The timings of Jeremy's calls to Julie and to the police.

[Holly Goodhead]

He says he called Witham first. Although there is no evidence of this, as no one answered. Chelmsford were then called, who were miles away.

Why don't you write and ask him? 

Caroline has engaged in communication with JB and he appears to have been quite amenable to answering her queries.

 

[Holly Goodhead]

A poster on Blue who engages with Jeremy said he manages the OS. Wonder if he really has got a loyal band of followers that contribute towards the OS.

I've no idea who any of these people are.  Or whether they post on Blue.  From what I've read on Blue it appears JB does the following?

I wonder who the OS is aimed at and how much traffic it attracts?  I think our hobby is a little esoteric Adam.  If you did a survey across a representative sample of the great British public I reckon it would show a very low awareness of JB let alone his case.

[Holly Goodhead]

Bang on, Tim.

Bamber says he left a loaded gun on the settle, Sheila just happens to have a psychotic episode on the very same night...bullshit.
Would Nevile allow a loaded gun to be left laying around with two 6 yr old boys in the house?....nope!
Neville didnt make any phone call Bamber.... Fact!

We only have the word of a convicted killer as to what went on in WHF that night, and i dont believe a word of it.
God.. This case bores me to death at times.
Its all been discussed, over and over and over again YAWN

As far as I can see JB has never claimed he left a loaded gun out?  He claims he removed the round from the breach and put it in the magazine.  He then left the magazine on the settle and the unloaded rifle was left leaning up against a wall (both in the hall).  Even if one of the adults didn't return the rifle and magazine to the gun cupboard it would need someone to attach the magazine to the rifle in order to fire a shot. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5632.msg200222#msg200222

If JB was attempting to 'set the scene' surely he would make a big play on SC's frame of mind.  As far as I can see he doesn't.  His initial comments from his early WS's:

"No one appeared distressed and everyone appeared happy".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5631.0;attach=4566

"Whilst  I was there Sheila did not say anything, make any objections or agreements.  She just appeared vacant".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5632.0;attach=4570

[Holly Goodhead]

Maldon or Tiptree police stations are both closer. Wonder why he called Witham police station first?

Time/Miles as per AA route planner to Tolleshunt D'Arcy:

                       Minutes          Miles

Chelmsford       0.39                         21.1
Maldon             0.20                           7.2
Tiptree             0.10                           3.8
Witham            0.27                          11.1

So it appears he made contact with the stations furthest away!  Suspicious indeed  &%+((£  I assume all stations are linked up communication wise and whichever station was contacted the nearest patrol car would attend?

[adam]

Time/Miles as per AA route planner to Tolleshunt D'Arcy:

                       Minutes          Miles

Chelmsford       0.39                         21.1
Maldon             0.20                           7.2
Tiptree             0.10                           3.8
Witham            0.27                          11.1

So it appears he made contact with the stations furthest away!  Suspicious indeed  &%+((£  I assume all stations are linked up communication wise and whichever station was contacted the nearest patrol car would attend?

Thank you.

[simong]

@ April. I do understand your point but he got no answer from his phonecall to Witham either. I would have been less suspicious if he had called Tiptree first. I doubt he would have got an answer from there either as its a tiny satellite station. I think most people upon receiving a call in the middle of the night from their father, saying their sister, who Jeremy 'claimed was a nutter' was going crazy with a gun would ring 999. Calling Witham and Chelmsford seems very odd behaviour to me.

@Andrea, I would assume that the use of guns on the farm would be a regular occurrence and Nevill probably would have assumed the gun had been made safe and stored correctly. JB Leaving the gun exposed and loaded seems highly irresponsible at best.

@Adam, I don't really understand pathology but am very confused as to why no time of death could be established. Do you have any ideas?

@Holly, Thanks for posting up the the mileage and driving times. It is great to see you still here and i hope that you are still be treated with the respect your opinions deserve.

[Holly Goodhead]

Thank you.

You're welcome.

I have no idea how these things work but would it make any difference which station was called or 999?  As far as I'm aware police cars are out and about on calls, going to or coming from incidences and general patrols?  I would have thought the communication was such that the location of a patrol car can be identified by some central communication centre for the whole of Essex and the nearest car would be sent regardless of which station it was attached to?  It would seem a waste of resource in terms of manpower/hours and money to send a car from say Chelmsford when one could be sent from say Witham? 

In terms of policing WHF will fall under a polcing area and surely a patrol car would be sent from that area unless a patrol car from a neighbouring area happened to be in the vicinity regardless of which station is called.     Sometimes farms/farmhouses have strange boundaries.  I have farmer friends where the farm in terms of postal district and dialling code falls under one county but in terms of policing it falls under a different county.

I think the reason JB didn't call 999 was he wanted to keep it low-key as he read it as a manageable domestic and was aware of NB's low regard for the local police, position as a magistrate and preference for family privacy particularly with regard to SC's mental illness.  JB probably thought if he called a local station they would send a car that would cruise past.  Knock on the door and confirm everything was ok.  999 would be lights flashing, sirens and a loud hailer.  He may have thought 999 had the potential to make SC worse.  On one occasion SC thought she was being followed by the CIA.    If you read JB's WS's he refers to NB fielding late night calls from SC where she claimed to be the Virgin Mary, Joan of Arc and leader of the CND.  JB was aware that SC became out of sorts late at night/early morning and NB managed these occasions.  The fact that NB supposedly phoned JB saying SC is going crazy and has one of my guns would have been a level up but not that unusual based on her history.  Also she had no previous history of serious violence.

I've just checked the postcode for WHF and it appears it falls under Maldon police station but that closes at 6pm.  I'm sure it has all changed over the last 30 years.

Station for WHF postcode CM9 8AA

http://www.essex.police.uk/my_neighbourhood/maldon_district/great_totham/great_totham-3.aspx

Essex stations and opening times

https://www.essex.police.uk/contact_us/my_police_station.aspx

[Caroline]

@ April. I do understand your point but he got no answer from his phonecall to Witham either. I would have been less suspicious if he had called Tiptree first. I doubt he would have got an answer from there either as its a tiny satellite station. I think most people upon receiving a call in the middle of the night from their father, saying their sister, who Jeremy 'claimed was a nutter' was going crazy with a gun would ring 999. Calling Witham and Chelmsford seems very odd behaviour to me.

@Andrea, I would assume that the use of guns on the farm would be a regular occurrence and Nevill probably would have assumed the gun had been made safe and stored correctly. JB Leaving the gun exposed and loaded seems highly irresponsible at best.

@Adam, I don't really understand pathology but am very confused as to why no time of death could be established. Do you have any ideas?

@Holly, Thanks for posting up the the mileage and driving times. It is great to see you still here and i hope that you are still be treated with the respect your opinions deserve.

I agree, it is odd.

[Holly Goodhead]

@ April. I do understand your point but he got no answer from his phonecall to Witham either. I would have been less suspicious if he had called Tiptree first. I doubt he would have got an answer from there either as its a tiny satellite station. I think most people upon receiving a call in the middle of the night from their father, saying their sister, who Jeremy 'claimed was a nutter' was going crazy with a gun would ring 999. Calling Witham and Chelmsford seems very odd behaviour to me.

@Andrea, I would assume that the use of guns on the farm would be a regular occurrence and Nevill probably would have assumed the gun had been made safe and stored correctly. JB Leaving the gun exposed and loaded seems highly irresponsible at best.

@Adam, I don't really understand pathology but am very confused as to why no time of death could be established. Do you have any ideas?

@Holly, Thanks for posting up the the mileage and driving times. It is great to see you still here and i hope that you are still be treated with the respect your opinions deserve.

Hello Simong.  Thank you for your kind words.  I think posters on the JB board appreciate a token pro JB poster 

In answer to your Q re why Witham it appears from PC West's trial testimony that this was the station that covered WHF.  The car sent was attached to Witham.  I guess this is the reason JB called Witham initially?  JB was unable to get through on the public number but the control room at Chelmsford had a means of contacting Witham.  Maybe I am missing the point but all this seems pretty straightforward to me.  Mind you I have had a few drinks hic  *&*%£  Even if JB called 999 I still think it would effectively have been the same process and car.  He just wasted a few minutes looking up a number as opposed to dialling 999.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=170.0;attach=317

[Caroline]

Hello Simong.  Thank you for your kind words.  I think posters on the JB board appreciate a token pro JB poster 

In answer to your Q re why Witham it appears from PC West's trial testimony that this was the station that covered WHF.  The car sent was attached to Witham.  I guess this is the reason JB called Witham initially?  JB was unable to get through on the public number but the control room at Chelmsford had a means of contacting Witham.  Maybe I am missing the point but all this seems pretty straightforward to me.  Mind you I have had a few drinks hic  *&*%£  Even if JB called 999 I still think it would effectively have been the same process and car.  He just wasted a few minutes looking up a number as opposed to dialling 999.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=170.0;attach=317

How would Jeremy know that unless he'd done his homework?

[APRIL]

@ April. I do understand your point but he got no answer from his phonecall to Witham either. I would have been less suspicious if he had called Tiptree first. I doubt he would have got an answer from there either as its a tiny satellite station. I think most people upon receiving a call in the middle of the night from their father, saying their sister, who Jeremy 'claimed was a nutter' was going crazy with a gun would ring 999. Calling Witham and Chelmsford seems very odd behaviour to me.

@Andrea, I would assume that the use of guns on the farm would be a regular occurrence and Nevill probably would have assumed the gun had been made safe and stored correctly. JB Leaving the gun exposed and loaded seems highly irresponsible at best.

@Adam, I don't really understand pathology but am very confused as to why no time of death could be established. Do you have any ideas?

@Holly, Thanks for posting up the the mileage and driving times. It is great to see you still here and i hope that you are still be treated with the respect your opinions deserve.

Simong, I don't know how acquainted with the area you are, but Tiptree is a village -albeit the largest in the country, I believe- and Maldon wouldn't have had a ready supply of cars waiting to be called out. Without the possibility of calling up any cars in the area, Witham and Chelmsford usually had cars at their disposal. This MAY be a reason  why he didn't call Tollesbury, which, I believe, at the time WOULD have been the nearest police station to WHF - which I think is marginally closer to Tollesbury than D'Arcy but in 1985 may not have had more by way of police vehicle that than a suped up hairdryer or a push bike. Chelmsford, of course, is police HQ for the area.

[Holly Goodhead]

How would Jeremy know that unless he'd done his homework?

In an earlier post you agreed with Simong that JB phoning Witham was odd.  Had you done your homework you would have read PC West's trial testimony and realised that Witham was the station that covered WHF.  How can this be regarded as "odd"? 

If you read AE's WS's she makes reference to the police on a couple of occasions where they were discussed at OCP meetings in connection with children messing around on bales of hay and security at OCP.  Witham police are made ref to.  JB was present at these meetings.  NB was a magistrate on the Witham bench.  He also had recent problems by way of a threat which the police were involved in.  Farmers are usually familiar with their local station as they are more vulnerable to crime in terms of isolated location and having more to nick both internally and externally by way of family heirlooms, guns and farm equip.  Against this backdrop it would seem inconceivable that JB was unaware that Witham covered WHF.

[Holly Goodhead]

Did NB ask JB to "Please come over..."?

JB's initial WS states NB called and said:

"Sheila's gone crazy, she has got the gun".  Nothing more; nothing less.

In his trial testimony PC West quotes sentences which are similar but have subtle differences as follows:

"Please come over at once".  Your sister has gone crazy".

"Please come over.  Your sister has gone crazy".

"Please come over.  Your sister has gone crazy and has the gun".

Did NB use these words?  Did JB relay these words to the police?  Or are they words that PC West used by writing them down but in fact were never said by NB or JB?

I have always thought the word "Please" seems odd in such a situation.

I know from management trng I've done in the past it is notoriously difficult to get people to use the exact words of others and record them accurately.  PC West had no reason not to use the exact words used but a whole range of things could have prevented him from doing so eg tiredness, distracted, poor listening skills, memory and recall especially if he didn't write the message down straight away.

PC West's trial testimony appears to me to be full of inconsistencies and with the rather WET Mr Rivlin cross examining him it goes nowhere fast!!!

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=170.msg1779#msg1779

[Caroline]

Did NB ask JB to "Please come over..."?

JB's initial WS states NB called and said:

"Sheila's gone crazy, she has got the gun".  Nothing more; nothing less.

In his trial testimony PC West quotes sentences which are similar but have subtle differences as follows:

"Please come over at once".  Your sister has gone crazy".

"Please come over.  Your sister has gone crazy".

"Please come over.  Your sister has gone crazy and has the gun".

Did NB use these words?  Did JB relay these words to the police?  Or are they words that PC West used by writing them down but in fact were never said by NB or JB?

I have always thought the word "Please" seems odd in such a situation.

I know from management trng I've done in the past it is notoriously difficult to get people to use the exact words of others and record them accurately.  PC West had no reason not to use the exact words used but a whole range of things could have prevented him from doing so eg tiredness, distracted, poor listening skills, memory and recall especially if he didn't write the message down straight away.

PC West's trial testimony appears to me to be full of inconsistencies and with the rather WET Mr Rivlin cross examining him it goes nowhere fast!!!

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=170.msg1779#msg1779

If West wrote it down, Jeremy must have said it - there was no reason for him to just add the sentence.

[Caroline]

In an earlier post you agreed with Simong that JB phoning Witham was odd.  Had you done your homework you would have read PC West's trial testimony and realised that Witham was the station that covered WHF.  How can this be regarded as "odd"? 

If you read AE's WS's she makes reference to the police on a couple of occasions where they were discussed at OCP meetings in connection with children messing around on bales of hay and security at OCP.  Witham police are made ref to.  JB was present at these meetings.  NB was a magistrate on the Witham bench.  He also had recent problems by way of a threat which the police were involved in.  Farmers are usually familiar with their local station as they are more vulnerable to crime in terms of isolated location and having more to nick both internally and externally by way of family heirlooms, guns and farm equip.  Against this backdrop it would seem inconceivable that JB was unaware that Witham covered WHF.

I have read West's trail testimony, many times - what I think is 'odd; is that he didn't call 999