Author Topic: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.  (Read 50516 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2014, 06:06:12 PM »
Scipio and I disagree on this, but my view is that to break a piece off would involve hitting a solid object very forcefully such as the floor, table, worktop, chair or possibly the AGA towel rail, rather than a pliable giving human body. In other words when the fight was taking place a blow missed the intended soft target, and hit something hard instead. Unless of course the stock was previously damaged and weakened in that area.

A skull is not soft and forgiving it is quite hard. His skull was hit more than one time.  The stock was pushed against the metal of the gun and it broke where the stock meets the metal.  It could indeed have broken from smshing the skull the killer did not have to miss and hit a floor or other similar object to break it.

 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2014, 06:31:46 PM »
John/Scipio 

As far as I can see the soc photos show an upturned chair (single) and two upturned small stools (which look like they may have been used by the twins).  I think if NB stumbled into the chairs/stools/table this could account for the upturned furniture and broken crockery.  If the gun was swung around like a golf club then I guess this could account for the lampshade.  Re the aga, as you might imagine, I tend to run with Peter Sutherst's expert evidence although I accept that the CCRC's expert countered this.  I believe CC's WS refers to SC as throwing pots and pans.

The wounds on Nevill are consistent with being bashed with the weapon.  The way a rifle is wielded to bash someone is to have one hand on the butt another hand on the fore grips and then to strike with the butt of the weapon.  Holding the butt with 2 hands and swinging like a gold club would not explain his wounds.  Both hands around the foregrip and bashing his head in would likely break the stock off entirely.  In the meantime it still would not be tall enough to break the lampshade unless wielded like swinging an axe over the head. You will not get good leverage holding it over your head though. You swing it over your shoulder to have good control and leverage if you were going to hold it with both hands on the grip.  But if you were going to use it th emost natural way and way that rifles are used to batter than it is with 1 hand on the grip, one on the most narrow portion of the stock and to strike with the buttplate.  This would force the stock against the metla portion of th erifle and account for how the shard split off.

Using the side of the stock would result in a different break pattern. The stock would have to break away from the gun and at minimum be loosely attached if not completely separated.

Nevill and his killer fought over control of the weapon.  The suppressor scratched against the mantle in the process.  Instead of following the evidence you try making up a way for Jeremy to be innocent.  That included you ignoring the evidence the suppressor scratched against the mantle and the various damage to the kitchen and to Nevill.

I don't care if you want to hide from reality or not but do not piss on my leg and then tell me it is raining out. You hiding from the evidence doesn't make it go away.

Scipio

The other day, according to you, I had mental health issues and needed a shrink on the basis that I said I would not want to knowingly live in a home where mass murders took place!  Now, again according to you, I have severe emotional scars as a result of being adopted and on the basis that I have made posts regarding the psychology of adoption and how this may have played a part in the WHF case.  Although I think this is a feature of the case I don't think adoption is as important as the likely adverse effects of June's mental illness circa 1959 on SC.  Of course it is clear for all to see you are a well-rounded individual!  You might be interested in knowing that most of the studies and research about adoption have been produced by psychologists and psychiatrists hailing from your great country:

David Brodzinsky

Harold Grotevant

Marshall Schechter

Nancy Verrier

David Kerschner

We have nothing like this in the UK:

http://www.b......s.org/

We don't need to as England unsealed the records in 1976.  Despite your country claiming to be "Leader Of The Free World" those American states who uphold 'sealed records' are the only places in the world who continue to do so.

Your fixation on mental problems caused by adoption seems to stem from your own adoption.  I do hope you get help for such problem because it is quite clear it eats away at you and you see everything though adoption goggles.   

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2014, 04:02:38 AM »
Jackie seems to have abandoned her own thread after making the stupid comment that no way would Jeremy not have been injured if he had been the one engaged in a struggle with Nevill; smaller, weaker Sheila would not have to be injured but Jeremy would have to be injured.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5584.30.html

With friends who make such dumb arguments Jeremy has no hope in hell of ever seeing the freedom.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2014, 10:18:02 AM »
Jackie seems to have abandoned her own thread after making the stupid comment that no way would Jeremy not have been injured if he had been the one engaged in a struggle with Nevill; smaller, weaker Sheila would not have to be injured but Jeremy would have to be injured.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5584.30.html

With friends who make such dumb arguments Jeremy has no hope in hell of ever seeing the freedom.

I'm going to start making allowances for your rudeness as having read some of your posts on the Amityville forum I think you might have an autistic spectrum disorder. 

I haven't read Jackie's posts but I am sure they can't be any more "dumb" than your posts claiming NB engaged in a power struggle over the rifle with his assailant, using his two hands, when we know this was biologically impossible.  I have pointed out to you previously that the pathologist, Dr Vanezis, stated that one of the gunshot wounds NB sustained in the bedroom rendered his left arm "TOTALLY IMPAIRED".  However you continue to disregard the word "TOTALLY" and persist with nonsense claims.  Anyone reading the pathology report objectively will appreciate that the gunshot wounds poor NB sustained in the bedroom left him as good as dead by the time he reached the kitchen. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4744.msg173421#msg173421

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4744.msg173537#msg173537

« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 10:28:43 AM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2014, 12:01:05 PM »
I'm going to start making allowances for your rudeness as having read some of your posts on the Amityville forum I think you might have an autistic spectrum disorder. 

I haven't read Jackie's posts but I am sure they can't be any more "dumb" than your posts claiming NB engaged in a power struggle over the rifle with his assailant, using his two hands, when we know this was biologically impossible.  I have pointed out to you previously that the pathologist, Dr Vanezis, stated that one of the gunshot wounds NB sustained in the bedroom rendered his left arm "TOTALLY IMPAIRED".  However you continue to disregard the word "TOTALLY" and persist with nonsense claims.  Anyone reading the pathology report objectively will appreciate that the gunshot wounds poor NB sustained in the bedroom left him as good as dead by the time he reached the kitchen. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4744.msg173421#msg173421

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4744.msg173537#msg173537

The pathologist can only render an opinion Holly, the truth might be somewhat different since the evidence indicates otherwise.  Regardless of who the assailant was, the evidence from the scene points to a fight in the kitchen and unless there were two intruders who had a falling out (highly unlikely) then the only other explanation is that Nevill was involved.  Whether he used two arms or one will only be known by his assailant. I tend to go with the one arm however given the blood on the wall half-way up the stairs which indicates a severely wounded Nevill came down them.  Had Nevill had the use of both arms I think the outcome could have been very different.



A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2014, 03:17:57 PM »
The pathologist can only render an opinion Holly, the truth might be somewhat different since the evidence indicates otherwise.  Regardless of who the assailant was, the evidence from the scene points to a fight in the kitchen and unless there were two intruders who had a falling out (highly unlikely) then the only other explanation is that Nevill was involved.  Whether he used two arms or one will only be known by his assailant. I tend to go with the one arm however given the blood on the wall half-way up the stairs which indicates a severely wounded Nevill came down them.  Had Nevill had the use of both arms I think the outcome could have been very different.

Afternoon Guv  8**8:/:

Well I guess as I disagree with Dr Ferguson's findings I can't have it both ways ie accept Dr Vanezis' findings and reject Dr Ferguson's findings  8-)(--)  Although I guess it could be argued that pathology is an exact science and psychology less so  8-)(--)

All I can go on is that Dr Vanezis has stated with regard to gunshot wounds NB sustained in the bedroom that they were "Not immediately life threatening although could well have been if other injuries had not supervened.  However, I cannot say that over what period of time this would have occurred".  As a result of the three injuries sustained in the bedroom the pathologist identified:

-Extreme pain
-Substantial blood loss internal and external
-Total impairment of left arm

If the above is correct them imo this would render NB incapable of putting up any sort of fight with either JB or SC.

The crockery knocked of the table, upturned chair and stools and broken lampshade I believe were caused by NB/SC knocking into furniture and SC swinging the rifle.

It is well established across all relevant disciplines that those with 'disorganised attachments' (which is what I believe SC had due to abrupt changes in 'primary caregivers' and June's severe mental illness) have a propensity towards states of rage, aggression and violence.  I have Googled 'disorganised attachment rage' and it has thrown up the following three links which are the first of 1,350,000.

http://www.traumaregister.co.uk/Articles/Serious_Violence_Trauma_Disorganized_Attachment.htm

http://www.daniel-sonkin.com/articles/anger_attachment.html

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CbmNHMtwwO8C&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=disorganised+attachment+rage&source=bl&ots=-cSSFnIs_1&sig=Dd8BGvfolWkM2FecrDMh9IneUL0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tCnJU_uCJ6707AaC1YEo&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=disorganised%20attachment%20rage&f=false

The scratching of the Aga surround/mantle I believe was fabricated and I support Peter Sutherst's findings ie that the scratches were made AFTER the tragedy.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 03:28:41 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2014, 04:20:49 PM »
Afternoon Guv  8**8:/:

Well I guess as I disagree with Dr Ferguson's findings I can't have it both ways ie accept Dr Vanezis' findings and reject Dr Ferguson's findings  8-)(--)  Although I guess it could be argued that pathology is an exact science and psychology less so  8-)(--)

All I can go on is that Dr Vanezis has stated with regard to gunshot wounds NB sustained in the bedroom that they were "Not immediately life threatening although could well have been if other injuries had not supervened.  However, I cannot say that over what period of time this would have occurred".  As a result of the three injuries sustained in the bedroom the pathologist identified:

-Extreme pain
-Substantial blood loss internal and external
-Total impairment of left arm

If the above is correct them imo this would render NB incapable of putting up any sort of fight with either JB or SC.

The crockery knocked of the table, upturned chair and stools and broken lampshade I believe were caused by NB/SC knocking into furniture and SC swinging the rifle.  It is well established across all relevant disciplines that those with 'disorganised attachments' (which is what I believe SC had due to abrupt changes in 'primary caregivers' and June's severe mental illness) have a propensity towards states of rage, aggression and violence.  I have Googled 'disorganised attachment rage' and it has thrown up the following three links which are the first of 1,350,000.

http://www.traumaregister.co.uk/Articles/Serious_Violence_Trauma_Disorganized_Attachment.htm

http://www.daniel-sonkin.com/articles/anger_attachment.html

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CbmNHMtwwO8C&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=disorganised+attachment+rage&source=bl&ots=-cSSFnIs_1&sig=Dd8BGvfolWkM2FecrDMh9IneUL0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tCnJU_uCJ6707AaC1YEo&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=disorganised%20attachment%20rage&f=false

The scratching of the Aga surround/mantle I believe was fabricated and I support Peter Sutherst's findings ie that the scratches were made AFTER the tragedy.

Ignoring evidence doesn't make it go away.

Nevill had partial impairment of his left ar.  That doesn't prevent his left hand from still functioning nor his right arm.  Someone who faces the spectre of being killed is going to use their right arm and anything else they can to try to disarm a killer.

You are not following evidence you are ignoring it.  Your claim Nevill did nothing and was simply beaten by someone in a rage is not supported by the evidence.  She was in a rage so knocked over chairs and broke things doesn't cut it, why would she not do the same in the other rooms?   

The moderator was obviously attached in order to break the light. That most likely happened while they were fighting over control of the gun.  Similarly, the scratching of the aga corroborates such.  Sutherst's findings are rejected by others as having any scientific validity.  Dismissing evidence simply because it is not convenient doesn't help you in any way. Ther eis no rational way for the scratches to the aga to happen through any ordinary accident which would have left lateral marks simply.  Sutherts offers no valid basis to try to dismiss the arks if you want to prove them planted you need something else. The photos he relied upon were poor quality and did not show the areas in question closeup let alone at the needed angles. You need qulity film and also NASA like equipment to try to do what he claims he acocmplished.  He shot all his credibility to hell in claiming a tiny speck was able to be determined to be a tiny fleck of nail varnish that he matched to a tiny mark on Sheila's toe. He could not objectively demonstrate his findings to be accurate he just offered wild opinions that do not scientifically hold up to scrutiny. 

In the meantime you ignore that the broken glass lampshade, and broken crockery would surely have cut her bare feet had she been running around in there wildly breaking things.  She also would have been covered in blood. Saying she changed requires evidence, where is her dress or blouse full of back spatter?  Did she commit the murders nude?  The wild cleaning stories you have come up with can't result wounds to her feet that would have existed going away. 

In the meantime why would she beat Nevill, her favorite person who instantly calmed her down in the past even when she was not medicated?  The only acoc..ts people could present of her out of control was Freddie and he was astonished how she instantly calmed down upon seeing him. Severely beating Nevill for the hell of it doesn't work from any standpoint.  The evidence establishes the gun was empty and that Nevill had to be beaten unconscious in order to be able to relaod to kill him.  Things were distrubed during  astruggle as he tried to disarm his attacker and grabbed the weapon.  The attacker got sole control of the weapon and bashased Nevill with the stock.  The killer operated in this fashion:



You seem to picture the gun being wielded as a baseball bat though in fact it was bashed against him in such manner.  He blocked with his right arm which received defensie wounds in the process and resulted in his watch being torn off.  Your claim that Nevill was passed out already and his arm bashed by someone in a wild rage is absurd.  He was actively defending the blows.  Te killer struck him in the face multiple times breaking his nose and giving him black eyes.  The killer eventually managed to bash his head in.  In the process the stock broke. The force of the stock being forced into the metal of the gun caused a piece to split off the stock.  That in turn would have scratched at minimum and more likely cut the killer's hand unless the killer had gloves .  The break was right where the killers had would be. It would be just like when a wood handled shovel broke where I was holding it.  I had on no gloves and the palm of my hand was gashed by the wood.  Still today there is a mark where it happened. A feint white line but it is still there many years later.  Mentla probles doe snot give someone magic skin on their feet and hands impervious to wounds and people in a rage are not careful and more likely to be wounded.

There would have been physical evidenc eproving she committed th emurders had she done so but ther eis none.

Worse she can't have killed herself.  Discounting evidence doesn't make it go away you must rebut it with competent evidence in order to refute it. 

Reliable evidence establishes she was shot and killed while seated propped up against something with the moderator attached to the weapon. After she was killed:

1) the moderator was removed from the rifle and put away in the closet
2) her body was moved flat before the blood finished flowing and drying thus resulting in blood going down the side of her neck and pooling on the floor
3) the bible was placed in the pool of blood that formed on the floor after she died.  It was opened and closed with the blood still wet creating a mirror image.

She could not have done any of these things.  The killer is the only one who would have been in the position to do these things. 



 
totally unscienYour claim she was simply in a rage

Sutherst
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2014, 04:55:19 PM »
Ignoring evidence doesn't make it go away.

Nevill had partial impairment of his left ar.  That doesn't prevent his left hand from still functioning nor his right arm.  Someone who faces the spectre of being killed is going to use their right arm and anything else they can to try to disarm a killer.

You are not following evidence you are ignoring it.  Your claim Nevill did nothing and was simply beaten by someone in a rage is not supported by the evidence.  She was in a rage so knocked over chairs and broke things doesn't cut it, why would she not do the same in the other rooms?   

The moderator was obviously attached in order to break the light. That most likely happened while they were fighting over control of the gun.  Similarly, the scratching of the aga corroborates such.  Sutherst's findings are rejected by others as having any scientific validity.  Dismissing evidence simply because it is not convenient doesn't help you in any way. Ther eis no rational way for the scratches to the aga to happen through any ordinary accident which would have left lateral marks simply.  Sutherts offers no valid basis to try to dismiss the arks if you want to prove them planted you need something else. The photos he relied upon were poor quality and did not show the areas in question closeup let alone at the needed angles. You need qulity film and also NASA like equipment to try to do what he claims he acocmplished.  He shot all his credibility to hell in claiming a tiny speck was able to be determined to be a tiny fleck of nail varnish that he matched to a tiny mark on Sheila's toe. He could not objectively demonstrate his findings to be accurate he just offered wild opinions that do not scientifically hold up to scrutiny. 

In the meantime you ignore that the broken glass lampshade, and broken crockery would surely have cut her bare feet had she been running around in there wildly breaking things.  She also would have been covered in blood. Saying she changed requires evidence, where is her dress or blouse full of back spatter?  Did she commit the murders nude?  The wild cleaning stories you have come up with can't result wounds to her feet that would have existed going away. 

In the meantime why would she beat Nevill, her favorite person who instantly calmed her down in the past even when she was not medicated?  The only acoc..ts people could present of her out of control was Freddie and he was astonished how she instantly calmed down upon seeing him. Severely beating Nevill for the hell of it doesn't work from any standpoint.  The evidence establishes the gun was empty and that Nevill had to be beaten unconscious in order to be able to relaod to kill him.  Things were distrubed during  astruggle as he tried to disarm his attacker and grabbed the weapon.  The attacker got sole control of the weapon and bashased Nevill with the stock.  The killer operated in this fashion:



You seem to picture the gun being wielded as a baseball bat though in fact it was bashed against him in such manner.  He blocked with his right arm which received defensie wounds in the process and resulted in his watch being torn off.  Your claim that Nevill was passed out already and his arm bashed by someone in a wild rage is absurd.  He was actively defending the blows.  Te killer struck him in the face multiple times breaking his nose and giving him black eyes.  The killer eventually managed to bash his head in.  In the process the stock broke. The force of the stock being forced into the metal of the gun caused a piece to split off the stock.  That in turn would have scratched at minimum and more likely cut the killer's hand unless the killer had gloves .  The break was right where the killers had would be. It would be just like when a wood handled shovel broke where I was holding it.  I had on no gloves and the palm of my hand was gashed by the wood.  Still today there is a mark where it happened. A feint white line but it is still there many years later.  Mentla probles doe snot give someone magic skin on their feet and hands impervious to wounds and people in a rage are not careful and more likely to be wounded.

There would have been physical evidenc eproving she committed th emurders had she done so but ther eis none.

Worse she can't have killed herself.  Discounting evidence doesn't make it go away you must rebut it with competent evidence in order to refute it. 

Reliable evidence establishes she was shot and killed while seated propped up against something with the moderator attached to the weapon. After she was killed:

1) the moderator was removed from the rifle and put away in the closet
2) her body was moved flat before the blood finished flowing and drying thus resulting in blood going down the side of her neck and pooling on the floor
3) the bible was placed in the pool of blood that formed on the floor after she died.  It was opened and closed with the blood still wet creating a mirror image.

She could not have done any of these things.  The killer is the only one who would have been in the position to do these things. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/Themes/red-it-random/images/bbc/bold.gif

 
totally unscienYour claim she was simply in a rage

Sutherst

I have only read as far as your second sentence Scipio.  You claim "Nevill had partial impairment of his left ar."  I claim, based on the pathologist's report, "Regarding wound No. 7, in my view after the infliction of this wound the victims ability to use his left arm would be totally impaired".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=205.0

There is no point in debating with you Scipio when you refuse to accept the pathologist's views.  Go on call me a mental midget my little aspi as you did Victoria Principles on the Amityville forum:

http://www.amityvillefaq.com/truthboard/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10235#p150254

Awww we all love ya really Scipio and accept you for what you are.  I shan't bother with the emoticons hun.  You've put up some good posts and due to your way of thinking we get a different perspective.  Thank you Scipio.

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2014, 08:12:29 PM »
Holly, the pathologists opinion is only as good as the information he had at the time he wrote the first report.  Remember that he was furious when he later saw photos of an undisturbed Sheila lying in the master bedroom with no blood whatsoever across her face.  Quite a different picture from that which confronted him in the morgue.

By the same token, Vanezis can only opine what physical impairment Nevill had following the first three shots which hit him.  Vanezis saw Nevill in the morgue only after he had sustained a dreadful beating in the kitchen.  Too much dependence is placed on opinion which contradicts the evidence.  Vanezis gave an initial opinion about Sheila but that opinion was flawed since he did not have the benefit of having seen Sheila lying in the bedroom, I suggest the same applies in the case of Nevill.  Vanezis did not see the murder scene and only visited the farmhouse after the bodies had been removed, a state of affair which he later complained to police about. 

Nevill's ability to use his damaged arm would have been progressive, he may have had use of it initially but lost the use of it during the fight with his assailant, a fight which by the way happened and is not an invention.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 08:18:14 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2014, 09:56:45 PM »
I have only read as far as your second sentence Scipio.  You claim "Nevill had partial impairment of his left ar."  I claim, based on the pathologist's report, "Regarding wound No. 7, in my view after the infliction of this wound the victims ability to use his left arm would be totally impaired".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=205.0

There is no point in debating with you Scipio when you refuse to accept the pathologist's views.  Go on call me a mental midget my little aspi as you did Victoria Principles on the Amityville forum:

http://www.amityvillefaq.com/truthboard/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10235#p150254

Awww we all love ya really Scipio and accept you for what you are.  I shan't bother with the emoticons hun.  You've put up some good posts and due to your way of thinking we get a different perspective.  Thank you Scipio.

His arm was broken that means his use of his arm would be impared and limited.  It doesn't mean his hand wasn't able to grip anything or to try.

I don't beleive you didn't read anything else.  You can't refute what I wrote so you engage in your childish exercise to say why you are not going to respond to what I wrote to try to conceal that you can't.

You want ot pretend there was no fight in the kitchen and pretend that Sheila did it so you can go on and on about your mental theories which are all quite absurd but irrelevant so there is no need to burst your bubble about them either.  There is no reason to even get to them since you have nothing at all to refute the evidence that convicted Jeremy. Refusing to face such evidence doesn't refute it.

 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2014, 10:11:11 PM »
Holly, the pathologists opinion is only as good as the information he had at the time he wrote the first report.  Remember that he was furious when he later saw photos of an undisturbed Sheila lying in the master bedroom with no blood whatsoever across her face.  Quite a different picture from that which confronted him in the morgue.

By the same token, Vanezis can only opine what physical impairment Nevill had following the first three shots which hit him.  Vanezis saw Nevill in the morgue only after he had sustained a dreadful beating in the kitchen.  Too much dependence is placed on opinion which contradicts the evidence.  Vanezis gave an initial opinion about Sheila but that opinion was flawed since he did not have the benefit of having seen Sheila lying in the bedroom, I suggest the same applies in the case of Nevill.  Vanezis did not see the murder scene and only visited the farmhouse after the bodies had been removed, a state of affair which he later complained to police about. 

Nevill's ability to use his damaged arm would have been progressive, he may have had use of it initially but lost the use of it during the fight with his assailant, a fight which by the way happened and is not an invention.

Dr Vanezis has always maintained that he is unable to confirm whether SC was murdered or took her own life.

My understanding of the role of a pathologist/autopsy is that his/her findings will mainly be based on a physical examination of a body not information imparted from others?

The wound to NB's left shoulder caused a comminuted fracture to the upper third  of the humerus.  On this basis I think Dr Vanezis was able to say with some certainty that the wound rendered NB's left arm totally impaired upon impact of the bullet/comminuted fracture.

May I ask what makes you so sure that a fight took place in the kitchen as that is not how I interpret it at all.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2014, 10:30:46 PM »
His arm was broken that means his use of his arm would be impared and limited.  It doesn't mean his hand wasn't able to grip anything or to try.

I don't beleive you didn't read anything else.  You can't refute what I wrote so you engage in your childish exercise to say why you are not going to respond to what I wrote to try to conceal that you can't.

You want ot pretend there was no fight in the kitchen and pretend that Sheila did it so you can go on and on about your mental theories which are all quite absurd but irrelevant so there is no need to burst your bubble about them either.  There is no reason to even get to them since you have nothing at all to refute the evidence that convicted Jeremy. Refusing to face such evidence doesn't refute it.

May I suggest you read all the reports produced by the pathologist Dr Vanezis VERY CAREFULLY! 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2014, 02:22:27 PM »
Dr Vanezis has always maintained that he is unable to confirm whether SC was murdered or took her own life.

My understanding of the role of a pathologist/autopsy is that his/her findings will mainly be based on a physical examination of a body not information imparted from others?

The role of an autopsy is mainly to ascertain cause of death and condition of the body. The cause of death was determined to have been 2 gunshot wounds delivered within seconds of one another. The condition of her body was no wounds, no damaged nails and no foreign blood.

Vanezis was no told about the struggle in the kitchen or that the gun could have had a moderator.  Part of assessing whether she coudl have killed herself.  Had tha thappened he would have heavily leaned towards murder as he did down the road when everything was revealed.  Early on all he relied on was whether she potentially could have fired the gun 2 times and have reached the trigger.  He said while the 2 shots gave him some concern he could not say it was impossible. He found no evidence to say it was definitely suicide and could not have been murder.

He said the nails and so forth were not his expertise others could evaluate those aspects.

Others did evaluate those aspects and they all crush you.

1) Sheila had dexterity problems even before being diagnosed with Schizophrenia.  Those dexterity problems only worsened on her medication.  She was not taking countering agent which would have mitigated some of the parkinson's like motions she engaged in.  Worse though, without the countering agent she was over sedated and unlikely to have been able to do much, the oversedation limited her activities a great deal. 

2) If she were in a rage out of control she would have been even more wild in her actions not more skilled.  Not only does that present a problem for firing 25 shots without missing (which even anezis said would mean she had to be very skilled wiht the weapon to accomplish such), loading the wepaon with her dexterity problem and in the rage combined would result in her crashing her nails against the magazine and damaging them.  Moreover, she would have had to touch the lead tips of the bullets which would discolor her fingers in addition to resulted in detectable elevated lead levels.  At trial an expert handled the bullets loading them before the jury and showed his hands having visible discoloration and discussing the elevated levels detected consistently in testing.

3) There is zero evidence Sheila ever fired the weapon and zero that Sheila had any experience with any other semi-automatic weapons.  Living on a far contianing shotguns doesn't even mean one will know how to fire shotguns.  But that would not help make one skilled in using a semi-auto which operates differently.  People assume you just load  amagazine and shoot but that is not how it works.  The initial round must be manually fed from the magazine into the chamber or the gun will not fire a bullet.  After that the operation of the weapon feeds the bullets itself so it is a one time thing.  Sheila would not have even know to chamber a round let alone how.  Forget having the ability to land 25 rounds she would not have gotten off a shot.  Vanezis was not told that she had never used such weapon ever and did not thus address such in his autopsy report.  This is what the firearms experts discussed.

4) During the struggle in the kitchen a barefoot Sheila would have cut her feet on the broken ceiling lamp glass and broken crockery.  She also would have had some abrasions and cuts or th elike on her hands in addition to brekaing hnails from battering Nevill.  Wildly bashing things with an object when one has long nails results in damage to them. Her hand would have been exactly where the wood stock broke and therefore some damage would have resulted unless she had on protective gloves.

5) There was zero evidence on her body or clothing of having shot or beaten anyone.  No high velocity spatter or medium velocity spatter from the victims though such would have been present on her clothing had she comitted the murders.  That was not Vanezis's province to test her clothing for spatter or GSR so did not figure into the autopsy. Nor the fact that her hands exhibited no evidence of having loaded the weapon.  So no evidence she loaded the weapon (no elevated lead levels on her hands), none she fired it (no GSR on her clothing or hands) and no evidence she was near the victims when they were shot/beaten (no spatter).   

6) The moderator was clearly used in the kitchen and still used when Sheila was shot because her blood was inside

Advances in blood analysis tell us she was shot while seated propped up against something and moved flat after she was dead.  After being moved flat a pool of blood formed on the floor.  A bible was placed in that pool of blood.  Someone opened and closed the bible while the blood was still wet.  After her death SHeila could not have put the moderator away, moved her body flat, or opened an dclosed the bible in her blood.  Someone else was there and killed eveyrone quite clearly.

Since there is so much evidence that established Sheila did nothing you want to refuse to discuss such and address only the very limited information Vanezis worked off of at autospy to assess whether Sheila could have done it.       

What you are trying to do is obvious and invalid bordering on dishonest so a wastea of time and just harms your credibility.


The wound to NB's left shoulder caused a comminuted fracture to the upper third  of the humerus.  On this basis I think Dr Vanezis was able to say with some certainty that the wound rendered NB's left arm totally impaired upon impact of the bullet/comminuted fracture.

WHich fails in the least to dent my assertion that he still could have tried to use his left hand and has no bearing at all with anything I mentioned since it dusccusse dhim using his right hand which you have no ability at all to refute so keep pretending he was a 1 armed man to avoid having to admit your claims are all absurd abd baseless.

 
May I ask what makes you so sure that a fight took place in the kitchen as that is not how I interpret it at all.

I already told you countless times. ANd you even spent time asking about the height of the gun and light to try to pretend there was some way she could have done it without engaging against Nevill. You know the basis you jsut can't dent it.

Your interpretation is little more than you living in denial that it happened. You have no absis for your opinion at all other than the desire to believe it didn't happen because the fact it did compeltely crushes you.

Your intepretation that she was out of control so smashed things and knocked them over and wildy bashed Nevill while he was passed out is absurd.  You have no evidence at all to suggest that happened you simply made it up.

How did they get in the kitchen in the first place?  The killer fired 11 shots in the bedroom and then the gun was empty.  At that point either Nevill ran away to the kitchen with the killer chasing him or the killer ran down to get more bullets and reload and Nevill chased the killer to try to prevent relaoding.

It woudl have taken some time for the wounds suffered int he bedroom to knock Nevill out.  Otherwise he would not have even made it to the kitchen to begin wih.  His wounds were the broken arm, graze wounds, piece of his lip shot off and jaw shattered.  Untreated the wounds could have allowed him to bleed to death but clearly he didn't and pathologists all say he could have and did struggle with his killer.

The light was broken as the gun was struggled over by 2 tall men holding it up and down with the moderator attached fighting over control of it not a 5'7" girl holding the gun like an axe above her head. The scratched to the mantle were caused by the moderator zigzagging as contol of the gun was fought over not walking too close the the mantle and scratching it in that manner which would be a lateral mark simply and so wound the gun falling it would be a vertical mark not zig zagging all around.

Nevill didn't goin there ot just let his killer reload in peace or  go in there with the killer on his tale to simply let the killer kill him in peace he went to get a weapon.  If he wanted to use a phone he could have locked himself in the upstairs office where the 3rd phone was.

The killer didn't beat Nevill because he was passed out, the killer beat Nevill to be able to reload the gun in peace.  If Nevill passed out the killer would simply have reloaded and shot him to death. 

The killer broke Nevill's nose, gave him 2 black eyes and Nevill had defensive wounds on his arm indicating he tried to block the blows.  His watch was torn off in the process.  Your suggestion the killer beat his arms as he lay passed out are absurd. The killer bashed his head in with the rifle by bashing the stock into his head repeatedly.  The butt was forced against the metal of the rifle and a piece broke off exactly where the killer would have been holding it. The killer's hand would have been damaged by that and that is regardless of whether he was unconscious or not by that point. Jeremy mentioned to Sheila a glove being torn off and if anything it was during that break when it happened.  Only gloves would save someone from getting some kin dof scratch or cut from that.

Your suggestion that Sheila was simply going crazy breaking things in the kitchen and beating a knocked out Nevill is absurd.  Nothing was knocked over or broken in any other room. No one else was beaten.  If she did breka everything and run around on it she would have cut her feet anyway so you have no evidence at all to establish she was even in there as a bystander.  Your theory is not based on evidence but simply a pathetic attempt to get around the evidence by pretending it doesn't exist.

Nevill is the one Freddie claimed calmed Sheila down from the worst episode he ever saw. She was off her medicide and out of control and as soon as she saw Nevill she instantly became calm and spoke coherently.  The suggestion she would decide to beat him and only him, do so after he was unconscious and break everything in that room and only that room is absurd. You have no medical support at all he would walk in the kitchen and collapse unconscious let alone that she would beat his limp body.

Anyone with an ounce of integrity and honesty will admit there was a struggle in the kitchen where the killer beat Nevill severely until unconscious so the killer could reload the gun and shoot him to death.



 

 

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2014, 10:56:33 PM »
The role of an autopsy is mainly to ascertain cause of death and condition of the body. The cause of death was determined to have been 2 gunshot wounds delivered within seconds of one another. The condition of her body was no wounds, no damaged nails and no foreign blood.

Vanezis was no told about the struggle in the kitchen or that the gun could have had a moderator.  Part of assessing whether she coudl have killed herself.  Had tha thappened he would have heavily leaned towards murder as he did down the road when everything was revealed.  Early on all he relied on was whether she potentially could have fired the gun 2 times and have reached the trigger.  He said while the 2 shots gave him some concern he could not say it was impossible. He found no evidence to say it was definitely suicide and could not have been murder.

He said the nails and so forth were not his expertise others could evaluate those aspects.

Others did evaluate those aspects and they all crush you.

1) Sheila had dexterity problems even before being diagnosed with Schizophrenia.  Those dexterity problems only worsened on her medication.  She was not taking countering agent which would have mitigated some of the parkinson's like motions she engaged in.  Worse though, without the countering agent she was over sedated and unlikely to have been able to do much, the oversedation limited her activities a great deal.

Where is the evidence SC had dexterity problems.  Do you have any expert evidence to this effect?  Or is it based on AE's claims that SC was unable to pour tea in a cup; put beans on test and learn to drive?  Look at the photo of SC with the rifle and note the manicured/varnished nails, plucked eyebrows and shaved legs.  All these tasks require manual dexterity. Look at other photos and see full face make-up skilfully applied.  SC was mother to two just turned 6 year old sons who would require help with dressing eg buttons, zips, tying shoelaces which again require manual dexterity.

2) If she were in a rage out of control she would have been even more wild in her actions not more skilled.  Not only does that present a problem for firing 25 shots without missing (which even anezis said would mean she had to be very skilled wiht the weapon to accomplish such), loading the wepaon with her dexterity problem and in the rage combined would result in her crashing her nails against the magazine and damaging them.  Moreover, she would have had to touch the lead tips of the bullets which would discolor her fingers in addition to resulted in detectable elevated lead levels.  At trial an expert handled the bullets loading them before the jury and showed his hands having visible discoloration and discussing the elevated levels detected consistently in testing.

The shots were all close range with many near contact or contact.  Difficult to miss.  Where does Dr V say she would need to be skilled with firearms? 

Nails are made of keratin which is one of the toughest biological properties.  SC was a young mother living alone in a busy city.  In the course of her everyday activities eg childcare, housework, cooking, shopping, travelling on public transport in London she would have subjected her nails/vanish to just as many hazards as loading and firing a weapon.  Are you able to provide any evidence from ballistics to confirm that had SC fired the said weapon 25 times she would have caused damage to her nails/vanish?

Any lead/discolouration would be washed off by showering.

3) There is zero evidence Sheila ever fired the weapon and zero that Sheila had any experience with any other semi-automatic weapons.  Living on a far contianing shotguns doesn't even mean one will know how to fire shotguns.  But that would not help make one skilled in using a semi-auto which operates differently.  People assume you just load  amagazine and shoot but that is not how it works.  The initial round must be manually fed from the magazine into the chamber or the gun will not fire a bullet.  After that the operation of the weapon feeds the bullets itself so it is a one time thing.  Sheila would not have even know to chamber a round let alone how.  Forget having the ability to land 25 rounds she would not have gotten off a shot.  Vanezis was not told that she had never used such weapon ever and did not thus address such in his autopsy report.  This is what the firearms experts discussed.
DB states in the following "Coupled with the fact that she hadn't had any experience with guns [reluctantly adds] or very little".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i2CjYDJGTo      @ 6.20 in

SC no doubt spent time as child with NB walking around the fields shooting.  SC was a farmers daughter.  Children pick up things without having to be sat down and shown.  You don't need to be a nuclear physicist to load the said rifle and fire it.  SC was from a birth family of academics and privately educated you seem to want  to think of her as someone with learning difficulties.

4) During the struggle in the kitchen a barefoot Sheila would have cut her feet on the broken ceiling lamp glass and broken crockery.  She also would have had some abrasions and cuts or th elike on her hands in addition to brekaing hnails from battering Nevill.  Wildly bashing things with an object when one has long nails results in damage to them. Her hand would have been exactly where the wood stock broke and therefore some damage would have resulted unless she had on protective gloves.


Even if we assume that the broken crockery was not caused by the raid team, as per soc pics it amounted to just a few large pieces.  The glass lampshade was unlikely to be crystal glass and again perhaps a 2/3 pieces?  Unless it was in her path she would simply avoided it.  You realise that NB was also barefooted and he too had no cuts to his feet.  You have no idea when and how the stock broke.  To claim it would cause hand damage is absurd.

5) There was zero evidence on her body or clothing of having shot or beaten anyone.  No high velocity spatter or medium velocity spatter from the victims though such would have been present on her clothing had she comitted the murders.  That was not Vanezis's province to test her clothing for spatter or GSR so did not figure into the autopsy. Nor the fact that her hands exhibited no evidence of having loaded the weapon.  So no evidence she loaded the weapon (no elevated lead levels on her hands), none she fired it (no GSR on her clothing or hands) and no evidence she was near the victims when they were shot/beaten (no spatter).


All removed by showering with stained clothes in the buckets.

6) The moderator was clearly used in the kitchen and still used when Sheila was shot because her blood was inside


I don't believe that the silencer ever left the gun cupboard on that fateful night.  Her blood may have been inside and if it was then I believe it was deliberately contaminated by EP with blood from SC's sample handed to EP by Dr V.

Advances in blood analysis tell us she was shot while seated propped up against something and moved flat after she was dead.  After being moved flat a pool of blood formed on the floor.  A bible was placed in that pool of blood.  Someone opened and closed the bible while the blood was still wet.  After her death SHeila could not have put the moderator away, moved her body flat, or opened an dclosed the bible in her blood.  Someone else was there and killed everyone quite clearly.

Since there is so much evidence that established Sheila did nothing you want to refuse to discuss such and address only the very limited information Vanezis worked off of at autopsy to assess whether Sheila could have done it.       

What you are trying to do is obvious and invalid bordering on dishonest so a waste of time and just harms your credibility.

Which fails in the least to dent my assertion that he still could have tried to use his left hand and has no bearing at all with anything I mentioned since it dusccusse dhim using his right hand which you have no ability at all to refute so keep pretending he was a 1-armed man to avoid having to admit your claims are all absurd and baseless.


Why do you think NB only had linear wounds to his right arm?

I already told you countless times. And you even spent time asking about the height of the gun and light to try to pretend there was some way she could have done it without engaging against Nevill. You know the basis you just can't dent it.

Your interpretation is little more than you living in denial that it happened. You have no basis for your opinion at all other than the desire to believe it didn't happen because the fact it did completely crushes you.

Your interpretation that she was out of control so smashed things and knocked them over and wildly bashed Nevill while he was passed out is absurd.  You have no evidence at all to suggest that happened you simply made it up.

How did they get in the kitchen in the first place?  The killer fired 11 shots in the bedroom and then the gun was empty.  At that point either Nevill ran away to the kitchen with the killer chasing him or the killer ran down to get more bullets and reload and Nevill chased the killer to try to prevent reloading.


Given the shot NB received on the stairs ie downward it would seem SC followed NB downstairs.  Why did NB head for the kitchen?  He thought he could continue the conversation he started with JB before he run upstairs when he heard SC firing shots?  To escape and raise the alarm and to deter JB from entering?

It would have taken some time for the wounds suffered in the bedroom to knock Nevill out.  Otherwise he would not have even made it to the kitchen to begin with.  His wounds were the broken arm, graze wounds, piece of his lip shot off and jaw shattered.  Untreated the wounds could have allowed him to bleed to death but clearly he didn't and pathologists all say he could have and did struggle with his killer.


Dr V states NB  put up a "spirited defense".  He does not mention a "struggle".

The light was broken as the gun was struggled over by 2 tall men holding it up and down with the moderator attached fighting over control of it not a 5'7" girl holding the gun like an axe above her head. The scratched to the mantle were caused by the moderator zigzagging as contol of the gun was fought over not walking too close the the mantle and scratching it in that manner which would be a lateral mark simply and so wound the gun falling it would be a vertical mark not zig zagging all around.


If you want to claim the above you need to rule SC out by providing the following measurements to the nearest mm:

Height from kitchen floor to lowest point of lampshade
Height of SC
Arm length/reach of SC
Length of rifle with and without silencer (Now kindly provided by Myster)

I believe EP fabricated the scratches after the tragedy.

Nevill didn't go in there or just let his killer reload in peace or  go in there with the killer on his tale to simply let the killer kill him in peace he went to get a weapon.  If he wanted to use a phone he could have locked himself in the upstairs office where the 3rd phone was.

The killer didn't beat Nevill because he was passed out, the killer beat Nevill to be able to reload the gun in peace.  If Nevill passed out the killer would simply have reloaded and shot him to death. 

The killer broke Nevill's nose, gave him 2 black eyes and Nevill had defensive wounds on his arm indicating he tried to block the blows.  His watch was torn off in the process.  Your suggestion the killer beat his arms as he lay passed out are absurd. The killer bashed his head in with the rifle by bashing the stock into his head repeatedly.  The butt was forced against the metal of the rifle and a piece broke off exactly where the killer would have been holding it. The killer's hand would have been damaged by that and that is regardless of whether he was unconscious or not by that point. Jeremy mentioned to Sheila a glove being torn off and if anything it was during that break when it happened.  Only gloves would save someone from getting some kin dof scratch or cut from that.


You don't know when and how the stock was damaged.  How could SC have told  JB anything?

Your suggestion that Sheila was simply going crazy breaking things in the kitchen and beating a knocked out Nevill is absurd.  Nothing was knocked over or broken in any other room. No one else was beaten.  If she did break everything and run around on it she would have cut her feet anyway so you have no evidence at all to establish she was even in there as a bystander.  Your theory is not based on evidence but simply a pathetic attempt to get around the evidence by pretending it doesn't exist.


The other rooms you refer to were bedrooms and the stairs.  Not too much to break in those rooms.  The other victims were perhaps not beaten as they didn't try to  resist either verbally or physically.

Nevill is the one Freddie claimed calmed Sheila down from the worst episode he ever saw. She was off her medicine and out of control and as soon as she saw Nevill she instantly became calm and spoke coherently.  The suggestion she would decide to beat him and only him, do so after he was unconscious and break everything in that room and only that room is absurd. You have no medical support at all he would walk in the kitchen and collapse unconscious let alone that she would beat his limp body.


Those with disorganised attachments are capable of extreme rage, aggression and violence as a result of the initial trauma. 

Anyone with an ounce of integrity and honesty will admit there was a struggle in the kitchen where the killer beat Nevill severely until unconscious so the killer could reload the gun and shoot him to death.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 01:19:28 AM by Admin »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2014, 06:11:38 PM »
By George you finally got it.

Where is the evidence SC had dexterity problems.  Do you have any expert evidence to this effect?  Or is it based on AE's claims that SC was unable to pour tea in a cup; put beans on test and learn to drive?  Look at the photo of SC with the rifle and note the manicured/varnished nails, plucked eyebrows and shaved legs.  All these tasks require manual dexterity. Look at other photos and see full face make-up skilfully applied.  SC was mother to two just turned 6 year old sons who would require help with dressing eg buttons, zips, tying shoelaces which again require manual dexterity.

Hand eye coordination/depth perception required to drive and shoot accurately is not quite the same as applying makeup. Though we have no idea if she pained her own nails or not even someone with Parkinson's can do that it simply will take longer and be more messy than the average woman.

My sister-in-law didn't help her kids do any of the things you mentioned ever and not because she was unable she was just too lazy and made my nieces and nephew fend for themselves early on in life. You seem to be assuming she did more than we know (though these menial tasks could be accomplised by someone with dexterity issues since time is not of the essence, trying to laod a gun before someone comes to while in a rage very queckly shaking and doing so without chipping nails is hard to imagine for anyone honest) If we go by what the boys told Colin she didn't help them much and they felt neglected. How much of that they made up we don't know though the part about her being vacant and ignoring people and the like seems to be a common observation.   

Her odd behavior was diagnosed as being over sedated.  We don't have much of a frame of reference to assess how she was with her kids before she was in such condition.       

In any event the hand eye coordination of shooting is far different and if you have tremors like is typical of patients on Haldol it simply is going to be worse.

What is most amusing to me is how the wealth of information about how schizophrenics are unable to plan and carry out killings like this is completely ignored though you care so much supposedly about the health issues.  All you really care about is broadcasting your silly psychology theories and that requires the pretense Sheila did it.

The shots were all close range with many near contact or contact.  Difficult to miss.  Where does Dr V say she would need to be skilled with firearms?


People can and often do miss at close range.  Particularly people who never fired a gun before or the particular gun before.  People with dexterity issues only makes it even worse.  Nevill was moving around during some of the shots and 2 such shots were fired several feet away. 

Only one wound was determined to be a contact wound- Sheila's fatal shot.  Only one wound on each of the parents was assessed to even possibly have been close enough to result in drawback though even each of these wounds was seen as not likely to have been fired so close.  Most wounds were not as close as you want to pretend.  How is it that people firing wildly into crowds right next to them manage to miss so much?  Firing wildly often results in misses even if you are close. 

Firing wildly is not going to result in tight groupings like in the head of the twins and Nevill. Vanezis is the one who assessed the wounds and noted that even based on the distance of the shots someone would need to be skilled with the wepaon.

There is no evidence Sheila ever fired a gun period, no evidence Sheila ever fired a gun like the murder weapon let alone the murder wepaon.  The first semiauto weapon ever on the farm was the murder weapon which was purchase November 30, 1984 so only months before the murders.

She would not know she needed to chamber a round let alone know how, that alone woudl have floiled her liek it did Lynette Fromme when she tried to kill US president Ford. She would not know how to release the magazine.  She certainly would not have known how to load 11 rounds in the magazine. The killer went into the master bedroom with it loaded to capacity (11 rounds) shooting June 7 times and Nevill 4.  Shooting wildly in a rage she would not have been able to hit every time. 

You want to live in some fantasy land to pretend using a gun is just easy and instictive and she did it instead of actually looking at all the evidence.

The shots were close enough that she would have had high velocity spatter on her clothing and body though and of course would have had medium velocity spatter from Nevill's beating.

No problem you say she washed and changed her clothes though such woudl make no sense at all, there are no examples of that happeneing ever outside of ritualistic killings and there are no clothes with spatter and GSR that she could have changed out of.  That alone means you ar esunk because the clothes woudl have to be there that she change dout of.  To prove this you need the clothes that have spatter and GSR.  She would have needed to be wearing gloves to avoid leaving her prints in blood somewhere and to avoid damage to her hands.  Why would she wear them and where are they if she did?

What about the broken glass from the lampshade and broken crockery on the floor did she have magic feet?

The only way you can pretend she did it is by inoring all the evidence and making up things that make no sense and are not supported by any evidence at all.

Also ignoring the moderator evidence and insisting there was a giant conspiracy without any evidence and ignoring how her body had been moved and the bible opened and closed in her blood by the killer.

All so you can pretend she did it and then tell people about your silly psychology claims.
 
Nails are made of keratin which is one of the toughest biological properties.  SC was a young mother living alone in a busy city.  In the course of her everyday activities eg childcare, housework, cooking, shopping, travelling on public transport in London she would have subjected her nails/vanish to just as many hazards as loading and firing a weapon.  Are you able to provide any evidence from ballistics to confirm that had SC fired the said weapon 25 times she would have caused damage to her nails/vanish?

Another straw argument.  That seems all that Jeremy defenders are capable of.  I explain how her nails would break from during the struggle, especially when beating someone with a rifle and would chip from loading the magazine unless a female is very careful in how she did such and you talk about the firing of the gun.

As I mentioned on the blue board I know someone who broke her nail wile firing a gun.  Such happened only because she was careless and messing aorund.  Her finger slipped and she pulled the trigger with her nail instead of finger.  It broke. If a female pushes her figer against the trigger guard hard enough it could break too. If Sheila were wildly firing could she have chipped or broken her nails in one of these ways?  Yes.  How likely?  I don't know it depends on how wild and out of control she would be.

I care about the braeing because that is where she would have been left with cuts and scratches that would have for sure been found on her dead body and would have resulted in broken nails.  It is well documented that women chip and break nails during physical altercations but especially when wielding objects like the rifle.

For some reason Jeremy supporters keep imagining someone grabbing the gun by the barrel and swinging it like a sledge hammer.

1) the knurled end of the moderator would have scraped the killer
2) the iron sights would have scratch or cut the killer eithe rby the victim grabbing the weapon and pulling it in which case it would slide until the sights were against the hand of the killer and/or from the gun sliding and moving as the killer bashed it against something.  The barrel provides a poor grip. 
3) the gun would be top heavy holding it from the barrel with would make it unwieldy that not only would make it easy to fall out of the killer's hand when swinging it around worse it makes it easier to take away from the killer.
4) Had this actually happened then the stock would not have broken in the manner it did.  The stock broke by the wood stock being pushed against the metal receiver.  A piece sheered off because of the pressure between the buttplate and the metal receiver. If wielded in the manner claimed then the side of the stock would have been hit.  Had the side been used instead of the buttplate then it would not have broken the way it did.  Teh most likely break when using it in such manner is for it to break from the inside out.

The stock is only held on with a screw.  If you remove the trigger guard scre you can pull the stock off.  The receiver had a metal conical projection sticking off the rear.  The stock has a hole cut in it so it can slide onto this projection.  The trigger guard screw keeps it from coming off on its own. When the side of the stock is used as a hammer where is the pressure?  The pressure and tension is the wood around the hole being forced against the metal projection. So it will crack the stock from the hole outward hole.  It's not going to sheer a piece off the way it sheered.  That is indicative of the motion from real of the stock to front.

5) Instead of the stock breaking there would be a chance of the barrel being damaged or breaking away from from the rifle.  The gun breaks down here is the barrel:



The barrel slides into the receiver. Note the small portion of the barrel that slides in.

Wielding it like a sledge hammer has a good chance of ripping it out of the receiver.  If it is not ripped out it could instead warp the barrel or bend it which could be catastrophic if you then try to fire the weapon afterwards.

Since the barrel was not damaged, did not come free from the receiver and the stock did not break from the inside out it is obvious it was not wielded like a bat.   The damage indicates the back of the stock was being used when the stock broke and the person wielding it would have hand their hand in the narrow area of the stock in order to use the rifle in such manner and would have been damaged unless gloves were worn. 

Jeremy knew the gun broke down and how fragile the barrel was and also would not have gottena good grip from the barrel and his father could then have taken it away so he would not have used it as a hammer he would have used a butt stroke against his father and hat is how it broke- a butt stroke. If he really did lose his glove as he told Sheila then the most likely time for that would have been when the stock broke that would be what yanked it off. 
 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli