The dogs.....

[Eleanor]

In a nutshell....it always comes back to the dogs.

Those who believe in the dogs work will always realise that cadaver scent takes a minimum length of time before it's detected and because no cross contamination can be clearly highlighted (it's just a what if), such as in the Shannon Matthews case, it brings the case back to the impossibility of the McCann's timelines.

Those who do not believe the dogs work to be genuine will always look for ways to discredit their work or explain away reasons for the dogs behaviour that do not involve the McCann's.

Neither belief at this moment in time can produce any concrete evidence to hold up each view so it's a constant stalemate. You either believe in the dogs or you don't.

Some of us believe that the dogs are a useful tool if trained and used correctly.  But never evidence unto themselves.
Eddie was trained to detect Blood long before he was trained to Detect Cadaver Odour.  This was something that he could not unlearn.

[slartibartfast]

Some of us believe that the dogs are a useful tool if trained and used correctly.  But never evidence unto themselves.
Eddie was trained to detect Blood long before he was trained to Detect Cadaver Odour.  This was something that he could not unlearn.

But they didn't find any blood in one location he alerted?

[Mr Gray]

But they didn't find any blood in one location he alerted?

So what does grime say...he is the expert

he says eddie may be alerting to cadaverine contaminant..he doesn't say he is

[Benice]

In a nutshell....it always comes back to the dogs.

Those who believe in the dogs work will always realise that cadaver scent takes a minimum length of time before it's detected and because no cross contamination can be clearly highlighted (it's just a what if), such as in the Shannon Matthews case, it brings the case back to the impossibility of the McCann's timelines.

Those who do not believe the dogs work to be genuine will always look for ways to discredit their work or explain away reasons for the dogs behaviour that do not involve the McCann's.

Neither belief at this moment in time can produce any concrete evidence to hold up each view so it's a constant stalemate. You either believe in the dogs or you don't.

No-one needs to 'explain away' the dogs behaviour.  I think the dogs are brilliant.   But Martin Grime himself gives us all the reasons why their alerts are not proof of a dead body ever being in 5A - which IMO is what some people are still claiming as a fact.     How repeating what the handler himself has stated can be construed as discrediting him is preposterous imo.   

[Wonderfulspam]

No-one needs to 'explain away' the dogs behaviour.  I think the dogs are brilliant.   But Martin Grime himself gives us all the reasons why their alerts are not proof of a dead body ever being in 5A - which IMO is what some people are still claiming as a fact.     How repeating what the handler himself has stated can be construed as discrediting him is preposterous imo.   

No one has claimed it as fact, but you continue wumming that same old mantra.

Ok, so dogs don't definitiveley prove death in the appartment.

But have you seen or heard from Maddie since Kate & Gerry couldn't decide wether one or both of them put her to bed ?

[ferryman]

But they didn't find any blood in one location he alerted?

What?

Only stuff Keela alerted to was sent to the FSS.

[slartibartfast]

What?

Only stuff Keela alerted to was sent to the FSS.

...and...What has that got to do with my statement?

[Wonderfulspam]

Still no examples of missing persons returning alive after cadaver dog alerts then.

Here is one that sadly didn't. Spot the similarity.

Missing Zahra Claire Baker, her parents claimed she was in bed asleep, in reality of course she wasn't.


Police are continuing to searching for missing 10-year-old Zahra Claire Baker. She was reported missing around 2 p.m Saturday, said police.

She was discovered missing Saturday afternoon.

The girl's parents told police she was last seen sleeping in her bed around 2:30 a.m. They reported her missing around 2 p.m., said police.

Her parents said they searched for the girl for an hour before reporting her missing.

A search warrant for two vehicles registered to Adam and Elisa Baker reveal that a search and rescue dog "gave a positive alert for the presence of human remains."

Zahra Baker's body was dismembered and the remains hidden across several rural locations.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/zahrabaker.html

[Carew]

Silkywhiskers Full Member
 Posts: 280
Watched

 Re: The DNA results used to implicate the McCanns revisited.
« Reply #132 on: February 23, 2014, 10:24:52 PM »

Quote

Eddie told us she died in 5a.

UNQUOTE
----------------------------------------

I have no problem with the dogs - and I have no problem with Grime as a competent trainer. 

I do have a problem believing that none of the other apartments or cars had any of the 'odours' in them which Eddie and Keela had been trained to detect.   Despite the amount of human traffic constantly passing through them for years on end - not even a single tiny speck of blood has ever been shed in any of them - apparently.

Simply not credible IMO.

...........but don`t your points illustrate that we are not experts?

Do you think that your points will not have already occurred to those with greater knowledge and understanding of the deployment and interpretation of the work of the dogs?

There must be more to it than "statements of the obvious" imo.

All sites / crime scenes for investigation could presumably be well spattered with all manner of historical and recent bodily substances............

It is surely then " not credible" that EVRD`s aren`t alerting and rushing about in an excited state all the time.

How do you explain that they aren`t?..........That they produce results from sites exposed to all those issues of cross-contamination and so forth.  The crime scenes/investigation sites aren`t sterile.

[pathfinder73]

The dogs matter! Why? Because the main suspect who has not come forward in 7 years was seen carrying a child in a deep sleep that matched Madeleine McCann's description i.e. probably dead as Eddie's cadaver alerts indicate.

[Mr Gray]

The dogs matter! Why? Because the main suspect who has not come forward in 7 years was seen carrying a child in a deep sleep that matched Madeleine McCann's description i.e. probably dead as Eddie's cadaver alerts indicate.

that matched maddie description?...but we know there were lots of little blonde girls around that week

[jassi]

that matched maddie description?...but we know there were lots of little blonde girls around that week

Indeed, but all the others are accounted for.

[jassi]

that matched maddie description?...but we know there were lots of little blonde girls around that week

Indeed, but all the others are accounted for, or did others go missing that week?

[Benice]

...........but don`t your points illustrate that we are not experts?

Do you think that your points will not have already occurred to those with greater knowledge and understanding of the deployment and interpretation of the work of the dogs?

There must be more to it than "statements of the obvious" imo.

All sites / crime scenes for investigation could presumably be well spattered with all manner of historical and recent bodily substances............

It is surely then " not credible" that EVRD`s aren`t alerting and rushing about in an excited state all the time.

How do you explain that they aren`t?..........That they produce results from sites exposed to all those issues of cross-contamination and so forth.  The crime scenes/investigation sites aren`t sterile.

IMo The only expertise required is the ability to read and to apply common sense.

Martin Grime (not me) explained that his dogs could detect the minutest residue of blood - even if it had been deposited decades ago.  IIRC he gives an example of this skill i.e. Keela alerting to blood which had been deposited in the 1960s.

Common sense dictates that nine cars and 4 apartments cannot possibly ALL have been totally devoid of the presence of blood - after years and years of usage by hundreds of people.

There is an undeniable major discrepancy between searching the Renault and 5a - and the other apartments and vehicles which is .... 'time spent'.

In view of the above then IMO if  the dogs had been directed to give as much attention and time to the other cars and to  the other apartments as they were directed to give to 5A and the Renault - then there would have been alerts in one or more of them.   

[Carew]

IMo Martin Grime (not me) explained that his dogs could detect the minutest residue of blood - even if it had been deposited decades ago.  IIRC he gives an example of this skill i.e. Keela alerting to blood which had been deposited in the 1960s.

Common sense dictates that nine cars and 4 apartments cannot possibly ALL have been totally devoid of the presence of blood - after years and years of usage by hundreds of people.The only expertise required is the ability to read and to apply common sense.



There is an undeniable major discrepancy between searching the Renault and 5a - and the other apartments and vehicles which is .... 'time spent'.

In view of the above then IMO if  the dogs had been directed to give as much attention and time to the other cars and to  the other apartments as they were directed to give to 5A and the Renault - then there would have been alerts in one or more of them.

I think you have demonstrated again the need to let the experts deploy the dogs.