Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.

[misty]

He was employed in a consultancy role for the development of the Forensic Canine Program.

But do you know how many times Grime & his own dogs were used on cases? It's one thing being in a team of people, another being employed as a sole handler on a case.

[Brietta]

But do you know how many times Grime & his own dogs were used on cases? It's one thing being in a team of people, another being employed as a sole handler on a case.

I do not think Eddie ever worked in America ... but I believe Martin Grime and Morse worked there ... on how many cases, I've no idea.

[DCI]

But do you know how many times Grime & his own dogs were used on cases? It's one thing being in a team of people, another being employed as a sole handler on a case.

None by the looks of things Misty!

[misty]

Thank you both for that.
I wonder exactly where he got his "200 cases & never wrong" figure from?
There really is so much wrong with all this and it does make you wonder what the wider agenda really was back in 2007.

[Wonderfulspam]

Doesn't come in thru the door seals though.  The door seals are designed and manufactured to be waterproof even in mighty storms, splashing thru puddles and going at 90 mph.

They are not going to let the slightest whiff of a smell out. 

And neither will the metal of the car



There is something weird about Eddie alerting there.  Really weird.

Ever sat in a car with the air vents closed & the windows up?

Did you suffocate?

No, you didn't.

[stephen25000]

Doesn't come in thru the door seals though.  The door seals are designed and manufactured to be waterproof even in mighty storms, splashing thru puddles and going at 90 mph.

They are not going to let the slightest whiff of a smell out. 

And neither will the metal of the car



There is something weird about Eddie alerting there.  Really weird.

So sadie, when the car is 'sealed', nothing can come in or out of the car in the way og gases  ?

How do you breathe sadie ?


 

[Wonderfulspam]

There were 3114km on the milo. when the McCanns hired the car.
How many door openings do you think took place?
Their winters are also comparable with UK winters, are they not?

'The examination of the interior of the vehicle was initiated, register was also taken of the kilometres clocked at 9329 km'

Did they really drive 6000 km?

Blimey!

[Benice]

The dogs passed the body farm tests with flying colours. That's why the FBI wanted them.  This is what they're friend says:

Harrison also suggests that we use the skills of two totally remarkable dogs: the first an EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog), achieves outstanding performance in the detection of human cadaver odour; the second, a CSI dog (Crime Scene Investigation) is capable of smelling the tiniest trace of blood, knowing how to recognise its human origin. To convince us of their capability and the extraordinary work carried out by these very special detectives in the course of over 200 investigations, he screens a video for us, showing their training and their intervention on the ground.

Eddie has been involved in a great number of cases, helping the police to resolve a good many riddles, thanks to his sense of smell. Even if the body has been moved, objects the body has touched have been contaminated by its odour, especially porous materials, fabrics, the upholstery in cars, etc. And that odour, Eddie knows how to recognise out of a thousand.

Keela, a scenes of crime specialist, is capable of locating particles of blood even after a place has been cleaned with chemical products or bleach. Sometimes, the residues are so microscopic they are missed by the instruments of the forensic police, as sophicticated as they are, and it's impossible to harvest them without taking all of what they are on.

Eddie is always the first to be brought onto a site. Once he has discerned the odour that he knows so well, it's Keela's turn to go into action, on the lookout for the slightest whiff of blood. The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cavaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it's probably there that the death occurred.

The dogs' CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI's "Body Farm," the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies. (TOTL)

If a dog alerts at a spot where nothing can be seen by the naked eye - or even detected by forensic equipment - then how does Grime know it's not a false alert?   Surely he can only assume?

And if the dogs are THAT sensitive - then why were there no alerts in the other 9 nine cars or the other apartments?   Keeping in mind that even bleach does not get rid of the scent - I do not believe that no-one had ever spilt even the tiniest drop of blood - in any of those other places at any time during the previous years.

As I believe the dogs were that good -  then IMO if they had been made to search for the same length of time in the other places as they were in McCann related places, more alerts would have definitely resulted.   So what would have happened then?

IMO-  because of the quite obvious extra emphasis which Grime placed on searching McCann related sites as opposed to anywhere else - both with regard to time spent (and his own body language around the Renault)  -  the whole test was badly flawed - because it was plainly biased. 
 
 

[Carew]

Back to ........."give the dog enough time and / or cuing, he will alert eventually anywhere the handler consciously or unconsciously wants him to."

 ......whilst at the same time, cleverly "negative cuing" to prevent any alerts to residues of pork products, lavatories, bathrooms, bins and ovens............ or historical splodges of this that or the other .

Yep.........as another poster observed..........There`s a lot of sniffable alertable fear about.

[Benice]

Back to ........."give the dog enough time and / or cuing, he will alert eventually anywhere the handler consciously or unconsciously wants him to."

 ......whilst at the same time, cleverly "negative cuing" to prevent any alerts to residues of pork products, lavatories, bathrooms, bins and ovens............ or historical splodges of this that or the other .

Yep.........as another poster observed..........There`s a lot of sniffable alertable fear about.

So you don't believe that any of the scents within the dogs abilties to detect even in miniscule proportions -(blood for instance,) had ever been in any of the other cars or any of the other apartments?   Really?

Turn it round the other way.     If Grime had let Eddie move on from the Renault after spending the same amount of time on it as he had on the other cars (less than 30 secs max) then there were have been NO alerts at the Renault in that timespan.      But unlike with the other cars he kept calling Eddie back - even after he had moved away more than once   - and it was over 2 mins before Eddie finally alerted.

There is one car (no 2?) which Grime does not even require Eddie to do a full circle of before moving on.

The bias was unmistakeable - as was the fact that the Renault clearly belonged to the McCanns.   That fact alone - made the whole test flawed before it even started IMO.

[Alice Purjorick]

So sadie, when the car is 'sealed', nothing can come in or out of the car in the way og gases  ?

How do you breathe sadie ?


 

We have done this one before at least twice!
Why do you think the faithful think the answer will be different this time?
If a car is airtight how does the air con work? Like: if you are blowing air in it has to go out somewhere otherwise the car becomes pressurised. Then the door really will fly open 
Gimme strength.

[Brietta]

We have done this one before at least twice!
Why do you think the faithful think the answer will be different this time?
If a car is airtight how does the air con work? Like: if you are blowing air in it has to go out somewhere otherwise the car becomes pressurised. Then the door really will fly open 
Gimme strength.

Indeed we have probably done this one a lot more than twice ... so maybe you can show us the Renault model that has porous door seals and maybe even an air vent or something in the front  doors just so that the car doesn't turn into a bomb when the air con unit is operating?
Does it work along the same principle as a pressurised plane ... or do they have porous door fittings too?

Really quite interested in how blood scent leaches through a padded metal door and an airtight seal and you seem to be the person to ask.

[stephen25000]

Indeed we have probably done this one a lot more than twice ... so maybe you can show us the Renault model that has porous door seals and maybe even an air vent or something in the front  doors just so that the car doesn't turn into a bomb when the air con unit is operating?
Does it work along the same principle as a pressurised plane ... or do they have porous door fittings too?

Really quite interested in how blood scent leaches through a padded metal door and an airtight seal and you seem to be the person to ask.

Tell me brietta, how you would breatheina car if it was airtight ?

[Carew]

So you don't believe that any of the scents within the dogs abilties to detect even in miniscule proportions -(blood for instance,) had ever been in any of the other cars or any of the other apartments?   Really?

Turn it round the other way.     If Grime had let Eddie move on from the Renault after spending the same amount of time on it as he had on the other cars (less than 30 secs max) then there were have been NO alerts at the Renault in that timespan.      But unlike with the other cars he kept calling Eddie back - even after he had moved away more than once   - and it was over 2 mins before Eddie finally alerted.

There is one car (no 2?) which Grime does not even require Eddie to do a full circle of before moving on.

The bias was unmistakeable - as was the fact that the Renault clearly belonged to the McCanns.   That fact alone - made the whole test flawed before it even started IMO.

You don`t refute my observations about the gist and purpose of your "discussion" then ?

Point out instances all you will..........what the "discussion" all boils down to is what I posted earlier.

That`s what it`s all about isn`t it?

As is the ultimate purpose of all the doggie-woggie threads.

Maybe it`s time to "confront" Mr Grime about your (collective) concerns about his work.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

It would seem that there were concerns over the training and monitoring of sniffer dogs in general - during Eddie and Keela's time with the police force.

Quote from Skye.

"Police sniffer dogs used to find missing people and dead bodies "urgently" need better training and monitoring, according to an official report.

The Government's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) said specialist victim recovery dogs are not trained to approved standards, with no way of gauging their competence.........

The report added the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an inquiry".  "There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concluded.

The review uses a kidnap investigation to highlight how dogs have tied up valuable police time.  The animals detected human remains in old furniture that had been bought from houses where the owner had died.  The use of victim recovery, or cadaver dogs, has proved to be controversial in a number of high-profile cases in recent years.  A South Yorkshire Police spaniel called Eddie was said to have sniffed out the "scent of death" at the Haut de la Garenne children's home in Jersey and the apartment from which Madeleine McCann disappeared in Portugal.  But in both cases nothing more was found and South Yorkshire Police say Eddie is no longer working with them.

Sniffer dogs hindered the police probe into Shannon Matthew's disappearance

Victim recovery dogs from four different police forces were used during searches for kidnapped schoolgirl Shannon Matthews in Dewsbury in West Yorkshire in 2008.  The dogs found evidence of dead bodies, but officers later discovered the corpses were nothing to do with her disappearance.  "The properties searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died,"  according to the NPIA report....."

Interesting to note that in this report (reposted here to try and discredit the work of victim recovery and crime scene dogs) what we actually have is a correct alert to cadaver odour. In the Shannon Matthews case the alert was verified. It was discovered the "scent of death" was due to the corpse of the previous owner on furniture that was sold on the second hand market. In other words the dogs were doing exactly what they are trained to do - and doing it with verifiable accuracy.

It's also factually incorrect to state "nothing more was found" in the Madeleine McCann case. Human cellular material was found in both the hire car and in apartment 5A. This material was then sent to the FSS laboratory in the UK for forensic investigation. Low copy DNA results were "inconclusive" in terms of proving these human samples belonged to Madeleine McCann.