Author Topic: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?  (Read 366370 times)

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ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1680 on: October 05, 2015, 05:39:45 AM »
Or right all along!

 8((()*/

Which interestingly it is the last possibility in your mind, I wonder why

This case has nothng to do with the Mccanns, try and remember that before you start slagging off all and sundry even if you are invested in the saintly duo

Still not found exactly what I'm looking for, but in the meantime, this:

2.147 DCO HARPER would have it that he did not receive Dr X letter of
1 May 2008, but this Inquiry has established that Dr X e-mailed
Page 51 of 383


Executive Summary    Highly Confidential – Personal Information
DCO HARPER a copy of the letter on 17 May 2008. If there had been any room
for doubt beforehand, there could now be no doubt that from that time
DCO HARPER knew Exhibit JAR/6 was not bone.

2.148 Even so, on 18 May 2008, DCO HARPER formulated a press release for
circulation which summarised the findings of the examination of Exhibit JAR/6 by
the laboratory. He is equivocal in his reference to Exhibit JAR/6 implying that the
laboratory had not definitively stated it was not bone and instead focussed on their
comment that if there was a need to show definitively what it was it would require
further examination.
2.149 DCO HARPER recounts in the same press release, details of recent finds –
20 pieces of bone and six children’s teeth – which were all found in what he was
calling the ‘cellar’ area. He spoke of expecting the results of forensic tests to date
them in the next week stating ‘at that stage we will know more about the possibility
that there might have been unexplained deaths of children within Haut de la
Garenne’. In this way, he had effectively glossed over the issue of Exhibit JAR/6
and encouraged the very worst impressions in the minds of the public and
particularly the media.

2.150 Nevertheless, Senator James PERCHARD persisted in his attempts to have the
status of Exhibit JAR/6 made subject of a public statement in the Senate.
CO POWER merely advised the Home Affairs Minister Wendy KINNARD to
comment that many items had been sent for examination, but by the time she
came back to him and pointed out that she would be asked exactly when
DCO HARPER knew it was not bone, he had left Jersey for a conference on the
Isle of Man which may account for the lack of a response from him.
2.151 On 20 May 2008, whilst at this conference, CO POWER says that someone told
him that the first ‘find’ was a piece of coconut and that this came as a total ‘bolt
from the blue’. In light of the sequence of events outlined above, this Inquiry is
sceptical that CO POWER had no inkling of this, especially bearing in mind the
existence of daily meetings between himself and DCO HARPER. Nevertheless, it
appears that by 20 May 2008 – at the latest – CO POWER accepts that he was
now fully aware doubts existed about the nature of Exhibit JAR/6.
Page 52 of 383





Executive Summary    Highly Confidential – Personal Information
2.152 CO POWER explains that he had discussions with DCO HARPER and Senator
Wendy KINNARD where he sought more information and advised on ‘holding
lines’ to take with the media. He states that he asked DCO HARPER directly
about the doubts over the first ‘find’ and was told that there had been confusing
messages coming from the Laboratory, but that DCO HARPER would ‘take full
responsibility’.
2.153 If CO POWER’s recollection is correct, he had grounds to suspect that Exhibit
JAR/6 was not human, yet permitted or failed to correct DCO HARPER’s
continuing misleading statements about the scientific evidence being ‘inconclusive’
rather than present the true situation to the public.
2.154 CO POWER’s method of dealing with this was to call for a report from
DCO HARPER on the matter whilst advising Chief Executive Bill OGLEY and
Home Affairs Minister Wendy KINNARD to seek to close down further discussion
on the matter and not make further comment on the basis she was waiting for a
report on the matter.
2.155 This Inquiry concludes this attempt to ‘close down further discussions’ was
unhealthy procrastination. An open and transparent approach would have been to
report what was known at that time. CO POWER failed to do so.
2.156 Even as late as 8 June 2008, CO POWER was enquiring of DCO HARPER as to
the current position in relation to the fragment and asking ‘are we accepting that it
is not human or do we see the results as inconclusive? DCO HARPER replied ‘we
see the results now as inconclusive’. This inaccurate view was not challenged by
CO POWER, who we have good reason to believe, knew this was not a fair or
wholly truthful stance to maintain and who continued in his failure to effectively
supervise DCO HARPER on the issue. If CO POWER was in any doubt, should
have sought an independent review. He did not do so and the police and
politicians were being misled.
 Conclusion 19
2.157 CO POWER created and/or permitted an environment where lack of
supervision allowed DCO HARPER to proceed without regard to the effect of
his actions on Operation Rectangle. Nevertheless, this Inquiry accepts that
Page 53 of 383




Executive Summary    Highly Confidential – Personal Information
CO POWER could not have prevented the media release regarding suspects
‘A’ on 24 June 2008.
2.158 The events that preceded the suspects ‘A’ incident are detailed in the body of the
Report and are described elsewhere in this summary. They concerned the
breakdown in relationships between the prosecution legal team and
DCO HARPER as SIO, particularly in relation to the media release made by
DCO HARPER on 24 June 2008.
2.159 DCO HARPER dictated that media release to TEXT REDACTED
following the release from custody of the suspects ‘A’. It was pejorative in tone
and sought to make clear that the only reason that the States of Jersey Police
were not able to charge suspects was because of the actions of the lawyers to the
enquiry. He ignored advice to take time to consider the contents of that release
prior to issue.
2.160 Unsurprisingly, the media seized upon the issue and pursued with the Attorney
General the suggestion that he interfered with case to prevent charges being
brought. He in turn requested a written explanation from CO POWER as to why
the release was made along with an assurance that similar attacks on the
prosecution would not be repeated. He made it clear that the conduct of
DCO HARPER had seriously jeopardised current prosecutions describing the
release as ‘irresponsible and damaging to the criminal justice process in Jersey’.
2.161 CO POWER comments in some detail on the incident in his statement,
recognising the impact of DCO HARPER’s release and the associated problems it
caused. To his credit, it could be argued that CO POWER took action when
confronted by the Attorney General. He explains his recognition of a need for a
recovery plan and that he engaged in a face to face meeting with DCO HARPER.
CO POWER instructed DCO HARPER in his future dealings with the Law Officers
and the method by which press releases would now be made. All in all this
demonstrated more positive and intrusive supervision than at most other times
throughout Operation Rectangle, in our view, evidencing some level

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1681 on: October 05, 2015, 06:29:47 AM »
Success at last:

The sample was logged into the ORAU system in the usual manner
and, as in all cases, a sample of bone powder was drilled from the
underside of the specimen using a tungsten carbide drill. The powder
weighed 440 mg. The technician performing this procedure noted that
the material did not behave as bone ordinarily would and did not have
the texture that normal bone exhibits.
The technician has a great deal
of experience in the sampling of bone (almost 30 years). Because of
this uncertainty, and as a precaution, a small amount of the sample
was combusted to measure the % nitrogen remaining. % N is a good
correlate for protein, which is dominated in bone by collagen, and the
measurement of nitrogen offers a simple test concerning whether the
sample is dateable or not. Low % N means that the material is
essentially un-dateable using radiocarbon.
5.6.20 X (ORAU) reported that the Jersey sample only had
0.6 % N. Ordinarily this is too low to yield extractable collagen of any
quality. Despite our concerns, X requested that a fuller
chemical treatment be undertaken, in an attempt to produce a
result, but although some material was extracted it was demonstrably
not collagenous based on the analysis of the texture of the material,

the C:N atomic ratios and the similarly significant lack of nitrogen, so
the sample was formally failed and the States of Jersey Police notified.
5.6.21 A further analysis of the bone sample later the following week by
X and X (British Museum faunal specialist
and one of our collaborators in work undertaken in the ORAU)
concluded that the sample was not in fact bone, but was almost
certainly wood.
It seemed surprising to us that the material could be
so confidently identified by X , and particularly that it could
be determined to be an infant specimen. We informed X of
our concerns shortly afterwards, by phone and e-mail. We stand by our
original assessment. We suggest that the curvature of the material
may have had something to do with the misidentification. We
think it appears to be more like part of a large seed casing, or part of
something like a small piece of coconut.
Certainly, the density of the
material is most unlike bone, it is too light. Our conclusion is that this
sample is: a) not bone and b) not human. We are very surprised that
the forensic archaeologist could be so confident and differ in X
identification. We suggested at the time that a further opinion would be
required, but this not considered by X . A further
analysis of the bone structure under a suitable microscope would
confirm the situation rapidly.
5.6.22 If this sample is bone and close to modern in age, then it would be
unusual in our experience for it to be so poorly preserved and lacking
in collagen
. One would expect normally that for a bone coming from
the last few decades that at least some collagen would survive. In the
absence of collagen, one would conclude that the bone is probably
older than this, possibly by several hundred or even several thousands
of years. In this light, it is not liable to be of forensic interest. Our
assessment is, however, that it is almost certainly not bone and it is for
this reason that we have significant doubts over its forensic
importance. This probably explains the problems we encountered with
the sample and the fact that it is not able to be dated using collagen
extraction techniques.
 


So please, let us have no more nonsense about collagen or human bone.

Eddie reacted to a coconut or a piece of wood.

He isn't supposed to.

And if there was some unconnected scent-source within Eddie's scent range when the test was carried out, Grime didn't do his job properly, because he should have got Eddie to test the area beforehand, just like the report of the inspection at the gym, PdL, says he did ....
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 06:43:29 AM by ferryman »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1682 on: October 05, 2015, 07:36:30 AM »
So it wasn't bone....another [pack of lies exposed

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1683 on: October 05, 2015, 08:00:51 AM »

Eddie reacted to a coconut or a piece of wood.

He isn't supposed to.

And if there was some unconnected scent-source within Eddie's scent range when the test was carried out, Grime didn't do his job properly, because he should have got Eddie to test the area beforehand, just like the report of the inspection at the gym, PdL, says he did ....

Dog reacted, Human recovered item.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1684 on: October 05, 2015, 08:02:20 AM »
Dog reacted, Human recovered item.

it wasn't bone...so no human item recovered

Offline Carana

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1685 on: October 05, 2015, 08:32:19 AM »
I've seen your quote earlier about WOOD...Harper explains if you watch the video that the fragment that the anthropologist found which SHE identified as from a skull was NOT the fragment (analysed by the original lab as containing collagen before being passed over to others who said it was wood/coconut)returned to her, get it now? Or not?

Never mind, you carry on castigating the chief on the ground trying to find evidence in a child abuse nquiry and calling him a liar so that somehow your argument against Eddie will improve the Mccanns lot....so convoluted and dark its horrid

So Harper is insinuating that the skull was swapped for a bit of coconut to thwart his investigation? Reminds me of someone else... &%+((£

But Harper himself had ruled it out.

The Senior Investigating Officer (SIO) is particularly upset that comments by his forensic services manager Victoria Coupland, have been taken completely out of context by the author of the article and used to infer an attempt to suppress information by her. The words by Mrs Coupland were part of an explanation as to the enquiry team wanting to avoid a debate by two experts which would have detracted from the abuse enquiry. The SIO, Mr Harper, takes full responsibility for the decision to curtail the debate on the item which had already been ruled out of the enquiry and which would have indeed distracted attention from the victims of abuse.
http://www.jersey.police.uk/news-appeals/2008/may/clarification-about-bone-fragment/

Offline Carana

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1686 on: October 05, 2015, 09:21:44 AM »
A damp bit of coconut would presumably absorb odours. It's possible that Eddie correctly reacted to something within his training parameters that was on or near it and the humans incorrectly assumed that it was to the fragment itself.

I can't find any trace of whether Keela sniffed it as well or not. Unless they were expecting recent blood, it was probably deemed unnecessary. However, it doesn't exclude the possibility that the construction workers or even the forensic people had cut themselves.

There were also burned bits of animal bone found nearby. He could therefore equally have been reacting to the absorbed smell of those.



Fragment of possibly juvenile human skull was recovered from within a Victorian context of the excavation of the north-western stairwell.

Burnt bone (pending species identification) from context at the north-western stairwell


http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html


From the anthropologist's notes:
23 February 2008
09.10 hrs
Examined JAR/6. Recovered from Context 011 Trench 3. Degraded fragment of bone thought to be human skull, probably from a child (see full inventory for details). Associated with mixed debris including animal bone, buttons and a leather “thong”. Discussed findings with SIO Lenny HARPER and Forensic Manager Vicky COUPLAND. It was decided that the bone should be sent for C14 dating*.”


http://planetjersey.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1508.245





Offline G-Unit

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1687 on: October 05, 2015, 10:47:11 AM »
A damp bit of coconut would presumably absorb odours. It's possible that Eddie correctly reacted to something within his training parameters that was on or near it and the humans incorrectly assumed that it was to the fragment itself.

I can't find any trace of whether Keela sniffed it as well or not. Unless they were expecting recent blood, it was probably deemed unnecessary. However, it doesn't exclude the possibility that the construction workers or even the forensic people had cut themselves.

There were also burned bits of animal bone found nearby. He could therefore equally have been reacting to the absorbed smell of those.



Fragment of possibly juvenile human skull was recovered from within a Victorian context of the excavation of the north-western stairwell.

Burnt bone (pending species identification) from context at the north-western stairwell


http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html


From the anthropologist's notes:
23 February 2008
09.10 hrs
Examined JAR/6. Recovered from Context 011 Trench 3. Degraded fragment of bone thought to be human skull, probably from a child (see full inventory for details). Associated with mixed debris including animal bone, buttons and a leather “thong”. Discussed findings with SIO Lenny HARPER and Forensic Manager Vicky COUPLAND. It was decided that the bone should be sent for C14 dating*.”


http://planetjersey.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1508.245

It would indeed seem to be human assumptions which caused the problems. Eddie alerted to an area and humans decided they had found a piece of skull after digging. Eddie didn't react to animal bone.

Both the EVRD and Human blood search dog are presumptive screening assets. Any alert indications given MUST be forensically corroborated to be conclusive.

A large amount of animal bone historically deposited in the grounds of HDLG as garbage was ignored.
http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html

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ferryman

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Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1688 on: October 05, 2015, 10:57:04 AM »
It would indeed seem to be human assumptions which caused the problems. Eddie alerted to an area and humans decided they had found a piece of skull after digging. Eddie didn't react to animal bone.

Both the EVRD and Human blood search dog are presumptive screening assets. Any alert indications given MUST be forensically corroborated to be conclusive.

A large amount of animal bone historically deposited in the grounds of HDLG as garbage was ignored.
http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html

Eddie reacted to a coconut (or a bit of timber).  He isn't supposed to.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1689 on: October 05, 2015, 11:00:33 AM »
Eddie reacted to a coconut (or a bit of timber).  He isn't supposed to.

Do you have a quote or a picture of Eddie alerting to this fragment of whatever? He alerted to the area where the fragment was found, but I haven't found anything to say he alerted to the actual fragment. If you have, please share.
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ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1690 on: October 05, 2015, 11:58:01 AM »
Do you have a quote or a picture of Eddie alerting to this fragment of whatever? He alerted to the area where the fragment was found, but I haven't found anything to say he alerted to the actual fragment. If you have, please share.

Already covered that.

If Grime had done his job properly, he'd have had Eddie screen the area beforehand to rule out pre-existing scents.

If he didn't (and the evidence of PdL suggests he may not have) blame Grime.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1691 on: October 05, 2015, 01:37:46 PM »
It would indeed seem to be human assumptions which caused the problems. Eddie alerted to an area and humans decided they had found a piece of skull after digging. Eddie didn't react to animal bone.

Both the EVRD and Human blood search dog are presumptive screening assets. Any alert indications given MUST be forensically corroborated to be conclusive.

A large amount of animal bone historically deposited in the grounds of HDLG as garbage was ignored.
http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html

That's what it says in the reports.
But why believe that when the pundits say it was all the fault of Boogah Man II and his dawg ?.

"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Alfred R Jones

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Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1692 on: October 05, 2015, 01:53:47 PM »
Do dog apologists accept that dogs sometimes make false alerts or is this not part of their belief system?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1693 on: October 05, 2015, 01:55:27 PM »
Already covered that.

If Grime had done his job properly, he'd have had Eddie screen the area beforehand to rule out pre-existing scents.

If he didn't (and the evidence of PdL suggests he may not have) blame Grime.

How would that have worked then?
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1694 on: October 05, 2015, 02:01:51 PM »
Do dog apologists accept that dogs sometimes make false alerts or is this not part of their belief system?

On of these perchance

https://twitter.com/dogapologist
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey