Author Topic: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.  (Read 181085 times)

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Offline faithlilly

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #690 on: July 05, 2019, 11:04:24 AM »
Because in tests with cadaver dogs we know that although cadaveric VOCs might start to be produced four minutes after death it takes 85 minutes before a trained and specialised dog can successfully detect the odour with a very high degree of accuracy. Therefore a corpse would have had to have been in the apartment for 85 minutes or more for there to be enough odour for Eddie to alert as he did

Has the rate of cadaver odour development ever been tested in a child? Is the rate quicker because of the smaller body mass and smaller organs ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Billy Whizz Fan Club

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #691 on: July 05, 2019, 11:09:40 AM »
No he could have been sniffing the scent of blood that had been on dirty washing,  either McCann's or one of the other families.

Good point - just one problem. There was no blood there. Keela didn’t alert there. You would have to know how long blood odour remains present in a cupboard if a blood spot on a shirt is placed in the cupboard then removed? I’ve not seen anything that claims the dogs are good enough to detect in such a scenario!!!
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 11:13:15 AM by Billy Whizz Fan Club »

Offline Billy Whizz Fan Club

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #692 on: July 05, 2019, 11:11:42 AM »
Has the rate of cadaver odour development ever been tested in a child? Is the rate quicker because of the smaller body mass and smaller organs ?

I haven’t come across anything but there are thousands of interesting forensic science articles out there on human decomposition. Happy searching!!

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #693 on: July 05, 2019, 11:17:34 AM »
Your explanation didn’t satisfy me as a lay observer.
That's fine... Glad I didn't explain it all again... The point is... There is an explanation which some accept and some dont

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #694 on: July 05, 2019, 11:18:01 AM »
But your hypothesising that the cadaver smell was coming from Mrs Fenn’s apartment yet, as far as we know, cadaver odour does not ‘seep’ through walls and further there is no evidence any of Mrs Fenn’s furniture was second hand or that her husband had not died in hospital or indeed that she had transferred any of the clothing/items associated with him at his death to her new home.

Would you care to answer my question re-the rest of the tapas group’s lack of cadaver contamination?

A proper investigation/test would seek to eliminate the hypothesis I have put forward by entering the dogs into unrelated neighbouring apartments to rule out any contamination AND check on the history of 5A by way of contents and people traffic. 

I find it hard to believe that Mrs Fenn's apt didn't contain some items she owned jointly with her late husband.  They were married for a very long time and the elderly and those of a certain generation tend to get quite attached to their belongings.  For all we know he may have died in his bed which was subsequently transferred to Mrs Fenn's.  Alternatively Mrs Fenn may have struck up conversation with the owners of 5A and they ended up taking some of the furniture jointly owned by Mrs Fenn and her late husband.   

I'm not an architect, plumber or construction worker but I believe plumbing in apartments runs vertically as opposed to horizontally.  Only the Oldfields were connected to Mrs Fenn and that was horizontally as opposed to vertically. JT/ROB and Paynes were all one removed I believe and in any event all horizontally.

How do you explain the contaminated furniture in the case of Shannon Matthews?  Do you think people died in their beds/chairs/sitting at tables and this furniture was subsequently transferred to the houses that were searched or what?  In any event the odour clearly lingers on items that have come into contact with corpses. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #695 on: July 05, 2019, 11:22:28 AM »
Has the rate of cadaver odour development ever been tested in a child? Is the rate quicker because of the smaller body mass and smaller organs ?

I know from an in-depth study of Bamber/White House Farm that the rate of decomposition is dependent upon many variables:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/20961790.2018.1489362
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #696 on: July 05, 2019, 11:33:57 AM »
Has the rate of cadaver odour development ever been tested in a child? Is the rate quicker because of the smaller body mass and smaller organs ?

I'm not sure it would make that much difference... Thinking about it logically...

Offline Lace

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #697 on: July 05, 2019, 11:35:18 AM »
Good point - just one problem. There was no blood there. Keela didn’t alert there. You would have to know how long blood odour remains present in a cupboard if a blood spot on a shirt is placed in the cupboard then removed? I’ve not seen anything that claims the dogs are good enough to detect in such a scenario!!!

Cadaver dogs can alert to the scent of blood even if the object the blood was on is removed.

Snipped -  Unfortunately, in such a situation the trier of fact may easily be misled as to both the accuracy and precision of the dog's actions: Accuracy in the sense that the dog (depending upon its level of training) may be reacting to something other than residual scent from decomposed human tissue; precision in that the dog may be reacting correctly to the scent of decomposed human tissue, but imprecise in the sense that the dog is not differentiating between whose decomposed human tissue is giving the scent. Further, there may be legitimate reasons for the scent being there: someone may have been injured and left bloody clothing there, someone may have left a used sanitary napkin, etc. Our research demonstrates that residual scent from decomposed human tissue persists in a closed building for many months at levels sufficient to cause a trained dog to alert.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 11:38:20 AM by Lace »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #698 on: July 05, 2019, 11:58:32 AM »
'How long can a trace of blood remain at a scene and be detected by the CSI dog''

During both training and operations, the CSI dog correctly located and signalled the presence of blood from 1960. This is not at all surprising. If enough blood is present so that the dog can recognize its odour, he will locate it and alert to its presence. There is no time restriction as regards the recognition of the odour by the dog. Blood, however, is subject to deterioration such as time and other natural processes such as dilution due to rain and other reactive chemical agents.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

Blood dog Keela did not alert to all of Eddie's alerts, therefore, Eddie was alerting to a different odour.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #699 on: July 05, 2019, 12:28:17 PM »
Perhaps you can justify your claim... You can't because you've made the same claim before... You are considering blood... Not cadaver... I've got a good memory
SIL is allowed to.  A living person could be bleeding, and the blood decomposes and a cadaver dog alerts to it.  Blood is the body part in that case, and the amount of time for the decomposition is from when the bleeding occurred right through till they used the cadaver dogs at the scene.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #700 on: July 05, 2019, 12:30:35 PM »
Sils under the impression that dried blood produces cadaver odour... I know because there were 100 pages on the topic six months ago
That was then.  Things may have changed.
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John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline barrier

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #701 on: July 05, 2019, 12:33:56 PM »
Has the rate of cadaver odour development ever been tested in a child? Is the rate quicker because of the smaller body mass and smaller organs ?

I've asked this before and no one took it up,but I wonder logically whether it would be the same,surely cells or whatever that produce the cadaver alert would be be the same in adults as well as children.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #702 on: July 05, 2019, 12:36:33 PM »
SIL is allowed to.  A living person could be bleeding, and the blood decomposes and a cadaver dog alerts to it.  Blood is the body part in that case, and the amount of time for the decomposition is from when the bleeding occurred right through till they used the cadaver dogs at the scene.

Then the blood dog would to...I've already said clearly sil was
Referring to blood... Not cadaver odour from a cadaver




Offline Mr Gray

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #703 on: July 05, 2019, 12:37:15 PM »
That was then.  Things may have changed.

Nothing has changed... Sil is saying exactly the same thing

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.
« Reply #704 on: July 05, 2019, 12:39:40 PM »
That's entirely the wrong ball game.

It's the length of time it would have taken for both Eddie and Keela to alert.

If an incident had occurred in 5A months prior to MBM's disappearance would E&K alert? Yes!

If the incident related to MBM's disappearance, would E&K alert months later? Yes!

If an incident occurred in 5A after MBM's disappearance, would E&K alert to that when deployed?  Yes!

It's the deployment date that is important.
That is true.  Reasons for the alerts could have been prior, during McCann's stay in 5A or after they left.

But what VS was wanting, correct me if I'm wrong, is to understand how cadaver odour could have developed in the case of MBM based on a time frame.

Then the blood dog would to...I've already said clearly sil was
Referring to blood... Not cadaver odour from a cadaver

I can live with that.
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.