofe]

Under English law abandonment is encapsulated within the term Neglect !

Abandonment is the mere leaving of a child with no intention to return to it.

Neglect means leaving a child, even with the intention of returning, but placing it in a situation of severe risk.

Abandonment alone would be sufficient to start Care Proceedings, but would not be a criminal offence in the UK.

There are two separate concepts here- one of the withdrawal permanently from guardianship of the child, and one of placing a child at risk. They are dealt with differently in different administrations.

ALthough abandonment is a criminal offence in Portugal, in many US states they have safe harbor laws where children and infants may be legally abandoned with no legal consequences.

I Portugal Neglect is an administrative matter, in the UK it is a criminal one. There is no criminal law against neglect in Portugal.

[Aiofe]

You were the one who brought the information to the thread ergo it is your responsibility under forum rules to supply a citation for same.

I provided some examples that people can believe or not. I may search them out but they all show as non-criminal neglect.

A review of the current state of the law and proposals to change it can be found here, and this demonstrates why so few criminal cases result currently:

http://www.actionforchildren.org.uk/media/5178586/criminal_law_and_child_neglect.pdf

[Anna]

From the wording it is a quote by amaral...he sates..."for all of us"  etc...he is sating opinion not fact

Thank you Dave

[Wonderfulspam]

it reflects the understanding of the Portuguese and the English police

Where is the evidence for the part underlined?

McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel hearing witness Ricardo Paiva.

SO – What about the possibility that the child had died?

RP says that after a certain time it is normal to start thinking of death. He says that the investigation took various avenues, one of them being the death of the child. He says their British colleagues even contemplated the possible concealment of a cadaver.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2591.0

[Aiofe]

Child left in cycle seat outside pub at a festival

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1317772/Doctor-Suzanne-Wills-left-son-outside-bar-charged-child-neglect.html

Case dropped.

[Aiofe]

One down, six to go !

Abandoned by mother to care of mentally ill and previously child abusing father without parental rights.

Case not proceeded with even thought the three month old suffered severe injuries.

http://www.iwradio.co.uk/articles/2013-11-05-serious-case-reviews-echo-ofsted-concerns-of-inadequate-childrens-services

[AnneGuedes]

There is no criminal law against neglect in Portugal.

This is not true. Neglect is a complex notion. You can't by-pass nuances.

[Aiofe]

That case wasn't mentioned in the post I quoted you on and asked for citations for the seven cases you quoted.
One down, six to go !

All were fully discussed and documented on the 3 Arguidos in 2009. It is quite difficult to find press reports for abandoned cases. My contention is that it is very rare for neglect charges to be successful in the UK without severe harm coming to the child. Perhaps if you believe that such cases are common, you should produce the big news stories that detail criminal sanctions on carers for less than death or serious physical harm.

Having worked in Child protection (over a decade ago) I know how rare neglect cases are and that many fold before reaching court, even after charging.

[Aiofe]

This is not true. Neglect is a complex notion. You can't by-pass nuances.

Perhaps you would cite the part of the Portuguese Criminal Code that deals with neglect.

[Mr Gray]

We'll agree to disagree davel, Aiofe is a big boy / girl who is well aware of forum rules. So far only one citation has been proffered to support the 'facts' !

Well it seems you only expect Aiofe to abide by forum rules but not others..it doesn't really matter.
Aiofe has given us an insight into the real facts on the law relating to neglect via a link to the govt document..many posters talk about neglect...do you know what the legal definition is

[Aiofe]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/celtic-star-charlie-mulgrew-child-1093183

CELTIC star Charlie Mulgrew and his wife will not face trial for leaving their two-year-old son alone in a car in sub-zero temperatures.

Bra tycoon Michelle Mone called police after she spotted little Josh in a Costco discount warehouse car park in December.

The cops charged Mulgrew, 24, and wife Alana, 23, with neglect after the Christmas shopping trip.

But prosecutors have now dropped the case after a plea from top QC Paul McBride, who acted on the couple's behalf.