Author Topic: Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!  (Read 72182 times)

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Offline slartibartfast

Re: Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!
« Reply #90 on: February 04, 2016, 03:59:57 PM »
I'll be happy to pick up the coffin story, as I am quite interested in how this tale came about.  Does anyone have a link to the Portuguese newspaper and/or TV article?  I would like to see something closer to the original wording than the Liverpool Echo.  Or is there a further source in English?

What I don't understand is why people think it's not feasible?
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Carana

Re: Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!
« Reply #91 on: February 04, 2016, 04:04:33 PM »
I'll be happy to pick up the coffin story, as I am quite interested in how this tale came about.  Does anyone have a link to the Portuguese newspaper and/or TV article?  I would like to see something closer to the original wording than the Liverpool Echo.  Or is there a further source in English?


Gonçalo Amaral has no doubts that Maddie is dead.

"The girl's parents had a key to church, in that church a vigil took place a month after the disappearance. According to information, the child's body could have been placed in the coffin, at the feet of the woman that was later cremated".


http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2014/06/hidden-evidence.html

Offline Carana

Re: Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!
« Reply #92 on: February 04, 2016, 04:08:23 PM »
What I don't understand is why people think it's not feasible?

Is there any evidence to support it?

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!
« Reply #93 on: February 04, 2016, 05:09:32 PM »
What I don't understand is why people think it's not feasible?
It requires the retrieval of the body from wherever it was being stored before.

It requires the transport of the body to the church, whether on foot or by car.

It requires the transfer from a car into the church, if a car was used.

If the coffin was closed, it requires the opening of the coffin and the closing of the coffin.

I assume, but do not know, that the coffin would be open, to enable the body to be viewed.  If so, concealing Madeleine's body in it was one of the riskiest parts of this operation.  After all, who else had a key to the church to allow such a clandestine operation to be carried out?

Are people undergoing cremation permitted to be within a Catholic or Anglican church?  I saw a programme last week about, amongst other things, the first crematorium in Britain.  It arose because atheists did not agree with the Anglican church that bodies should always be buried.

As Luz is in a Catholic land, I would need to see evidence that those to be cremated are permitted in the church.

Since this clandestine operation would have had to have been done at night, I would need to understand why a coffin intended for cremation was permitted to remain there overnight.  If it was because a funeral service had been conducted, then surely the coffin should have been removed after that?  If it was because a funeral service was to be conducted the next day, how did the McCanns know the coffin was there?

Did the McCanns know the coffin was to be cremated?  If so, how?

Does the cremation angle matter a jot?  From the role play of the McCanns as villains, I mean.  If they had stuck the body into a burial coffin (and a burial coffin seems much more likely in that church), would it make a difference to them if the operation was successful? By successful, I mean they got the body into the coffin undetected, and the coffin was buried without incident.  Was someone going to dig that coffin up again, and check just in case? Or for another reason?

The cremation angle matters in Amaral's tale though.  It is necessary from that angle that the coffin (or coffins) around that time cannot be identified and dug up.  The coffin has to be cremated to stymie this act.

Now let's turn to this source.  How and when did the source get this information.  Directly, by observing the act?  Permitting the act to continue I would be fairly sure is illegal.  I cannot see how the parents of a missing child can place her corpse in someone else's coffin, with the intent of disposing of the body, and permitting the act to continue be legal.  So an observer was duty bound to stop the act or, as a minimum, report the act to the police in a prompt manner, certainly before any burial or cremation.

Perhaps the source was told this by another person, after the cremation had occurred?  One simply goes up the food chain to repeat exactly the same argument.  This new person had to observe act, and fail to stop it or report it.

Let's refocus on the source.  If credible, such a source has damning evidence against the McCanns.  Enough to sink them in a criminal case.  Get a witness to give testimony that the McCanns did this and the McCanns are toast.

Bear in mind that a witness in Portugal is obliged to answer all questions truthfully, therefore a wipe-out of the McCanns was guaranteed.  No such wipe-out happened.

This idea is one of the myths surrounding Madeleine McCann.  They are easy to create, and easy to tell.  They gain credence from many, who retell them as the truth or even as a possible truth.  Examine them carefully and they just don't stand up to scrutiny.

The idea is nonsense.  Madeleine did not go into someone else's coffin and get cremated.  The McCanns did not put her body in someone else's coffin in a clandestine operation in the middle of the night.
What's up, old man?

Offline Carana

Re: Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!
« Reply #94 on: February 04, 2016, 05:14:55 PM »
It requires the retrieval of the body from wherever it was being stored before.

It requires the transport of the body to the church, whether on foot or by car.

It requires the transfer from a car into the church, if a car was used.

If the coffin was closed, it requires the opening of the coffin and the closing of the coffin.

I assume, but do not know, that the coffin would be open, to enable the body to be viewed.  If so, concealing Madeleine's body in it was one of the riskiest parts of this operation.  After all, who else had a key to the church to allow such a clandestine operation to be carried out?

Are people undergoing cremation permitted to be within a Catholic or Anglican church?  I saw a programme last week about, amongst other things, the first crematorium in Britain.  It arose because atheists did not agree with the Anglican church that bodies should always be buried.

As Luz is in a Catholic land, I would need to see evidence that those to be cremated are permitted in the church.

Since this clandestine operation would have had to have been done at night, I would need to understand why a coffin intended for cremation was permitted to remain there overnight.  If it was because a funeral service had been conducted, then surely the coffin should have been removed after that?  If it was because a funeral service was to be conducted the next day, how did the McCanns know the coffin was there?

Did the McCanns know the coffin was to be cremated?  If so, how?

Does the cremation angle matter a jot?  From the role play of the McCanns as villains, I mean.  If they had stuck the body into a burial coffin (and a burial coffin seems much more likely in that church), would it make a difference to them if the operation was successful? By successful, I mean they got the body into the coffin undetected, and the coffin was buried without incident.  Was someone going to dig that coffin up again, and check just in case? Or for another reason?

The cremation angle matters in Amaral's tale though.  It is necessary from that angle that the coffin (or coffins) around that time cannot be identified and dug up.  The coffin has to be cremated to stymie this act.

Now let's turn to this source.  How and when did the source get this information.  Directly, by observing the act?  Permitting the act to continue I would be fairly sure is illegal.  I cannot see how the parents of a missing child can place her corpse in someone else's coffin, with the intent of disposing of the body, and permitting the act to continue be legal.  So an observer was duty bound to stop the act or, as a minimum, report the act to the police in a prompt manner, certainly before any burial or cremation.

Perhaps the source was told this by another person, after the cremation had occurred?  One simply goes up the food chain to repeat exactly the same argument.  This new person had to observe act, and fail to stop it or report it.

Let's refocus on the source.  If credible, such a source has damning evidence against the McCanns.  Enough to sink them in a criminal case.  Get a witness to give testimony that the McCanns did this and the McCanns are toast.

Bear in mind that a witness in Portugal is obliged to answer all questions truthfully, therefore a wipe-out of the McCanns was guaranteed.  No such wipe-out happened.

This idea is one of the myths surrounding Madeleine McCann.  They are easy to create, and easy to tell.  They gain credence from many, who retell them as the truth or even as a possible truth.  Examine them carefully and they just don't stand up to scrutiny.

The idea is nonsense.  Madeleine did not go into someone else's coffin and get cremated.  The McCanns did not put her body in someone else's coffin in a clandestine operation in the middle of the night.

I agree that it doesn't make sense... but then few of Amaral's spoutings do.

Offline Brietta

Re: Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!
« Reply #95 on: February 04, 2016, 06:00:54 PM »
I agree that it doesn't make sense... but then few of Amaral's spoutings do.

This one at least has been allowed to die the death ... apparently even his most rabid supporters have declined repetition ... so implausible all it reveals is desperation and embarrassment.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!
« Reply #96 on: February 04, 2016, 06:13:47 PM »
This one at least has been allowed to die the death ... apparently even his most rabid supporters have declined repetition ... so implausible all it reveals is desperation and embarrassment.

And yet there are those, 'moderators' to boot (what a splendid idea!), who want to 'explore' it.

I despair ....

Offline Brietta

Re: Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!
« Reply #97 on: February 04, 2016, 06:51:52 PM »
I'll be happy to pick up the coffin story, as I am quite interested in how this tale came about.  Does anyone have a link to the Portuguese newspaper and/or TV article?  I would like to see something closer to the original wording than the Liverpool Echo.  Or is there a further source in English?

Polícia inglesa esconde provas no caso Maddie
Gonçalo Amaral diz que informações fornecidas por uma mulher que viu pai de Maddie a caminhar em direção à praia desapareceram dos ficheiros.


06/16/2014 07:
34 British police seek evidence in the case Maddie
Gonçalo Amaral says information provided by a woman who saw the father of Maddie walking towards the beach disappeared from the files.


Poucos dias depois de Madeleine McCann ter desaparecido do aldeamento turístico Ocean Club, na Praia da Luz, Algarve, a 3 de maio de 2007 (há sete anos), surgiu uma testemunha: uma turista britânica que disse ter visto o pai da menina a andar na praia à noite. A revelação foi feita pelo ex-coordenador da PJ Gonçalo Amaral, que acrescenta que os dados dessa testemunha desapareceram. "Tentámos recuperar esse testemunho e os documentos que se encontravam na esfera britânica e simplesmente desapareceram. Ainda hoje não sabemos quem é essa pessoa e onde está", disse Gonçalo Amaral. Hoje, o ex-coordenador da PJ de Portimão vai encontrar-se novamente com Gerry e Kate no Palácio da Justiça, em Lisboa, uma vez que vai continuar o julgamento em que o casal britânico pede 1,2 milhões de euros de indemnização pela publicação do livro 'Maddie, A Verdade da Mentira', da autoria de Gonçalo Amaral, em que defende a tese de que os pais são os responsáveis pelo desaparecimento da menina e pela ocultação do cadáver (ver caixa). Gonçalo Amaral não tem dúvidas de que a Maddie está morta. "Os pais da menina tinham a chave da igreja e nessa mesma igreja foi realizado um velório um mês depois do desaparecimento. Segundo algumas informações, a criança bem podia ir nos pés dessa mulher que ia ser cremada", explicou ainda Gonçalo Amaral.

A few days after Madeleine McCann disappeared from the holiday village Ocean Club, in Praia da Luz, Algarve, on 3 May 2007 (seven years ago), a witness appeared: a British tourist who said he saw the girl's father to walk the beach at night. The revelation was made by former PJ coordinator Gonçalo Amaral, who adds that the data of the witness disappeared. "We tried to recover that testimony and documents that were in the British sphere and simply disappeared. Even today we do not know who that person is and where it is," said Gonçalo Amaral. Today, the former coordinator of the PJ of Portimão will meet again with Gerry and Kate at the Palace of Justice in Lisbon, since it will continue the trial in which the British couple asks EUR 1.2 million compensation for publication the book 'Maddie, the Truth of the Lie', written by Gonçalo Amaral, in which defends the thesis that parents are responsible for the girl's disappearance and the concealment of the body (see box). Gonçalo Amaral has no doubt that Maddie is dead. "The girl's parents had the key to the church and in the same church was held a funeral a month after the disappearance. According to some reports, the child could well go the feet of the woman who was to be cremated," further explained Gonçalo Amaral.

Ler mais em: http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/nacional/portugal/detalhe/policia-inglesa-esconde-provas-no-caso-maddie.html&usg=ALkJrhgrbk-t9PWxFF1OBhenHF0bOfnbcg
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!
« Reply #98 on: February 04, 2016, 06:54:03 PM »
Maybe we should have a discussion about "Loot" by Joe Orton   ?>)()<
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!
« Reply #99 on: February 04, 2016, 06:54:13 PM »
What I don't understand is why people think it's not feasible?

then there must be a lot you do not understand...I find your statement astonishing

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!
« Reply #100 on: February 04, 2016, 07:09:16 PM »
And yet there are those, 'moderators' to boot (what a splendid idea!), who want to 'explore' it.

I despair ....
Speaking personally, I have no issue with moderators who wish that such an idea should be explored.  I did check beforehand that this topic is not in the myths section of the forum.  It is not.

I have heard this idea before, not from the Internet.  I believe the source was gossip circulating in Luz.  I did not document the source, so I am unable to prove this.

One can do one of two things with such ideas.  One can take sides, and support or disagree on such a basis.  Or one can plug in some knowledge, some analysis, and come to a reasoned conclusion.

I have no idea what the moderator did in this respect, therefore I will refrain from speculation.

I offered to plug in some knowledge, some analysis, and a reasoned conclusion, if the members of the forum pointed me at more info.  The members pointed me at more info.  I have carried out my offer.

Are we a small step forward as a result?  For reasons I do not wish to divulge at this time, it may become necessary to have a reasonably detailed knowledge of the 'coffin in the church' tale.  Therefore I am grateful to the moderator who raised the issue, and the members who helped me become better informed about this, compared to a rumour doing the rounds of Luz.  This advance may or may not be important.  Time will tell.
What's up, old man?

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!
« Reply #101 on: February 04, 2016, 07:12:28 PM »
then there must be a lot you do not understand...I find your statement astonishing

Instead of one liners why not write out a complete activity list marking each activity you think is impossible*.

* impossible as in "you can't lift a 100Te load with a 50Te crane". Not "ooo errr I think that's impossible", because it suits.
Do that and we can have interesting debate ..........maybe.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!
« Reply #102 on: February 04, 2016, 07:14:01 PM »
Speaking personally, I have no issue with moderators who wish that such an idea should be explored.  I did check beforehand that this topic is not in the myths section of the forum.  It is not.

I have heard this idea before, not from the Internet.  I believe the source was gossip circulating in Luz.  I did not document the source, so I am unable to prove this.

One can do one of two things with such ideas.  One can take sides, and support or disagree on such a basis.  Or one can plug in some knowledge, some analysis, and come to a reasoned conclusion.

I have no idea what the moderator did in this respect, therefore I will refrain from speculation.

I offered to plug in some knowledge, some analysis, and a reasoned conclusion, if the members of the forum pointed me at more info.  The members pointed me at more info.  I have carried out my offer.

Are we a small step forward as a result?  For reasons I do not wish to divulge at this time, it may become necessary to have a reasonably detailed knowledge of the 'coffin in the church' tale.  Therefore I am grateful to the moderator who raised the issue, and the members who helped me become better informed about this, compared to a rumour doing the rounds of Luz.  This advance may or may not be important.  Time will tell.

Right oh!

Take good pictures with your new camera ...

Offline Brietta

Re: Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!
« Reply #103 on: February 04, 2016, 07:30:20 PM »
Speaking personally, I have no issue with moderators who wish that such an idea should be explored.  I did check beforehand that this topic is not in the myths section of the forum.  It is not.

I have heard this idea before, not from the Internet.  I believe the source was gossip circulating in Luz.  I did not document the source, so I am unable to prove this.

One can do one of two things with such ideas.  One can take sides, and support or disagree on such a basis.  Or one can plug in some knowledge, some analysis, and come to a reasoned conclusion.

I have no idea what the moderator did in this respect, therefore I will refrain from speculation.

I offered to plug in some knowledge, some analysis, and a reasoned conclusion, if the members of the forum pointed me at more info.  The members pointed me at more info.  I have carried out my offer.

Are we a small step forward as a result?  For reasons I do not wish to divulge at this time, it may become necessary to have a reasonably detailed knowledge of the 'coffin in the church' tale.  Therefore I am grateful to the moderator who raised the issue, and the members who helped me become better informed about this, compared to a rumour doing the rounds of Luz.  This advance may or may not be important.  Time will tell.

Under no circumstances would I refer to the allegation as an "advance" ... no more so than the "missing data in the British sphere".  If that were so, I find that they must have been tremendously incompetent at cover up if they were careless enough to let Mr Amaral get a sniff of it's existence.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Eleanor

Re: Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!
« Reply #104 on: February 04, 2016, 07:35:35 PM »

He's making up stories like he did in The Cipriano Case.  Anything, no matter how absurd, to give credence to his ridiculous determination to blame The McCanns, mainly Kate McCann.