Author Topic: Where does evidence end and speculation take over?  (Read 21268 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Where does evidence end and speculation take over?
« Reply #90 on: January 10, 2014, 06:30:05 PM »
So why ask for theories then?

Where is the evidence of a stranger entering 5A? Fingerprints? Hair? DNA? Broken shutters/windows/doors? Anything?

 there may well have been dna on the bedclothes..the pj didn't check...figerprints...gloves ...hair... shaven head...hat.....it seem the door lock wasn't to secure

Lyall

  • Guest
Re: Where does evidence end and speculation take over?
« Reply #91 on: January 10, 2014, 06:30:52 PM »
I think its appalling to suggest the McCanns would do such a thing...particularly as spam has no evidence to support his claim...in fact his claim that Maddie died (I don't think he used the word "may") before may 3rd has been shown to be false several times.

The first week of the case (and up to the point when the finger was pointed at RM and the case stopped being discussed like other cases) TV did mention possibilities like this, though naturally nobody suggested Madeleine's parents may have been responsible. But bins were mentioned.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Where does evidence end and speculation take over?
« Reply #92 on: January 10, 2014, 06:31:43 PM »
there may well have been dna on the bedclothes..the pj didn't check...figerprints...gloves ...hair... shaven head...hat.....it seem the door lock wasn't to secure

 there may well have been dna on the bedclothes..

Pure speculation.
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Offline jassi

Re: Where does evidence end and speculation take over?
« Reply #93 on: January 10, 2014, 06:32:41 PM »
there may well have been dna on the bedclothes..the pj didn't check...figerprints...gloves ...hair... shaven head...hat.....it seem the door lock wasn't to secure

None found though, which is quite important when trying to implicate someone.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Where does evidence end and speculation take over?
« Reply #94 on: January 10, 2014, 06:32:59 PM »


Quote out of  context and way before the files were released.

I'm amazed the board moderators tolerate such blatant deception.

You make it sound like some massive deception, its not....it wasnt "way before" the files were released, just a few weeks, around 7 July or so IIRC when the Mccanns were challenged by LP on having the right to all their investigation files....and it was also after the Public Prosecutors summary and their arguido status lifted! 30 June IIRC
And I suppose you expect the boards moderators to know all these little details do you?
You dont have to exagerate and dramatise to make your points you know.

Lyall

  • Guest
Re: Where does evidence end and speculation take over?
« Reply #95 on: January 10, 2014, 06:35:32 PM »
Martin Brunt also mentioned bins in his programme Christmas Eve 2007.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Where does evidence end and speculation take over?
« Reply #96 on: January 10, 2014, 06:36:47 PM »
Martin Brunt also mentioned bins in his programme Christmas Eve 2007.

Kate McCann Madeleine.

"Friday 4 May. Our first day without Madeleine. As soon as it was light Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we’d never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here. The most striking and horrific thing about all this was that we were completely alone. Nobody else, it seemed, was out looking for Madeleine. Just us, her parents."

(End Quote)


So less than 12 hours since Madeleine was apparently seen being carried away by Bundleman, Kate believed her daughter could possibly be found inside a big dumpster type bin,

Infact she considers it so likely that she pleads with God for her not to be in there.

From this I deduced that Kate knew it was where she went.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 06:57:34 PM by Wonderfulspam »
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Where does evidence end and speculation take over?
« Reply #97 on: January 10, 2014, 06:45:54 PM »
None found though, which is quite important when trying to implicate someone.

 from what I have read the pj didnt do a thorough dna sweep of the bed clothes...just looked at obvious marks. Instead of being kept the sheets were sent to the laundry

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Where does evidence end and speculation take over?
« Reply #98 on: January 10, 2014, 06:46:10 PM »
Since the 'Maddie in the bin' theory I purported caused so much outrage for it's content & not providing supporting evidence, I feel it incumbant upon me to portray the sources of my theory,


1) Madeleine's possible death before leaving the apartment,

I form the basis of this theory from the McCanns media interviews as follows,

GerryMcCann:  Aug 10, 2007  Sky News Interview.

“everything we have done, during the last hundred days, is focussed on, errr... the belief that Madeleine was alive when she was abducted”


So Gerry has  doubt as to her being alive before leaving the apartment, something which surely could only come from some sort of prior knowledge since it is seriously unlikely somone would murder her and leave with her body.


Radio Five Live Breakfast Interview  May 1st  2008

'what evidence does anyone have to suggest that Madeleine is dead?' because we know of no evidence to suggest otherwise and we would like a public acknowledgement of that."


Gerry, it would appear, knows of no evidence to suggest Madeleine is anything other than dead.


Kate McCann: Sara Antunes de Oliveira, SIC, 9 March, 2010

"We're not going to sit here and lie and be totally naïve and say she's one hundred per cent alive."


A few years later and Kate is even more certain in saying they would be lying if they said she was alive.

Again, something that could only come from prior knowledge.


2) Smithman.

I then utilised the Smiths sighting of an inert child being carried by a man with a 60-80% resemblence to Mr McCann. From this I propose during this hypothesis that the man seen was actually Gerry McCann carrying his deceased child.


3) Method of diposal.

And finally the bin, in Kates book she states:

"Friday 4 May. Our first day without Madeleine. As soon as it was light Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we’d never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here. The most striking and horrific thing about all this was that we were completely alone. Nobody else, it seemed, was out looking for Madeleine. Just us, her parents."


So less than 12 hours since Madeleine was apparently seen being carried away by Bundleman, Kate believed her daughter could possibly be found inside a big dumpster type bin,

Infact she considers it so likely that she pleads with God for her not to be in there.

From this I deduced that Kate knew it was where she went.

"Maddie in the bin" theory?

The first person to propose that was Dr Amaral.

In his book, he relates that he is called away from a meeting in the early hours by his distraught wife, who has found the body of their pet dog with a head injury.  She pleads with him to quit the investigation, but he calms and reassures her.

Then he attempts to dispose of the corpse of the dog by digging a hole to bury it, but finds the ground hard to dig.  He realises how much 'easier' it would be to hide, rather than bury, the dog!

Hey presto!

Amaral's theory of what Gerry did with the body of Madeleine was formed.

Have you ever wondered where it came from?

The proper detective work of Mark Harrison:

The report considers the viability of burial on the beach and the likely
movement of a body if it entered the sea. It also considers the likely incident
of such a disposal choice and any local impact factors that make this a more
or less likely event with the aim to inform decisions on any searches.

Praia Da Luz Beach.
In simple terms the beach is in a natural inlet and bounded by cliffs.
The winds are generally from the west and create low energy waves of less
than 2m. This is significant regarding any body disposal scenario from the
shore as the wave energy is not sufficient to "take a body" out to sea. Instead
a body would most likely trave1 eastwards in a re circulating motion along the
shoreline until it was trapped by the rock outcrop to the east of the beach or
consumed by marine life. ti the entry point was the rock outcrop itself to the
east of the beach then the body would most likely continue in a re circulating
motion along the shoreline until it again encountered a bamer to its passage,
the most eastward of this would be 5km away at Ponta Da Piedade near
Lagos.


Sub Surface Burial on P D Luz Beach

For Body Disposal Purposes The Beach Can Be Separated And
Discussed Into 6 Areas.

Figure 2.The boulders in the rock falls are too large
to man handle. Vegetative growth suggests rock
falls have been in situ for some time. The low energy
wave action would not move any of the boulders. It
is possible a small child could be secreted amongst
the rocks in natural voids.

Figure 3.The cliff edge at the base of the beach is at
an angle that inhibits soil removal. The shale re fills
any hole dug and is unsuitable to achieve a burial.

Figure4.At the base of the cliff are wave cuts where
the bedrock has been eroded by wave action. Here
sand can be easily dug but after a few centimetres
the digger reaches the bed rock, preventing a
successful burial.

Figure 5.The beach cusps or berms are mounds of
sand made by wind action. These cusps form at the
limit of the tides reach and would only be recovered
in storm conditions. Digging on the cusps is easy but to achieve as
more than a few centimetres depth is very difficult to
the fine sand granules refill the hole


Figure 6.The dark sand in this image shows the
intertidal area. Here digging and burial could
possibly be achieved although it would be through a
mixture of grave1 and water. However any burial
would be quickly exposed by wave action and
ultimately taken into the sea.


To be clear, Harrison himself never formed any firm opinion of his own about what might have happened to Madeleine, and Amaral's outright lie that he did is (in my opinion) the most serious lie of all the lies in Amaral's book.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Where does evidence end and speculation take over?
« Reply #99 on: January 10, 2014, 06:53:34 PM »
there may well have been dna on the bedclothes..the pj didn't check...figerprints...gloves ...hair... shaven head...hat.....it seem the door lock wasn't to secure

...and by the time they did everything had been scrupulously cleaned.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Lyall

  • Guest
Re: Where does evidence end and speculation take over?
« Reply #100 on: January 10, 2014, 06:53:40 PM »
Kate McCann Madeleine.

"Friday 4 May. Our first day without Madeleine. As soon as it was light Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we’d never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here. The most striking and horrific thing about all this was that we were completely alone. Nobody else, it seemed, was out looking for Madeleine. Just us, her parents."


So less than 12 hours since Madeleine was apparently seen being carried away by Bundleman, Kate believed her daughter could possibly be found inside a big dumpster type bin,

Infact she considers it so likely that she pleads with God for her not to be in there.

From this I deduced that Kate knew it was where she went.

Who said "From this I deduced that Kate knew it was where she went." WS? Is that you saying that?

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Where does evidence end and speculation take over?
« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2014, 06:55:38 PM »
Who said "From this I deduced that Kate knew it was where she went." WS? Is that you saying that?

Yes that's my opinion.

Christian Brueckner Fan Club

Offline jassi

Re: Where does evidence end and speculation take over?
« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2014, 06:56:04 PM »
from what I have read the pj didnt do a thorough dna sweep of the bed clothes...just looked at obvious marks. Instead of being kept the sheets were sent to the laundry

Doesn't really matter what they did or didn't do, none was found, therefore nothing to use in a detection.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Lyall

  • Guest
Re: Where does evidence end and speculation take over?
« Reply #103 on: January 10, 2014, 06:56:09 PM »
"Maddie in the bin" theory?

The first person to propose that was Dr Amaral.
Definitely not true. It was discussed the first week, precisely because she disappeared without any trace.

With one exception evidence-wise we know no more know than we did then.

Offline jassi

Re: Where does evidence end and speculation take over?
« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2014, 06:57:15 PM »
Definitely not true. It was discussed the first week, precisely because she disappeared without any trace.

With one exception evidence-wise we know no more know than we did then.

How depressing.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future